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"No Pearl Harbor" part 2


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#1 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 03:49 AM

The original titled thread postulated a Japanese attack on the Soviet Union without US and other nation's involvement in the Pacific. I think that in the long run this was quite unrealistic as the US was pushing Japan into a corner. But, let's say the Japanese do make something along those lines occur as the original thread supposes.

But, here's the new twist: By the begining of 1942 the British goad the Dutch into cutting off Japanese oil. The US also finally places a full embargo on Japan depriving them of steel, oil, aviation fuel, critical chemicals, and a whole range of other products critical to their industries. At the same time the US has continued to prepare for war as they historically were doing.
The later means that there are now two full regular US infantry divisions in the Philippines supported by four plus battalions of tanks half of which are M 3 Lees. The Philippine Army has 10 divisions in the field half of which are in some semblence of shape where they are useful with the others rapidly approaching that point.
There are now between triple and quadruple the aircraft in the PI and the new aircraft include P 38 and P 47 fighters along with the better B 17E and F. The US Navy has also put some fighters and bombers there along with more patrol aircraft.
There is now a regular radar system with a GCI sytem to back it in place.

For the British Singapore and Burma now have better forces and more equipment in place. They too have improved their aircraft situation some but not to the extent the US has.

The Dutch have now supplemented their air forces with Curtiss CW 21 and P-40E fighters along with some B-18 and A-20 bombers replacing their ancient B-10s.

What does Japan do now?

#2 Roddoss72

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 04:36 AM

The original titled thread postulated a Japanese attack on the Soviet Union without US and other nation's involvement in the Pacific. I think that in the long run this was quite unrealistic as the US was pushing Japan into a corner. But, let's say the Japanese do make something along those lines occur as the original thread supposes.

But, here's the new twist: By the begining of 1942 the British goad the Dutch into cutting off Japanese oil. The US also finally places a full embargo on Japan depriving them of steel, oil, aviation fuel, critical chemicals, and a whole range of other products critical to their industries. At the same time the US has continued to prepare for war as they historically were doing.
The later means that there are now two full regular US infantry divisions in the Philippines supported by four plus battalions of tanks half of which are M 3 Lees. The Philippine Army has 10 divisions in the field half of which are in some semblence of shape where they are useful with the others rapidly approaching that point.
There are now between triple and quadruple the aircraft in the PI and the new aircraft include P 38 and P 47 fighters along with the better B 17E and F. The US Navy has also put some fighters and bombers there along with more patrol aircraft.
There is now a regular radar system with a GCI sytem to back it in place.

For the British Singapore and Burma now have better forces and more equipment in place. They too have improved their aircraft situation some but not to the extent the US has.

The Dutch have now supplemented their air forces with Curtiss CW 21 and P-40E fighters along with some B-18 and A-20 bombers replacing their ancient B-10s.

What does Japan do now?


And yet here in lies the twist, even in your senario, no Pearl Harbour Mk 2, so Japan does not provoke America with an attack on American soil or interests, America would have to contravene it's Neutrality Act to launch an unprovoked pre-emptive stike on Japan, but here is the kicker, how does the US President convince not only Congress and Senate to envoke a declaration of war on Japan without provication and then convince the US population to send their sons to die for a brutal communist regime, when only 18 monts ago, would not send in anyone to help out Britain a fellow democratic nation. So my answer is that Japan does nothing. Make the Americans the agressor nation.
1917 to 1990, The Soviet Union and 25 miilion murdered civillians now thats progress.
Gulf War Two and 800,000 Iraqi civilians killed now thats progress

#3 Roddoss72

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 05:04 AM

For a later time.
1917 to 1990, The Soviet Union and 25 miilion murdered civillians now thats progress.
Gulf War Two and 800,000 Iraqi civilians killed now thats progress

#4 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 02:09 PM

And yet here in lies the twist, even in your senario, no Pearl Harbour Mk 2, so Japan does not provoke America with an attack on American soil or interests, America would have to contravene it's Neutrality Act to launch an unprovoked pre-emptive stike on Japan, but here is the kicker, how does the US President convince not only Congress and Senate to envoke a declaration of war on Japan without provication and then convince the US population to send their sons to die for a brutal communist regime, when only 18 monts ago, would not send in anyone to help out Britain a fellow democratic nation. So my answer is that Japan does nothing. Make the Americans the agressor nation.


