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What if Stauffenberg's bomb had killed Hitler?


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#1 wolfheart

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 11:48 AM

Would Major Remer back in Berlin had himself convinced so easily by Goebbels?
Would the bungling bunch of conspirators have fared any better?
Would Goring have taken over as fuhrer?
Would Germany have stayed in the war?
Would the allies have been willing to negotiate with a new leadership?
etc....
etc....
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#2 Kai-Petri

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 07:04 PM

Sorry Wolfie,

already at least (big) partly discussed , and I think some 4-5 threads available and here´s one:

http://www.ww2f.com/...ssasinated.html
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#3 Neon Knight

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 10:43 PM

yeah, so why don't we switch this thread into this one :)

GERMAN CIVIL WAR IN SUMMER 1944 (AFTER HITLER'S DEATH):
- WHO ARE THE CONTENDERS ?
- WHO'S GONNA WIN ? (IN THE SHORT TERM)

i think ALL of the nazi leaders knew about the plot, so i guess that any of them had a plan to face to consequences:

- Himmler: no doubt, he's the favourite. SS and gestapo were almighy in germany. he knew about the plot (of course he knew) but let it go so that he had an excuse to exterminate his opponents. he was so efficient on 20th july that it's likely to imagine that, if the plot had succeded, he would have taken power in a few days.

- Bormann: it's true that he built his record on hitler's shadow but neverthelss he proved to be an evil genius. the weeks following 20th july bormann manage to improve his position despite the spots were initially on himmler. maybe bormann wanted himmler to expose himself and strike him later. i mean, the plot scenario was something that was very suitable for bormann!

- Goering: underrated, he was less idiot than many think. more in touch with reality than others. even though luftwaffe was no more a threat he still had a lot of charisma and many good generals ready to follow him (kesselring?). he was obsessionated with microphones so he certainly knew of the plot.

- beck and the plotters: i wouldn't bet 1 euro on them.. anyway, killng hitler could have boost them, why not?

- doenitz: i never believed the story of the "good soldier" fully dedicated to his U-boots. he knew much more than he wanted to show... he wouldn't have been out of the game.

- outsiders: speer? van mestein? canaris? reder? who else?
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#4 Sloniksp

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:42 AM

yeah, so why don't we switch this thread into this one :)

GERMAN CIVIL WAR IN SUMMER 1944 (AFTER HITLER'S DEATH):
- WHO ARE THE CONTENDERS ?
- WHO'S GONNA WIN ? (IN THE SHORT TERM)


The Russians!! The Russians!! :D
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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#5 Kai-Petri

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 03:16 PM

Colonel Otto Ernst Remer- not a 100% nazi? See the film...


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#6 4th wilts

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 03:20 PM

war is over.
"G-Garmans here.? I don't care much for Garmans .!"Thanks 4th wilts.:) !

#7 brndirt1

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:07 PM

and I really think I should insert my own here, rather than there.

If Hitler had been killed, the Nazi party leaders would also be arrested and held for trial. Without that event, the German populace might just as easily turned against the conspirators and blamed them for all the embarrassments which would be forthcoming in military defeats. "If only Hitler were alive, this tragedy would not be ours to bear. Stabbed in the back again!" i.e. turning Hitler into a martyr, the very thing the western allies wished to avoid when they canceled the SIS; "Foxley Operation".

Along with the officers' conspiracy led by Henning von Tresckow, Claus Schenk von Stauffenberg, and Friedrich Olbricht, there was also a civilian opposition group led by Dr. Carl Goerdeler, Ambassador Ulrich von Hassell, who was relieved of his post in 1938, and others.
These men were joined shortly after the beginning of the war by high-ranking former SPD and trade union officials, such as Julius Leber, former Reichstag Deputy, and Wilhelm Leuschner, former Minister of the Interior in Hesse, with their extensive network of connections to former colleagues and party friends. The civilian opposition group was in contact, to various degrees, with the officers' conspiracy via Ludwig Beck, the former General Chief-of-Staff; it was more or less in the know about the plot to overthrow the government and in June of 1944 formed the main contingent, in various configurations, of the provisional government planned. Goerdeler went through several Cabinet lists over the years, but the final one that was agreed to in June 1944 that would have formed the Cabinet of the anti-Nazi provisional government had the July 20th Bomb plot succeeded:

