Who all on this forum-collects militaria?

PzJgr: Just wait till you see the photo of the STUG III I have. At first I thought it could have been A Waffen SS STUG mit a squad of Waffen SS climbing aboard. On further detailed research thopugh (I looked more closely at the STUG Commanders crusher cap) and it has the cloth cockade on it instead of the metal.

I agree with Erich, get some copies made at Kinkos (if you have one) or some place like that. I got 10 made that are bigger than 8X10 for about $17,00 and thats with at least one in color.

 

PzJgr :

I am assuming then that he was a stug kommandeur and possibly racked up a few kills then ?

From the 2nd SS Pz. he was then forming the cadre for the anit-tank Abteilung/Kompanies for Nebelungen Pz Gr Division ? Whoa.....

Erich B.

 

He got injured in 1943 and after he got out of hospital was reassigned to the 12 SS when it was forming. He got another StuGIII Kompanie. After getting injured again in the Ardennes, he was pulled out of hospital in Bavaria along with other HJ members and assigned to the pzjgr abt 38 which was grossly underequipped. They used some PAK40s, anti aircraft guns (not 88s) and the all famous panzerfausts. The Abteilung was actually the size of a kompanie. They picked up stragglers and eventually grew in size but still did not get enough equipment.

 

By the way, upon researching, I found out that there were some famous names assigned to the 38th who formed the 'cadre' you are speaking of. One name is Martin Stange. I believe he came from the 2nd SS. It is always portrayed that the 38th was some hodge podge unit filled with scraps that did not see action. The only truth was that it was understrenght. It had some good folks in it but was lacking in human and material resources. Bout what you would expect in 45.

 

PzJgr :

Looks like you have some good material on your grandfather already. I had heard the same that several well know SS offiziers were in the 38th and that it did see action in the area of Bavaria in April-May of 45 and that it was very much under-equipped. He must have served in the sturmgeschutze abteilung of 12th SS in Normandy from the sounds of it.
I also believe there is at least one book in the German language on the 38th SS Div., but I cannot think of where I have seen or heard of it......the book distributor that is. Possibly JJF in Canada ? Can you pass his name off-list to me ? maybe I can dig up a bit from the 12th SS volumes I have.



Erich B.

 

Yes, he was assigned to a Stug Abt with the 12th. His name is Maxximillian Perez Suarez but signed up as Maxximillian Pertz. He was an SS Sturmbannfuhrer with the 12th. He was a Spanish volunteer. The size of the unit and what he had was told by him. I gathered other info when researching.

 

Very interesting......I was looking through 2 volumes on the 12th SS and there is no mention of the Stug Abteilung during Normandy, just the 3 companies of Panzerjäger Abt. With Hurdlebrink, Wachter and Wöst as Kompanie Kommandeurs. so I am led to presume that he was just at the Ardenne in the Stug. Abt. and not in Normandy ?, or was he in the Pz.Jgr Abt. as a vehicle kommandeur and not a kompanie chef yet ?

Erich B.

 

Thant is pretty impressive-to learn that a Spanish volunteer served with the 12th.

Maybe it should'nt be such a shock after, because at least 6 Americans served in SS Sturmbrigade Langemarck. Kinda makes you wonder really just how many more Amis were in the Waffen SS--let alone all the other servies--Eh?

For a long time, it was believed that only 6-7 Amis were in the Waffen SS as a whole, but I cannot argue with info from SS Langemarcks most decorated soldier.

 

Carl:

Still trying to figure M. Pertz's logbuch though. There doesn't seem to be a stug-Abteilung at all for the 12th SS. For the 2nd SS......YES ! Seems that maybe some things got transcribed wrong in his books ? and of course this was done by accident in all branches of the German armed forces.

Kühl baby !

E.B.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erich Brown:
Very interesting......I was looking through 2 volumes on the 12th SS and there is no mention of the Stug Abteilung during Normandy, just the 3 companies of Panzerjäger Abt. With Hurdlebrink, Wachter and Wöst as Kompanie Kommandeurs. so I am led to presume that he was just at the Ardenne in the Stug. Abt. and not in Normandy ?, or was he in the Pz.Jgr Abt. as a vehicle kommandeur and not a kompanie chef yet ?

Erich B.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't know the breakdown of the organizational staff. I did not go into minute details with my grandfather because at the time of his death, I was 14. This was in 1984. What I do know and what he told me is the he started the war leading a group of antitank guns. When 2nd SS became a pz gren div, he was upgraded to the StuGIII. He lead a group of them. It was not more than 5. After getting hurt in Russia, he was reassigned to the 12SS. He was in Normandy. What exact unit or Abt..I am not sure because again, I did not ask a detailed question such as that. He was assigned to the StugIII again. He lost it in an air attack. Got another one before Ardennes. Lost it when he got hurt. Was reassigned again, this time to the 38th. Because I do not have more detailed information, I am researching and asking questions. If I had kept in touch with my cousin, I would have more photos. The only ones I have are those that he gave me when he was still alive and I thought were cool. If I had more detailed information, I would give it. I am here to learn more about what he did and where he had fought. So when you asked the he must have been with the sturmgeschutz abteilung, I thought you knew what you were talking about and assumed him to be assigned since he did fight in a StugIII. I did not know it was a trick question. Anything else you might find interesting?