And, the Japanese economy collapses entirely in under 6 months. The US has to do nothing beyond enforce their embargo. Japan has no indigenous oil production worth mentioning, no sources of iron that are worthwhile, etc., they cannot make up what they lose when the US and Britain (along with the Dutch) embargo them.
The ball is in Japan's court here.

#5 PzJgr

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 02:46 PM

I'm no expert on the Pacific Theater but isn't that why Japan invaded her neighboring countries, to get access to raw materials? In this scenario, she would recognise that she would need to invade to get oil, rubber and agricultural resources. But she would need to knock out the US fleet since the US is putting pressure and can put military pressure.
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#6 tikilal

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 09:14 PM

Japan is in the position that it either Declares War on Neighbors, but not the US or it self destructs. It is a very optimistic view of developments in 42 as well as production and lend-lease, if Japan had invaded SU in 41 Would the priority of tanks and planes gone to SU and GB? If they hadnot gone to GB the British tank presence in Egypt would have been much lower if at all, making Rommel's job there easier. Potentially changing the course of the war.

The best part of this What If is the politics behind it, FDR was a huge advocate of Germany First, and given more time he may have sent all of the things you assume went to the Pacific to divisions destined for Europe or to the British themselves.
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#7 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 02:58 AM

Note, the units I listed as being in the PI in mid 1942 were mostly "on the water" when the Pacific war broke out. The second US division was in Hawaii. The first M3 Lee battalion was in LA waiting for shipment. There were an additional 40 P 40E enroute on the Langley. A Marine defense battalion similar to the one on Wake and Johnson atolls was scheduled for the defense of Subic Bay (the Naval station there). More National Guard units were being shipped too. One battalion of Texas National Guard artillery was already in the PI.
The US was gearing up for war big time at the end of 1941. There involvement was virtually certain sooner or later.

#8 Seadog

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 03:18 AM

If Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbor, they would have continue southward and westward. I don't see anything that would stop them, The U.S. would reinforce the Philippines, but do nothing until the Japanese chose to attack. That would be the conundrum for them. To attack any U.S. territory would be to declare war against America. To by-pass those territories would leave threats in strategic positions.

The big problem is that most of the assets they desired, were not in a format or location to do them any good without extensive time to set up a supply system. To do everything required to continue, they would have needed to appease the U.S. at every turn, short of stopping their progress. I do not see this fitting their ego. They consider themselves to be on a crusade. The long term ramifications would not deter them because they would not believe that the lower beings mongrels like the Americans could oppose their superior will.

The problem is that logistics is one thing. The psychology of the people involved is a totally different animal. Nothing that the Japanese could do would allow them to escape their final destiny.

Now if they had a totally different leadership, they might have been more able to avoid some of the major screw-ups that they made. I think that if they had taken only selective parts of China and avoided countries that had no strategic or material wealth, they could have made better gains. Doing it with the right diplomacy and timing, they could have avoided doing combat with both America and Russia. At least until they were in a more secure position to counter most attacks.

The catch on this, is that eventually, they would have to take the Philippines. It is too valuable of a strategic asset to leave alone.
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#9 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 04:24 AM

Actually, several years back a poster here (who apparently no longer does unfortunately) using the name The Red Baron had a short lived game going where the various players / posters were sending in their 'orders' for a WW 2 game of sorts. I had Japan. I actually very thoroughly researched the events leading up to the Pacific War and gamed out a reasonable Japanese strategy that would have involved war in mid 1942, if at all, for this game.
While it was an alternative version of history it was workable within the framework of original events and would have been incredibly vicious especiallly given what I perceived to be a weak US player.