Regent (Reichsverweser) : General Ludwig Beck
State Secretary to the Regent: Count Ulrich Schwerin-Schwandenfeld
Chancellor: Dr. Carl Goerdeler (DNVP)
State Secretary to the Chancellor: Count Peter Yorck von Wartenburg.
Vice-Chancellor: Wilhelm Leuschner (SPD)
Deputy Vice-Chancellor: Jakob Kaiser (Christian Trade Union leader)
Minister of War: General Friedrich Olbricht
State Secretary to the Minister of War: Colonel Count von Stauffenberg
Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces: Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben
Commander in Chief of the Army: General Erich Hoepner
Minister of the Interior: Julius Leber (SPD)
Minister of Economics: Dr. Paul Lejeune-Jung (lawyer and economist)
Minister of Finance: Ewald Loeser (formerly of the DNVP)
Minister of Justice: Joesph Wirmer (Zentrum)
Minister of Education: Eugen Bolz (Zentrum)
Minister of Agriculture: Andreas Hermes (Zentrum)
Minister of Reconstruction: Bernhard Letterhaus (Christian Trade Union leader)
Minister of Information: Theodor Haubach (SPD)
The position of Minister of Foreign Affairs would have went to either Ulrich von Hassel (former ambassador to Italy) or Count von der Shulenburg (former ambassador to the Soviet Union) depending upon whatever the Western powers or the Soviet Union signed a armistice with the new German government first.

This list is on pages 622-623 from; The Nemesis of Power; The German Army In Politics (Macmillan, London)

Here is the speech and SUMMONS TO THE GERMAN PEOPLE to be delivered after the successful assassination of Hitler by von Stauffenberg. Dr. Carl Goerdeler of course never delivers the speech, and is executed in Jan. ’45. As a traditional conservative, Dr. Goerdeler was the political heart and soul of the conspiracy. Initially hoping to steer Hitler away from his malevolent aims, Goerdeler soon abandoned all hope of doing so. In 1937 Goerdeler resigns his post as Mayor of Leipzig in protest over the removal of the statue of Jewish composer Felix Mendelssohn. After resigning Goerdeler becomes passionately committed to overthrowing Hitler and the Nazi regime. And he spends the rest of his life planning the new German state (not a return to the failed Weimar Republic) that would follow a successful coup d'etat. Consequently, the conspirators all agree that Goerdeler should become acting chancellor until elections can be held. This is his undelivered speech, which shows that many of the "non-party" Germans knew full well what was going on in Nazi Germany under Hitler.

Germans!
Monstrosities have taken place before our eyes in the years just past. Hitler,
acting against the advice of experts, has unscrupulously sacrificed whole armies
to his greed for glory, his arrogance for power, his blasphemous delusion that he
is the chosen and blessed instrument of "Providence!".

Not called by the German people, but arrived at the head of the government
through the worst kind of intrigues, he has caused confusion with his demonic
arts and his lies, by monstrous wastefulness that seemed to bring advantage to
all, but in reality plunged the German people into enormous debts. In order to
keep himself in power, he bound up all this in an unbridled regime of terror, he
destroyed justice, put a ban on decency, mocked the divine commandments of simple
humanity, and put an end to the happiness of millions of human beings. With fatal inevitability, his mad contempt for all peoples plunged our people into misery. His usurped generalship led our brave sons, fathers, husbands and brothers to their doom. His bloody terror against the defenseless covered the German name with disgrace.

He has enthroned lawlessness, rape of conscience, crime and corruption in a land that has always prided itself on lawfulness and integrity. He has punished and persecuted the honesty and truthfulness by which even the humblest people tries, as its greatest task, to bring up its children. Both public life and individual existence are threatened by a fatal poison. This must not be. It cannot go on this way! No more may the lives and deaths of our men, women and children be misused for such ends. We would not be worthy of our fathers, we would be despised by our children, if we lacked the courage to do everything, literally everything, in order to cast out this terrible danger, and to win back our self-respect.

To this end, we have taken over the power of state, after having examined our consciences before God. Our brave armed forces are the guarantor of security and order. The police will fulfill their duties. Each official shall obey only the law, only his conscience, and shall discharge his duties according to his expert knowledge. All of you may contribute by showing discipline and faith. Fill your daily work with new hope! Help one another! Yourtormented souls shall find peace and confidence once more. Alien to all hate, we shall strive toward inner peace. With dignity we shall strive for outer reconciliation. Our first task will be to clean up the corruption of this war, and to put an end to the destruction of human life and of cultural economic treasure behind the fronts. We all know that we are not masters of war and peace. We will trust in our incomparable armed farces and in our faith that God gives humans tasks to perform. We will sacrifice everything for the defense of our fatherland and for the restoration of a just and solemn order. We will live once more in respect for the divine commandments, in cleanliness and truth, for honor and freedom!

