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#1 Richard

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 04:38 PM

What if Eastern Europe had gone the same way as Russia? They all went communist in the late 1920's early 1930's.

Would this had made Hitler think twice before hitting Russia?

#2 Kai-Petri

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 05:06 AM

It was the ideology and lebensraum he was after so sooner or later he would turn east....
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#3 Sloniksp

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 12:31 PM

I agree with Kai here. Hitler also needed land for Germany to prosper which Western Europe could not provide. I believe Hitler had always been set on Easter Europe and Russia.
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#4 PzJgr

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 01:00 PM

Agreed. The only countries that he did not intend to invade but either had to or in you scenario would have to are Bulgaria, Rumania, and Hungary. These ended up being Hitler's allies. So nothing would have changed. It would not have deterred him
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#5 john1761

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 11:58 PM

Would these coutries be included in the non agression pact of 39 ? If Rummania is communist in the 30's where does Hitler get his oil from ? This shortage would have severly affect Hitler's military build up . I think that if communist uprisings happened in these states post WW1 you would see the feikorps not only fighting in Poland but these countries also. the Wiemar Republic would not have been happy with communist states along its border nor would Britain or France. You might see allied expectionary forces in these countries also.

#6 Za Rodinu

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 07:29 AM

I agree with Kai here. Hitler also needed land for Germany to prosper which Western Europe could not provide. I believe Hitler had always been set on Easter Europe and Russia.


Hogwash!

That is for ideological reasons only. The economical benefit Hitler derived from occupation of France and Benelux was immense in terms of straight pillaging, forced cheap imports, pillaged gold and currency reserves, forced manpower, integration in the German war economy, mineral stockpiles, etc.

"Land" is a nazi red herring, a fallacy. There was plenty of land available for reclamation or improved use within Germany. You're not going to tell me you're swallowing Hitler's and Rosenberg's myths! Nowadays there are plenty more Germans in a reduced area and there was never so much agricultural prouction.

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#7 Kai-Petri

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 08:45 AM

The truth is what it is, but Hitler planned to have huge areas led by his warlords and subhumans as their slaves in the east. Also he was planning to send later on people from the West to the east, like the Dutch, and probably create lebensraum for his Nordic people in the West as well. That was Hitler´s (and Himmler´s) psychotic view of the future.
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#8 Za Rodinu

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 10:06 AM

Psychotic, but also ignorant and antiquated. If he had read any basic economics, starting with the Wealth of the Nations, he would know that there is more to it than simple extent of land, wealth in the modern world is acquired through normal commercial interchange. With the German-Soviet trade agreement he was geting as much basic foodstuffs, raw material and oil as he needed, paying peanuts in exchange.

His vision was medieval, and even that at the stupid version of the Middle Ages. Witness the Hansa, the first capitalist empire was a German creation.

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#9 Kai-Petri

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 10:32 AM

Agreed Za!

And on top of it all both these men, and you could say all the top nazis, really looked like the cream of the Nordic race..How on earth did they end up with the same result?? Not by looking in the mirror anyway!
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#10 Richard

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 11:19 AM

Thanks folks for your answers.

I like to open the oil issue up, what if Russia and Romania cut back on the supple of oil to Germany as they feared what Hitler wrote in his book, seeing Hitler in power puts what he wrote in to in to a possible fact. Russia also limits other supplies which could be used as war materials if Hitler goes to war.

#11 Za Rodinu

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 01:41 PM

I'd say they would have to do something a lot more drastic than that. It also depends on timing, I assume you mean at some point before Barbarossa.

This is complicated because there was already a German military mission in Romania precisely to help keep things stable and pro-German. Imports from the SU were vey important, naturally, but in case they failed there was the rest of Europe, occupied or not, to import from. So I doubt this would be the solution.

Of course, IF the Romanian oil would dry supply were to be entirely cut off, (suppose a successful coup calling in assistance from Soviet forces , unlikely but what ifs are what ifs) then Germany would be in big trouble, but considering the German Army depended almost entirely on horses things would be more or less the same, except for much reduced armoured and motorised activity. Also you can count on a much restrained Luftwaffe as well.

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#12 Sloniksp

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 01:54 PM

I agree Miguel, Hitler certainly would have benefited more from France and other countries. However since the Germans were culturally closer to the west then the east, and viewed the Russians as sub-humans, it was much easier for them to get away with their crimes there and expansion since the Stalin did not sing the Geneva Convention... Wouldnt you agree?

Yes I know im simplifying too much here.....
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#13 Za Rodinu

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 02:00 PM

Yes, you are, but the act remains that in the west so much grief was felt about Oradour and Malmédy, and I ask how many Oradours and Malmédys there were in the East?

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#14 Sloniksp

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 02:14 PM

Im not sure that we disagree here.... All im saying is that Hitler wanted to expand in the east as that is where he wanted the fertile lands. The reasons behind we can only guess.