The grand strategy was something along the lines of:

I made a maximum effort to appease the US particularly over China by limiting new operations while slow playing them by setting up a puppet government that would look like a legitimate new regime in that country. Manchucko was reorganized to more closely integrate it into the Japanese military and culture to tighen the grip on that critical region.
The Soviets were appeased and Japan went out of its way to get a non-aggression pact. A quiet front was needed there. The Soviets knew which side their bread was buttered on and wanted the same it seemed.
On the other hand, as the Japanese I started stirring up major sh*t with the French and British right off the bat. I backed the Indian National Congress and agitated for a break of India with Britian. I was going to try and get the Germans involved to. This would make India a neutral and deprive Britain of a huge source of manpower for operations in Asia. I also made treaties with Thailand to stir up trouble for the French in Indochina with the intent of getting the Thais to retake that region and share the wealth.

To marginalize the US I started building a rail line to Indochina with the intent of integrating it into one that ran to Singapore. By using rail movement of raw materials from Singapore to Korea and then by ship across the Sea of Japan I negated the usefulness of a submarine campaign as the only shipping was being done in restricted waters in the straights off Singapore. Of course, I fully intended to invade and take Malaysia and Burma along with Indochina.

I also planned a simultaneous invasion of French Polynesia along with British holdings in the Pacific. Attacking the US would be avoided. Other areas to be taken right off were the Andaman, Maldive, and Kerguelen Island groups in the IO. The intent was to drive the British and French out of the area while marginalizing the US militarily. The PI would be made irrelevant by the railroad system and they could not waste Japan in a commerce war with submarines.

The Central Pacific would be turned into a true fortified zone with heavy coastal defense weapons and interlocked supporting atolls in many island groups. I even came up with a justifiable means to build a small 15 knot underwater submarine for defending these islands. Sort of a small Type XXI in 1942.

With a 10,000 pilot a year program (moded from a historical one but within reason) and aircraft that were far more vicious in service (including a licsense built He 100D...amazing what you can talk the Russians into shipping to you via rail when you kiss their a$$) the Japanese air fleet was going to be down right nasty to deal with.

The Japanese were also under my plan going to mass produce (as much as they could) a carrier navy instead of a traditional battleship one. The plan called for almost 20 carriers of various sizes by the end of 1942 to be in service.

One of the orders sets I submitted is in this thread:

http://www.ww2f.com/...html#post227848

More vicious still for the British was springing the "Kobiyoshi Maru" incident on them. This was based on an actual historical incident. Once the Germans and Britain were at war I was going to have the cruiser HMS Cornwall (historically in the Pacific at the time) stop and board a Japanese cruise liner and remove a number of German passengers (yea, they are military and techincal personel headed to Japan but that is a minor issue really) as POW. This would give me (eg., Japan) a reason to ratchet up the rhetoric and anti-British / French sentiment as well as give a potential pretext for war.
Historically, the Cornwall's captain acted on his own accord so the British player would have been blindsided by the incident.

#10 Roddoss72

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 05:23 AM

Japan is in the position that it either Declares War on Neighbors, but not the US or it self destructs. It is a very optimistic view of developments in 42 as well as production and lend-lease, if Japan had invaded SU in 41 Would the priority of tanks and planes gone to SU and GB? If they hadnot gone to GB the British tank presence in Egypt would have been much lower if at all, making Rommel's job there easier. Potentially changing the course of the war.

The best part of this What If is the politics behind it, FDR was a huge advocate of Germany First, and given more time he may have sent all of the things you assume went to the Pacific to divisions destined for Europe or to the British themselves.


But i keep challenging T.A Gardner on how does America overcome their Neutrality Act, and he dodges the issue that in my senario Nationalist China effectively become a tacit tripartite member by signing the Anti-Commintern Pact (America never recognises the legitamacy of Mao's communist Chinese), so effectively China is now embroiled in a civil war, but this is the kicker, Japan does satisfy America by pulling out of much of China and China does recognise Japan's influence in Northern China and Inner Mongolia, and eventually withdraws sanctions on Japan meaning American companies can now sell to Japan.

So if we were to overlay this thread who do the Americans support pro-Japanese Nationalist China or Communist China, tough decision because once you choose you make an enemy of the other, T. A Gardner also dodges another part of my thread and that is without US involement in Europe how does Britain cope with the sole responsibility of freeing up Europe from the Germans, Hungarians, Roumanians, Finns, Slovakia. and Italians, how does an overextended Britain punt the Axis out of North Africa, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Greece, Yugoslavia etc.... and then launch an invasion of Italy. But hold on the the Middle East and it's vast oilfields and refineries.

