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#1 Gaucho

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 10:33 PM

1) Why didn't France, England declared war on Russia when it invaded Polland from the East, in middle of September?
2) Why didn't Japan invade (or even declared war at) Russia?

and a military one:

3) Why didn't German got Bismarck, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Graff Spee, Tirpitz, Lützow, Prinz Eugen, Admiral Hipper, etc together with their U-Boat fleet so they could rule the Atlantic together?
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#2 Gaucho

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 11:33 AM

Let me add a fourth one:

4) Why did not Spain join the Axis ?
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#3 Za Rodinu

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 02:40 PM

Four questions, then, let's see what we can do here :)

1) Why didn't France, England declared war on Russia when it invaded Polland from the East, in middle of September?
2) Why didn't Japan invade (or even declared war at) Russia?
3) Why didn't German got Bismarck, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Graff Spee, Tirpitz, Lützow, Prinz Eugen, Admiral Hipper, etc together with their U-Boat fleet so they could rule the Atlantic together?
4) Why did not Spain join the Axis ?


1) Mainly for practical reasons. There not being any land contact with Soviet territory a declaration of war would be symbolic only. There were plans to bomb Baku with planes based in Iraq and Syria, but this would be at extreme range and would therefore be useless. Besides, why pick another fight when they had their hands full enough already?

2) Oh, they tried to. There was an undeclared Soviet-Japanese war in 1939, but Zhukov gave the Japanese such a drubbing as to make them think it would be a very bad idea. See the Battle of Khalkhin Gol for instance. Besides, there were no roads to Siberia, and nothing to conquer there but empty steppe, so why waste time and effort there when they already had enough to do in China and there was so much to conquer in the Pacific and South Asia?

3) Good question, possibly they never had the resources to put all those together at sea at the same time, for example the Tirpitz was commissioned only in Feb.'41, and anyway was not ready to go to sea with the Bismarck which was sunk shortly after. So basically, when one ship was ready, the other had been sunk already. You see the point?

4) There were strong pressures on Spain from Germany. In fact Hitler and Franco met in October 1940 in Hendaye, after the fall of France. Spain had just come out of a destructive civil war, and the country was devastated. Germany in practice would have to equip, feed and pay a new Spanish armed forces if he wanted an ally able to fight. Besides this, Franco made such demands as a price for his intervention (mainly in terms of territories in Africa belonging to France) that Hitler decided it wouldn't be such a good idea after all. In the end with the opening of Operation Barbarossa, Franco did send a number of volunteers to the German Army, constituting the 250th Infantry Division, the División Azul, which operated until 1943 in the Leningrad area.

Não está mal como explicação. Porque não aparece mais vezes no fórum, Gaucho? :P

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#4 tikilal

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 03:06 PM

Za did well, I would just like to add several things.

1) France almost did, but decided not to for the reason Za pointed out.

2) Japan was lacking in the resoureces it needed to sustain itself, if the Japanese military was going to fight in Russia it was going to need the resources of the Netherlands East Indies, so the southern oporation was primary, then the US, then Russia. Za is correct the Japanese had a lot of apprehention about fighting the Russians.

3) Even with the ships that were available at any given time they were outnumbered by their British counterparts, this is why German ships tried to slip out to the open sea where they could hide and raid. The only plan Germany ever made to destroy the British fleet was from the air, this was never started because air superiority was never achieved.

4) Nothing to add here.
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#5 Gaucho

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 03:51 PM

1) Mainly for practical reasons. There not being any land contact with Soviet territory a declaration of war would be symbolic only. There were plans to bomb Baku with planes based in Iraq and Syria, but this would be at extreme range and would therefore be useless. Besides, why pick another fight when they had their hands full enough already?


Ok, but this is the "official" reason (if there were any)? And didn't Poland asked for help also agains Russia?


2) Oh, they tried to. There was an undeclared Soviet-Japanese war in 1939, but Zhukov gave the Japanese such a drubbing as to make them think it would be a very bad idea. See the Battle of Khalkhin Gol for instance. Besides, there were no roads to Siberia, and nothing to conquer there but empty steppe, so why waste time and effort there when they already had enough to do in China and there was so much to conquer in the Pacific and South Asia?


Because of Hitler's demands. When Barbarossa started, Pearl Harbor didn't have happened yet attacking the east bord would force Russia to divide its forces... so obviously this would benefit German to reach Moscow. Wouldn't it? Then, if Russia surrended, Germany could somwhow help Japan in the south pacific... could this have happened? Remember that the USA was not yet at war and the Axis would have already beaten Russia. What do you think?


3) Good question, possibly they never had the resources to put all those together at sea at the same time, for example the Tirpitz was commissioned only in Feb.'41, and anyway was not ready to go to sea with the Bismarck which was sunk shortly after. So basically, when one ship was ready, the other had been sunk already. You see the point?


