Who shot down Lancaster DS735 ?

My freind Ray Gulliford was shot down in this aircraft and it would be fantastic if we could ever find out who the German Pilot was.
Here are the details.
Lancaster MkII DS735 of 514 Sqdn.
On Opps to Berlin 30/31 January 1944.
When Ray baled out he landed between Brandenburg and Naune (minus boots)and was immediately captured.

Thanks in advance Mike.

 

Hi.That will be hard to find out. between 20.08 and 20.38 I count 35 Viermots that were claimed by fighters from NJG2, NJG3, NJG5 and NJG6 and almost all of them crashed around Berlin. Do you have more details like the time of the crash and or the type or fighter that shot the Lanc down (Ju88 or Me110?)

 

Hi.
He is convinced that it was upward fireing cannon that got them.I shall ask him tomorrow about the time.Would a German pilot differentiate between Lanc 1s and IIIs and the Hercules engined MkIIs?

Thanks Mike.

 

by this time many LW nfs had the oblique firing cannon behind the cockpit. would the LW crew know 100 % what they were shooting at ? depends on the visibility, did the victim and attacker go into cloud, was the attacker blinded by ground based searchlights or flares ?

as Skip said tough to call it was a very bloody night with attacks and crashes all over the countryside

E ~

 

Here's what I found on the internet:

Lancaster DS735 Information

Type Lancaster Serial Number DS735 Squadron 514 X1D JI-A Operation Berlin Date 1 30th January 1944 Date 2 31st January 1944
Further Information

"Serial Range DS601 - DS852 This aircraft was one of 200 Lancasters ordered from Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft in 1941 and built as Mk.11s from Sep42 to Oct43 with, up to DS627, Hercules V1 engines and the remainder Hercules XV1 engines. DS735 was delivered to No.514 Sqdn Sep43. Took part in the following key Operations: Gardening 3/4Nov43, No.514 Sqdns first Lancaster operation; Berlin 26/27Nov43; Berlin 16/17Dec43; Berlin 23/24Dec43; Brunswick 14/15Jan44; Berlin 27/28Jan44; Berlin 30/31Jan44-Lost When lost this aircraft had a total of 131 hours. DS735 was one of two No.514 Sqdn Lancasters lost on this operation. See: DS706. Airborne 1722 30Jan44 from Waterbeach. Those killed are buried in the Berlin 1939-45 War Cemetery, alongside F/S Mortimer who was killed when Typhoons shot up a PoW column near Gresse, 6 km NNE of Boizenburg 19Apr45. F/L G.J.Chequer RCAF KIA F/S R.L.Gulliford (P2) PoW Sgt J.Carey PoW F/S K.Mortimer PoW F/S E.J.Wallington PoW Sgt R.Montgomery KIA F/S J.L.O'Brien RAAF KIA F/S A.J.Robertson RAAF PoW Sgt J.Carey was interned in Camps L6/357. PoW No.1011, with F/S R.L.Gulliford, PoW No.1096, F/S A.J.Robertson, PoW No.1095, F/S E.J.Wallington, PoW No.1051 and F/S K.Mortimer, PoW No.1094. "

 

Had a chat with Ray and he thinks it was roughly around 20-30 hrs,they were just starting their run in to target.

Mike.

 

found this site ,lost bombers of ww2..

Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers

 

email link from above might be worth a try.. mail@lostbombers.co.uk

 

This confirms the lanc was a victim of the famous Schräge Musik (oblique canon) froma night fighter but unfortunately both the Me and the Ju were fitted with those and the time frame is right in the middle of the 35 Viermots mentionned earlier. Like Erich said idnetification mistakes were common (theystate a Hali for a Lnac and vice vers afor instance, hence the often used term"Viermot" (= 4 engine aircraft). Any idea about the altitude? was there a single burst or several attempts? Was there an attempt of evasive action? All these would give us more hints to help you out

 

They were hit just the once,the rear gunner had spotted it and shouted corkscrew but the pilot did'nt react in time.They were hit in the main tank between the port inner and fuselage and immediately started to burn.Ray say's they were about 19-20,000 feet up.

Thanks Mike.

 

20.000 feet would be the "cruise" altitude for such operations (prior to any potential corkscrew) and the fact that one single burst precisely in one of the most vulnerable parts of the aircraft (the bomb hatch with amno and the gas tanks around them) makes me think of the signature of an experienced Expert.

 

Let's see if this can be narrowed down a bit. This is transcribed verbatim with the exception of links and crew positions added.

From Berlin Detachment/No. 4 MREU Report dated 11 July, 1947:

"Between 21.30 - 22.00 hrs on 30.1.44 a four-engined aircraft which was burning fiercely was seen approaching from easterly direction. The aircraft was losing height rapidly and after passing the village at a low altitude crashed in a field near the road between MUTZLITZ and MARZAHNE approximately one mile S. of the former village.

The aircraft burnt for about an hour and a lot of small ammunition was heard exploding but there were no bomb explosions. The aircraft was almost completely destroyed by fire and two bodies - F/Lt Chequer - pilot

CWGC :: Casualty Details

and F/Sgt O'Brien - MU gunner

CWGC :: Casualty Details

were found in the morning about 100 - 200 yds. away from the aircraft. They evidently tried to bale out but were killed due to insufficient height.

Sgt. Montgomery (W/Op)

CWGC :: Casualty Details

was not killed at the scene of the crash and local inhabitants are certain that no other crew member dead or alive were found in the vicinity of the crash. It is presumed that Sgt. Montgomery baled out but had the great misfortune to fall into Lake BEETZSEE and was drowned. (Lake BEETZSEE is 6 miles away from scene of crash at MUETZLITZ)"

So, that gives some idea of the Lanc's path. However, in the same file:

"F/Sgt (now W/O)Robertson (rear gunner) states the aircraft was hit by flak just before entering the target area and that the aircraft probably crashed near Berlin"

 

I will work on this , I doubt it was Flak. Schräge Musik came from below and by surpirse ,most of the crews did not spot the fighter who hit them.Hence the frequent allusions to Flak fire.

 

I'd have to agree with you, Skipper.

Given that Schräge Musik wasn't implemented on a wide scale until late 1943/early 1944 it can only be presumed that many aircrew mistook it for flak.

 

He remembers seeing the cannon fire going through the wing and felt the aircraft lift.They had a Cookie on board so was that ditched on the way down ?
Mike.

 

SM's were installed in August of 43 and many had them by this date installed, no expert as what you have pointed out in the dramas was the expected area on a BC bomber to view in and hit and then bank away to watch the effects of the fire take hold.

you have in a brief instant described an attack from the rear and below perfectly by a LW NF

 

I've checked in the Nachtjagd Diaries and, as Erich rightly says, this will be a very tough one to pinpoint. It was very much the 'happy time' for the German nightfighters. Between 20:00hrs and 20:38 that evening, no less than 28 four-engined bombers were claimed, the majority over or near Berlin.

Some time ago I researched the loss of JB659 on the same night, but in that case the task was much easier as it was shot down far from Berlin and was almost the last victim that night.

 

What do the diaries say for the 2130 - 2200 timeframe?

 

Three Lancasters, all downed over the Netherlands, and all identified : -

21:49 - JA702 ( 156 Sqn ) by Oblt H-H Augenstein ( 7./NJG1 )
22:12 - JB535 ( 97 Sqn ) by Oblt Heinz Vinke ( 11./NJG1 )
22:15 - JB659 ( 97 Sqn ) by Schnaufer.

 

There goes that theory.

Thanks for looking, Martin.