All these senarios are based on that Japan does not attacks Pearl Harbour.

Also in the rules of debating you can't ammend an original question to fit another seanrio.

My senario is completely different to T.A Gardners.
1917 to 1990, The Soviet Union and 25 miilion murdered civillians now thats progress.
Gulf War Two and 800,000 Iraqi civilians killed now thats progress

#11 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 05:35 PM

Well, a few clarifications on Roddoss' original proposition are necessary;

Does Germany still persue the U-boat war well into the Atlantic or do they limit their operations to just waters close to the British isles?

Does the US still allow Britain, Russia, etc., to buy arms and munitions from them as they originally did?

Is Lend-Lease still in effect? Much of the early protion of this program was geared more to enhancing US "hemisphere defense" than to particularly giving away munitions for a song so to speak?

Does the US continue to supply arms to China?

Does the US continue embargos on critical materials to Japan? If not, why? After all, the US position was more about an aggressive Japan and that is still occuring if Japan attacks the Soviet Union. Just placating the US over China is unlikely to bring much relief if the Japanese attack Russia instead.

Does the US continue to ramp up its own military programs as they historically were doing since about 1938?

Do the Japanese get involved in a conflict with Britain, et. al., in the Pacific as well? Or, are they limiting operations to Russia? If the later how do they handle the embargo of rubber and manganese coming out of Malaysia when Britian (without doubt) cuts it off crippling their economy?
Japan can survive with US oil and none from the DEI or with oil from the DEI and not the US but if both are cut off where do they get their oil from?

If the Germans do manage to push the British out of much of North Africa what happens when they start running into US interests in the region regarding oil and ports / shipping like the Suez Canal?

#12 Roddoss72

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 11:29 PM

Well i will actually conform to your senario

Here is Japans response (i'll use Hawain Local Time (HLT) as a reference)

1, Japan decides that it will attack America but delays the attack to the 25th December 1941 Christmas Day.

2, On the 25th December at 5.00am (HLT) 5 Japanese Merchant Marine vessels transiting through the Panama Canal which are packed with high explosives blow themselves up in a massive suiced attack, the Panama Canal is effectively destroyed and is knocked out of action for some years.

3, 07.55am (HLT) Japanese forces attack Pearl Harbour three waves of air attacks, the third wave proves the most devestating as it wipes out 50% of the oil and fuel facilities.

4, 09.45am (HLT) Japanese force in the North Pacific launch and invasion of the Aleutians, and by the end of the day gain at least several islands as bases of Operations.

5, 11.30am (HLT) MacArthur is given just one hours notice is faced with the full force of the Japanese Philipine Expeditionary Force, American and Philipino forces are unprepared as they are in full Christmas celebration spirit and by this time many of the American personal are to intoxicated to fight.

On the 26th December 1941

1, 06.00am (HLT) several Japanese subs that are patroling off the entrance of Pearl Harbour are presented with the sight of the two U.S carriers returning to survey the devestating scene and as the two carriers just outside of Pearl Harbour they are torpedoed and taken by surprise damage parties can't save them, they sink within minutes.

2, 10.00am (HLT) Japanese Hawaian Expeditionary Forces begin to attack leading off with aerial and naval bombardment of Hawaii, followed with landing parties and by the end of the day Pearl Harbour is forced into surrender.

On the 27th December 1941

1, MacArthur flees the Philipines, leaving behind 40,000 American wounded but tells them to hold at all cost, but 10 days later the Philipines surrender and MacArthur cowardly blames his troops for the loss.

By the end of January the Japanese have the Aleutians, Hawaii and the Philipines under their command.

By the end of June 1942, Japanese forces have Indo-China, Malaya, Singapore, Dutch East Indies, Burma under their command and threatening Australia.

By the end of December 1942 Australia finally surrenders and with that the Ceylon campaign opens up.