I guess the point im making is that personally I dont think that the Germans would have ever treated the French and English with the same crueltly as they treated the Ukrainians and the Belarusians. Afterall, it was them along with the Russians which were sub-human and not the western Europeans.
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#15 Richard

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 03:28 PM

OK, let me flesh this new one out a bit. Eastern Europe and Russia see Hitler come to power in 1934 and the alarm bells start ringing and by 1935 they see Hitler is rebuilding his army, so from this point on Russia and Romania puts the screws on the oil by cutting back a good two-thirds of production to Germany and they will not take any kind of German sweet talk.

#16 Slipdigit

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 03:42 PM

I guess the point im making is that personally I dont think that the Germans would have ever treated the French and English with the same crueltly as they treated the Ukrainians and the Belarusians. Afterall, it was them along with the Russians which were sub-human and not the western Europeans.


You are right, Slava, that was his opinion. I would daresay that once he finished off the Jews, he may have started in on killing Slavic peoples, or at the very least, starved them to death through forced labor. What are your thoughts?

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#17 Sloniksp

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 03:52 PM

You are right, Slava, that was his opinion. I would daresay that once he finished off the Jews, he may have started in on killing Slavic peoples, or at the very least, starved them to death through forced labor. What are your thoughts?


My point exactly!

OK, let me flesh this new one out a bit. Eastern Europe and Russia see Hitler come to power in 1934 and the alarm bells start ringing and by 1935 they see Hitler is rebuilding his army, so from this point on Russia and Romania puts the screws on the oil by cutting back a good two-thirds of production to Germany and they will not take any kind of German sweet talk.


This is a little complicating.... remember that Germany got to where it was thanks to Russia. Russia not only gave Germany oil but also had its airforce built on Soviet soil along with other trade. Russia ( for the most part )was the only European country that held friendly realtions with Germany after WW1, this once again goes hand in hand to the controversy about Lenin. ;)
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#18 Richard

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 03:54 PM

the Russians which were sub-human and not the western Europeans.


Hitler thought us Brits were second and in some cases third class nation, I don't know what he thought of Western Europe.

#19 PzJgr

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 03:55 PM

Would these coutries be included in the non agression pact of 39 ? If Rummania is communist in the 30's where does Hitler get his oil from ? This shortage would have severly affect Hitler's military build up . .


As previously stated, at this point most of Hitler's ground forces were horsedrawn so oil would not be a major factor as far as the Army is concerned. It would affect the Luftwaffe and industry. But why antagonize the wolf? When Stalin heard of the German Buildup in Poland prior to the invasion of Russia, he actually increased shipments of oil and foodstuffs to Germany so as not to give Hitler a reason to attack. Rumania being behind militarily would never cut off the oil to Hitler. It would only take Hitler a few weeks to get 100% of the Rumanian oil in his pocket.
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#20 Sloniksp

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 03:59 PM

Hitler thought us Brits were second and in some cases third class nation, I don't know what he thought of Western Europe.


Good point Richard... but also remember that Hitler thought of Brits as Aryans as well and that is why he always wanted to side himself with yall. ;)
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#21 fjrosetti

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:06 PM

Hitler thought us Brits were second and in some cases third class nation, I don't know what he thought of Western Europe.


Actually, for some reason (repect for Britian's historical empire perhaps) Hitler admired Great Britain. He preferred to make peace with Britian rather than destroy or capture it. Only country I am aware of that he offered peace terms to in WW2. He would have been content to rule Europe and let the British continue to rule their overseas empire.
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#22 Richard

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:28 PM

Actually, for some reason (repect for Britian's historical empire perhaps) Hitler admired Great Britain. He preferred to make peace with Britian rather than destroy or capture it. Only country I am aware of that he offered peace terms to in WW2.


I remember an interview with Adolf Galland who said Hitler was not keen on a war with Britain as for your second point I heard Hitler would have put three divisions of Fallschirmjager our way to help us. Orso he would come to Britain's aid if we were threaten, the question is how true was that?

#23 Za Rodinu

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:34 PM

Richard, one of the problems with Hitler was that he said one thing one day and another tomorrow. He said the most bombastic things with no substance at all. Impossible to make policy based on the utterances of this fellow.

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#24 Richard

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:44 PM

Richard, one of the problems with Hitler was that he said one thing one day and another tomorrow. He said the most bombastic things with no substance at all. Impossible to make policy based on the utterances of this fellow.


Agreed. :)

After reading Hitler's Table Talk this man said some very strange things. Just another example of a screw loose some where in that rats nest of a brain he had.

#25 Kerem

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Posted Image
Hitler thought us Brits were second and in some cases third class nation, I don't know what he thought of Western Europe.


Good point Richard... but also remember that Hitler thought of Brits as Aryans as well and that is why he always wanted to side himself with yall. ;)


And what he said in Mein Kampf proves that he actually respected English;
"England has always had the armament which she needed. She always fought with those weapons which were necessary for success. She sent mercenary troops, to fight as long as mercenaries sufficed; but she never hesitated to draw heavily and deeply from the best blood of the whole nation when victory could be obtained only by such a sacrifice. And in every case the fighting spirit, dogged determination, and use of brutal means in conducting military operations have always remained the same."
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