Sure, they did not even had all those ships at same time. But even then, with U-boats all over north atlantic, couldn't they add a few of them together? This is what I (more or less) always did on Great Naval Battles PC game ;)



4) There were strong pressures on Spain from Germany. In fact Hitler and Franco met in October 1940 in Hendaye, after the fall of France. Spain had just come out of a destructive civil war, and the country was devastated. Germany in practice would have to equip, feed and pay a new Spanish armed forces if he wanted an ally able to fight. Besides this, Franco made such demands as a price for his intervention (mainly in terms of territories in Africa belonging to France) that Hitler decided it wouldn't be such a good idea after all. In the end with the opening of Operation Barbarossa, Franco did send a number of volunteers to the German Army, constituting the 250th Infantry Division, the División Azul, which operated until 1943 in the Leningrad area.


Intersting, didn't remember that the country was partly devasted and they had no significant army to add. Yes, División Azul fouht in the OstFront, but I tought that they could have helped more Hitler (as a 'payment' for their support in Spanish Civil War).


Não está mal como explicação. Porque não aparece mais vezes no fórum, Gaucho? :P


Ora ora ora, pareçe que mais alguém aqui fala português, good news! ;)
De onde vc é? E seu português me pareçeu com o português de Portugal, acertei?

Abraços :D
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#6 Skipper

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 04:07 PM

De onde vc é? E seu português me pareçeu com o português de Portugal, acertei?

Abraços :D


I'd say za is a Portuguese from Moscow lol.

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#7 Sloniksp

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 04:23 PM

Ok, but this is the "official" reason (if there were any)? And didn't Poland asked for help also agains Russia?


Well then France and England would have fought Russia and Germany... ;)
Besides, there really wasnt much they could do to help Poland. Not to mention that France and Enland knew very well that Poland was part of the Russian empire less then 30 years ago.



Because of Hitler's demands. When Barbarossa started, Pearl Harbor didn't have happened yet attacking the east bord would force Russia to divide its forces... so obviously this would benefit German to reach Moscow. Wouldn't it? Then, if Russia surrended, Germany could somwhow help Japan in the south pacific... could this have happened? Remember that the USA was not yet at war and the Axis would have already beaten Russia. What do you think?


Dont think that Japan really cared much about Hilter's demands. Attacking Russia served Japan absolutely no good. It would be Japan that would be splitting her forces between China and Russia. Russian would not as Russia already had her divisions on the border. Just like Za said, Japan had learned her lesson in 39' and an expensive one at that ;)

And who said that Russian would surrender just because Moscow would be captured? ( That is to say if the Germans had better success there then they did in Leningrad and Stalingrad?)




Ora ora ora, pareçe que mais alguém aqui fala português, good news! ;)
De onde vc é? E seu português me pareçeu com o português de Portugal, acertei? Abraços :D


aeig uihna ioweix al iwei wodknvhty alue There! :D :D
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#8 FramerT

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 06:11 PM

<Because of Hitler's demands. When Barbarossa started, Pearl Harbor didn't have happened yet attacking the east bord would force Russia to divide its forces... so obviously this would benefit German to reach Moscow. Wouldn't it? Then, if Russia surrended, Germany could somwhow help Japan in the south pacific... could this have happened? Remember that the USA was not yet at war and the Axis would have already beaten Russia. What do you think?>

I thought Japan was doing a pretty good job by herself until the U.S. got involved. Japan already had a powerful navy. All Germany could add,would be a couple more battleships for the Allies to sink.
"If" Russia surrendered early on, Germany would still need an occupying force kept there. Britain would still need to be neutralized to forbid any future U.S.
launching point. Otherwise, there would be another 2 front war for Hitler. I'm not sure how much Germany could have helped in the Pacific.

#9 Gaucho

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 06:24 PM

Dont think that Japan really cared much about Hilter's demands.



So what benefits an alliance with Germany/Italy could bring to Japan? What was the main point of joining forces then?

An obvious reason would be mutual help to achieve both aims, wouldn't be?





All Germany could add,would be a couple more battleships for the Allies to sink.


And what about Japan + Italy + German + Free France (before being disabled by England's) navy alltogether? Could be a formidable oponent to England + USA navy... or am I dreaming too high? :P
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#10 Gaucho

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 06:26 PM

aeig uihna ioweix al iwei wodknvhty alue There! :D :D


Well, lol, I tried all available online translators but coldn't get a single word tranlated, so I gues you just rested your hands on the keyboard and pressed 'Submit Reply'.

Um forte abraço brasileiro!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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#11 PzJgr

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 06:28 PM

Intersting, didn't remember that the country was partly devasted and they had no significant army to add. Yes, División Azul fouht in the OstFront, but I tought that they could have helped more Hitler (as a 'payment' for their support in Spanish Civil War).


Helped Hitler in what way? The Spanish economy was in chaos. The army really did not exist in a way to wage war. As a matter of fact, all of the facist countries were not ready for any kind of war. Hitler ignored that fact. Mussolini acknowledged that fact but did not want his fascist subordinate to upstage him. Franco was the only one who acknowledged that fact and stayed out of it. The Spanish Blue division and the Azul squadron were a compromise and Franco withdrew them in 43.
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#12 tikilal

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 06:39 PM

So what benefits an alliance with Germany/Italy could bring to Japan? What was the main point of joining forces then?