More to come.
1917 to 1990, The Soviet Union and 25 miilion murdered civillians now thats progress.
Gulf War Two and 800,000 Iraqi civilians killed now thats progress

#13 lwd

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:07 AM

But i keep challenging T.A Gardner on how does America overcome their Neutrality Act, ....

Yes you do. Which rather proves you either haven't read or understood the responses and or references given indeed there is some question whether you understand the neutrality act at all.

#14 lwd

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:21 AM

...
1, Japan decides that it will attack America but delays the attack to the 25th December 1941 Christmas Day.

With the additional assets at Pearl are the Japanese discovered? Especially as tensions will have been rising and alert status higher.

2, On the 25th December at 5.00am (HLT) 5 Japanese Merchant Marine vessels transiting through the Panama Canal which are packed with high explosives blow themselves up in a massive suiced attack, the Panama Canal is effectively destroyed and is knocked out of action for some years.

Would Japanese ships even be allowed in the Canal at this point in time? 5 Would raise some serious questions and likely they would at least be inspected before they were allowed into the Canal.

3, 07.55am (HLT) Japanese forces attack Pearl Harbour three waves of air attacks, the third wave proves the most devestating as it wipes out 50% of the oil and fuel facilities.

A) It may not be a surprise in which case Japanese naval aviation is crippled to little effect.
B) A third strike is going to incur significant additional casualties and probably can't be launched the same day.
C) With the additional defences at PH all strikes will take additional damage.
D) There is a real question as to whether a third strike would have been capable of inflicting the damage you state.

4, 09.45am (HLT) Japanese force in the North Pacific launch and invasion of the Aleutians, and by the end of the day gain at least several islands as bases of Operations.

The Aleutians were almost useless as a base of operations. Taking several islands requires a significant portion of the Japanese fleet. It's absence from Japanese home waters increase the risk that the pH force will be detected and as well as assuring US forces are on higher alert.

5, 11.30am (HLT) MacArthur is given just one hours notice is faced with the full force of the Japanese Philipine Expeditionary Force, American and Philipino forces are unprepared as they are in full Christmas celebration spirit and by this time many of the American personal are to intoxicated to fight.

Why only one hour? Not all US forces would be celebrating. Especially as alert stat us would be even higher. Are the Japanese even capable of launching three different offensives this ambitious? It's certainly going to cut very deep into their oil reserves.

On the 26th December 1941

1, 06.00am (HLT) several Japanese subs that are patroling off the entrance of Pearl Harbour are presented with the sight of the two U.S carriers returning to survey the devestating scene and as the two carriers just outside of Pearl Harbour they are torpedoed and taken by surprise damage parties can't save them, they sink within minutes.

Why are they more successful now than they were historically? Indeed the day after an attack on PH they would be lucky to survive any where close to Hawaiian waters much less sink to CVs.

2, 10.00am (HLT) Japanese Hawaian Expeditionary Forces begin to attack leading off with aerial and naval bombardment of Hawaii, followed with landing parties and by the end of the day Pearl Harbour is forced into surrender.

Now you have stepped far into fantasy land. Japan wasn't capable of launching a successful invasion of Hawaii.

No point in going any further.

#15 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:35 AM

Thank you lwd for saving me the trouble of demolishing this increasingly fantastic premise on the part of....well you know.

#16 Carl W Schwamberger

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:29 AM

Would Japanese ships even be allowed in the Canal at this point in time?


The answer is no. Cannal pilots are necessary for any ship to transit the cannal & there are sundry inspections performed before entering. The primary is a safety inspection to ensure the ship will not breakdown in a channel, catch fire, or suffer a power or steering loss and wreck a cannal lock.

From various US Army orders and policy statements of 1941 its clear that sabatoge of this sort was at the top of the list of concerns. Japanese flagged or crewed ships were throughly inspected, as were any ships that appeared suspicious. Ships owned by German affliated companys but flagged under South American nations were on the watch list as well.

#17 von Rundstedt

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:07 AM

The answer is no. Cannal pilots are necessary for any ship to transit the cannal & there are sundry inspections performed before entering. The primary is a safety inspection to ensure the ship will not breakdown in a channel, catch fire, or suffer a power or steering loss and wreck a cannal lock.