 

PzJgr, hold it man ! This was not a trick question...ok. Just trying to find out what exact unit he was in. As I said what he told you and remembered could be different in what actually took place. Sounds weird I know, but I've interviewed 50-60 Luftwaffe pilots and some have said certain things about their staffel/gruppe and even aircraft, and they have been wrong. In one case a pilot flew an Fw 190 A-8 with Sturmstaffel 1 in April-May of 44. When he was transferred into IV.Sturm/JG 3 still flying the Fw 190A-8, he still says that the original a/c with stumstaffel 1 was the same looking a/c that he flew in the later IV. Sturm/JG 3 unit until April of 45. Well I am sorry to say he was shot down more than 4 times in combat, crashed landed another 4 times. From Sturmstaffel 1 to the end of April of 45 in the Sturm unit/JG 3, there were 2 other colour combinations on their Fw 190A-8's.
So you can see what is remembered and what is reality can be deceiving for all of us. heck we weren't there were we ? So, I am looking into the possibilty of your grandfather being a vehicle kommandeur in Stug Abteilung 2 and being wounded and then possibly when transferred to the 12th SS he was another vehicle kommandeur and maybe also trained new Panzerjäger recruits. There is the possiblity that he may have served in a Panzerjäger IV during the Ardenne. Understand, that I am not doubting you, I am asking legitimate questions to try and formulate the background of your grandfathers war-service career. Hey, I might be all wrong, but isn't that why you are doing research on him ? To find out just went on.......and get things correct.



E.B.

 

Well said. Sorry if I took it wrong. I don't mind answering questions. Carl can vouche for that. I just read something else in your question. I wish I had the whole story and all the details. No hard feelings on my side. Thanks for your interest and anything you can dig up would be great.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
Thant is pretty impressive-to learn that a Spanish volunteer served with the 12th.

Maybe it should'nt be such a shock after, because at least 6 Americans served in SS Sturmbrigade Langemarck. Kinda makes you wonder really just how many more Amis were in the Waffen SS--let alone all the other servies--Eh?

For a long time, it was believed that only 6-7 Amis were in the Waffen SS as a whole, but I cannot argue with info from SS Langemarcks most decorated soldier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I asked this very question and he said that the only way to join up with the Germans was through the SS. He did not mind since in his eyes they were the elite. His concern was that he was Spanish. He did speak good German. Some how, another Spanish volunteer showed him how to sign up with the SS. They were aware of him being Spanish. Nevertheless, they signed up but they did encounter discrimination upon assignment to the 2SS. That disappeared after his transfer and because of his change of name upon the initial enlistment.

 

FYI: I dug up the photo of my grandfather and he is wearing his gray wrapper with officer's peaked cap. Cannot tell but the rank should be that of an SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer because he has his wound badge and I know he got that as that rank. I also have a photo of his crew playing cards on top of his StugIII. I will try to get these scanned. Once scanned, can they be attached to the forum?

 

PzJgr :

No problem my friend.......you have done well to aquire the info that you of had. I know it will take time, but I can tell you it will be frustrating and tough, but all the while fun as you pusue your grandfathers career. Take the time and dig into all the research you can. chek around for the traditionsverband representative for the 2nd SS and 12th SS, and hopefully they will be kind enough to give you many reply(s).
I'll keep looking as I know others on this board will.

Glück ab !

E.

 

Dear PzJgr, that was very interesting to read-thanks for sharing it. I have read some about how forign volunteers were treated after enlisting in the Waffen SS.

A famous incident with a forign SS unit happened. A Waffen SS unit had actually mutinied because of the bad treatment they recieved at the hands of the German cadre personnel.

Apparently during their basic training, these future mutineers, apparently faced much in prejudism from the Germans. They were supposedly treated as they would treat the most hated vermin.

The mutineers I am talking about were muslim volunteers.

Well, they only took so much "harsh punishment and discipline" and a large group of these volunteers decided to taks matters into their own hands.

They mutinied and killed several German Officers and NCO's. The mutiny was quickly quelled after several mutineers being killed and wounded in the process.

It is rumored that Himmler was very dissatisfied with the units German cadry personnel because of their supposed mistreatment of the muslims.

Plus since the muslims had killed an X-number of German personnel. One of the first things that happened was that the unit was relieved of their cufftitles and they were destroyed. Then the ones guilty of murder were executed, the rest of the unit was disbanded and sent back home as a dismal failure.

Supposedly a few of the German cadre personnel were reduced in rank, lost their cufftitles and some awards were revoked. Other Germans from this unit were used to start a second muslim SS unit, with strict orders from Himmler about them not being so harsh on the new volunteers.

 

Wow! That is interesting. I didn't not think that any of the German cadre would be disciplined for their actions. That is a twist. Thanks. I just found out a friend has a scanner and can help me with the photos.

 

And on a similiar note but opposite of Carl's, is that there was an excellent Spanish cadre of pilots that served in 15.(span.)/JG 51. At least 40 pilots had from 1 to 8 victories that I know of and somewhere around 150 plus victories were scored from June of 1942 to November/December of 1943. A much respected unit by the rest of JG 51 serving at the time on the Ost Front.

Kühl !

E.

 

Did not know that either. Here all along, I though my grandfather was some kind of freak who volunteered all alone outside the Blue Division.

 

Otto, Carl and others........

please correct me if I am wrong here. Wasn't there also a Spanish Blue division...Infantry ? And it served where? Ost front ?

E.