An obvious reason would be mutual help to achieve both aims, wouldn't be?

And what about Japan + Italy + German + Free France (before being disabled by England's) navy alltogether? Could be a formidable oponent to England + USA navy... or am I dreaming too high? :P

The alliance between these powers was to contain communism, a threat to all three.

And yes all of those navies together would still not have been a match for the UK + US. Carriers are where it was at.
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#13 FramerT

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 06:54 PM

<And what about Japan + Italy + German + Free France (before being disabled by England's) navy alltogether? Could be a formidable oponent to England + USA navy... or am I dreaming too high?>

Like I said, Germany would still have to keep her Uboats and navy in the Atlantic until they starved Britain to sue for peace. Then and only then can they give troops and material to other theaters.
Tikilal said it all, you need carriers. Germany had none. Japan was a formidable
oponent at Midway,but...........

#14 Sloniksp

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 07:03 PM

There really was no alliance between Germany and Japan to begin with. An alliance is what they called it. Most would just consider a mutual understanding. Japan singed a non-agression pact with Russia immediately after the disastrous attempt in 39' and no attempt was ever made or even considered about going to war against the SU again. Other then sharing information between each other, little if anything was ever done or accomplished by them.

The irony is that they both thought that they were the superior races and yet at the same were completely different from each other, in almost everyway imaginable. ;)
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#15 Za Rodinu

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 11:22 PM

Ha, as was said above, yes, I'm a Portuguese of the worst kind, a Muscovite one :D

1 - Ok, but this is the "official" reason (if there were any)? And didn't Poland asked for help also agains Russia?


1 - Yes, but the situation was awfully complicated. The fact was that Britain and France had issued their ultimatum to Germany, and the Soviet participation was totally unexpected. In any case strong representations were made by the Soviet embassies in Paris and London, stating that this was no more than a reoccupation of former Russian territory, performed to protect population from the German invasion. It was hard to build a casus belli on that.

2 - Because of Hitler's demands. When Barbarossa started, Pearl Harbor didn't have happened yet attacking the east bord would force Russia to divide its forces... so obviously this would benefit German to reach Moscow. Wouldn't it? Then, if Russia surrended, Germany could somwhow help Japan in the south pacific... could this have happened? Remember that the USA was not yet at war and the Axis would have already beaten Russia. What do you think?


What Hitler's demands? The Japanese didn't care a hoot for the antics of a guy on the other end of the world. When Hitler invaded the Soviet Union there was no obligation on the Axis pact to follow through with an invasion on the other side. Besides the Japanese as already stated had their strategic interests elsewhere, so would they invade the empty Siberia for kindness sake only? Out of the question!

On the other hand, when the Japanese struck at Pearl Harbour, Hong kong, Singapore, etc in short order, if Hitler then decided to declare war on the USA, it was entirely of his own volition, the Japanese did not ask for that.

You can call the Axis a very very loose alliance...

3 - Sure, they did not even had all those ships at same time. But even then, with U-boats all over north atlantic, couldn't they add a few of them together? This is what I (more or less) always did on Great Naval Battles PC game ;)


Ah, here's a great mistake people do, mixing up wargames with reality. In wargames one always works with a hindsight 60 years long, much fuller information than available back then, and zero friction between several commanding organisations as the player is only one. One doesn't even have the right side of the brain conflicting with the left side.

In short, it didn't work like that, it appeared as if there were two separate Kriegsmarine, surface and submarine. They had entirely different strategies, different tactics, different everything. There was no coordination, period.

Coordination was really never on of the Reich's strongpoints.

4 - Intersting, didn't remember that the country was partly devasted and they had no significant army to add. Yes, División Azul fouht in the OstFront, but I tought that they could have helped more Hitler (as a 'payment' for their support in Spanish Civil War).


When I say devastated I mean devastated. In the war they lost circa 1,500,000 dead, including combat casualties, civilian massacres and hunger. Industry was destroyed. No, they weren't really able to fight another war. The División Azul was a great scheme for Franco as it enabled him to look good to Hitler as well as allowing him to get rid of a number of hotheads, who if they wanted to keep killing 'Rojos' they could as well be gone to 'Rojoland' to kill some more.

As for payment of Hitler's support in the Civil War, oh yes, they did pay for it, in cash and in minerals. What more do you want?

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#16 Seadog

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 02:21 AM

The German navy was not effective due to the fact that they had no experience in combined operations. Their navy was built on individual commands that acted as such. They did not have the initial strength, replacement capability, and training to achieve a viable naval force.

Poland was a problem with no viable solutions. With the threat from Germany, it was no more than a distraction. The Soviet Union was not a threat to France or Britain.

It should be remembered that even though Franco had won the civil war, it was still a nation divided. He did not dare to reduce his home forces for fear his enemies would use the opportunity to start another conflict, or worse, come to an agreement to supplant him with the Allies. If Hitler won, Franco had enough of an alliance to keep his power safe. If Hitler lost, the fact that Franco did not get involved would save him.
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