From various US Army orders and policy statements of 1941 its clear that sabatoge of this sort was at the top of the list of concerns. Japanese flagged or crewed ships were throughly inspected, as were any ships that appeared suspicious. Ships owned by German affliated companys but flagged under South American nations were on the watch list as well.


Very good point but here is something to think about, say a blockade runner at night. Situation would be that a Japanese merchantman at night at full speed plows into the Pacific end of the Panama Canal and explodes destroying that particular end. I know this isn't perfect as i am not aware of defense of the Panama Canal, but could that work, even as a long shot desperate act. Just a thought.

#18 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 02:48 AM

Just so everyone has a better idea what is involved here in attacking the Panama Canal:

YouTube - Panama Canal Timelapse

Note that there are two sets of locks at each end. Destruction of just one set does not shut the canal down. Also note that the locks are not right on the coast but inland some distance. This means having to run past a number of coast defense batteries.
At the beginning of the video also note the bouys marking the navigation channel. Ships would be required to adhere to the rules of the road in moving along these channels and are also given a time (there is frequently a delay of hours to days waiting for passage through the canal where a ship was anchored out waiting its turn to go through the locks in a specific anchorage position).

#19 von Rundstedt

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 03:56 AM

Just so everyone has a better idea what is involved here in attacking the Panama Canal:

YouTube - Panama Canal Timelapse

Note that there are two sets of locks at each end. Destruction of just one set does not shut the canal down. Also note that the locks are not right on the coast but inland some distance. This means having to run past a number of coast defense batteries.
At the beginning of the video also note the bouys marking the navigation channel. Ships would be required to adhere to the rules of the road in moving along these channels and are also given a time (there is frequently a delay of hours to days waiting for passage through the canal where a ship was anchored out waiting its turn to go through the locks in a specific anchorage position).


Makes Roddoss72 idea look silly then.

#20 Slipdigit

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 04:21 AM

I've posted somewhere on this site the defenses on the Pacific side of the canal. I don't feel like searching for them, but they were substantial.

Best Regards,  
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#21 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 04:50 AM

Here's another interesting tidbit:

On 12/7/41 there were over 22,000 US Army troops in Alaska mostly at Forts Mears and Richardson. Dutch Harbor was an operating US Naval base primarily intended for submarines. Kodiak and Sitka Islands in the Aleutian chain both had operating air bases on them along with the one at Dutch Harbor.

Oh, in the canal zone both entrances were heavily mined even prior to the war with bottom placed command detonated mines (there were operating stations on the shore in sight of where the mines were placed and these were connected by a cable to the mine). There were occasional problems with ships snagging the cables but, these were in place. Interestingly, these mines were Army operated by the Army mine planter service who also manned the ships that maintained them.

#22 Carl W Schwamberger

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:29 AM

Ooooh! Command detonated mines! I'd not heard of these before. Where can we read the details?:cool:

#23 Carl W Schwamberger

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:43 AM

A surface attack on the cannal makes the St Naizzere raid look easy. A conventional air attack is also tough to pull off due to the difficulty in getting land based or naval aircraft carrier planes clsoe enough. Hitting the locks and related equipment enough times with conventional air attack techniques are problematic as well.

I does occur to me the Japanese crusier subs could get their planes close enough undetected (well, better odds than anything else). Further a extremly well planned attack and extremely well rehearsed bombing technique could get hits on the locks into the 30% range. Think of something like the British Dambusters raids. The trick is the float planes could not carry the large bombs needed to damage the locks.

Maybe if a entire fleet with battleships, carriers for air cover, a sheltered refueling site, all the oilers in the IJN, and other bells & whistles made a run for it. With diversionary force to draw the US Pacific fleet off. They could get close enough to hammer the locks with a combination of AP HE ammo and some carrier air strikes. But then you risk losing a major part of the IJN on the far side of the Pacific for a temporary gain.

#24 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:33 PM

I'll see what I can do on the command detonated mine thing. The Japanese had them too. Don't know about the British or Germans however.

#25 Carl W Schwamberger

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:48 PM

I assumed everyone built a few, but am ignorant about how & where they were used. I also wonder if the US Army had anything like gunboats or torpedo boats in the cannal defenses.




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