Germans! Hitler's tyranny is broken. Within the past years, we have witnessed monstrosities. Hitler, not called by the German people, but through the worst sort of intrigues, has applied his demonic arts and his lies to confuse the minds and souls of our people. He committed immense extravagances that seemed to bring advantages to all, but in reality plunged us into debt and scarcity. Indeed, he even achieved fatal deception beyond the German borders. In order to keep himself in power, he established a reign of terror. Once our people could be rightly proud of its integrity, its lawfulness. But Hitler has mocked the divine commandments, has destroyed justice, has ostracized decency, has abolished the happiness of millions. He has thought nothing of the honor, dignity, freedom, life of others. Many Germans, as well as members of other nationalities, have been languishing in concentration camps for years, subjected to the greatest torments, often exposed to terrible tortures. Many, many have died. Our good name has been befouled with mass murder. With blood-stained hands Hitler has walked his false way, leaving behind him tears, suffering and misery. With fatal inevitability, his mad contempt for all human emotions has plunged our people into disaster. With his presumpted (sic) mantle of genius, he has led our brave soldiers to their destruction.

In this war, the intoxication with power, the exaggeration of self, and the obsession with conquest have found their final expression. Our soldiers' bravery
and dedication have been senselessly wasted. Againstthe advice of experts, Hitler has sacrificed whole armies to his hunger for glory, his arrogance of power, his blasphemous delusion that he was the chosen and blessed instrument of Providence. We shall publicly present the evidence for this monstrous treason
against the German people and against its soul; the evidence for the total circumvention of the law, for the mockery of the ideal that the public weal comes first-for shameless corruption. Whoever still doubts these terrible
truths, because he thinks it impossible that such evil could hide behind such high-sounding words, will learn better when the facts are known. It could not go
on like this!

We would not be worthy of our fathers, we would earn the contempt of our children, if we lacked the courage to do everything, everything conceivable, to avert the terrible peril and to achieve self-respect once more. Over and over, Hitler has violated the oath given to the people ten years ago. He has done so by violating the law, human and divine. Therefore no soldier, no official, not a single citizen is bound to him by oath any longer. In this highest emergency, I have acted together with men from all sectors of the population, from all parts of the fatherland. I have taken over the leadership of the German Reich for the present, and have ordered the establishment of a government under Reich Chancellor. It has taken up its tasks. The high command of the armed forces has been assumed by General Ludwig Beck whose leadership has been acknowledged by the commanders at all fronts. These men have had a meeting of minds with me in order to prevent collapse. We come before you at a grave hour. We are ruled by our responsibility before God, our people and its history, the precious blood sacrifices of two World Wars, the steadily mounting distress of the homeland, the misery of other peoples as well, the concern for the future of our youth. The principles and aims of the government will be made known. They are binding until there is a possibility to have the German people make the decision.
Our goal is a true community of the people, based on respect, readiness to help, and social justice. We seek fear of God instead of self-idolatry, justice and freedom instead of violence and terror, truth and cleanliness instead of lies and selfishness. We want to restore our honor, and thereby our reputation in the community of peoples. We want to contribute our best strength to heal the wounds that this war has inflicted on peoples everywhere and to revive the trust among
them.

The guilty ones who have disgraced the good name of our people and have brought so much unhappiness upon us and upon other peoples will be punished. We want to make an end to the hopeless idea that this war must go on indefinitely. We are striving for a just peace that will put peaceful cooperation in place of self- laceration and destruction of others. Such a peace can be based only on respect for the freedom and equality of all peoples. I call on all decent Germans, men and women of all walks of life. I call on the German youth. I rely on the glad cooperation of the Christian churches. Have courage and confidence! The task is enormously difficult. I cannot and will not make empty promises to you. We will have to work hard to slowly forge ahead and upward once more. But we shall travel this road as a free people in decency, and we shall find peace of conscience once more. May everyone fulfill his duty! May everyone cooperate in the rescue of the fatherland! Today you know what is at stake, what our motives and intentions are. The right of ultimate self-defense and the duty of self-preservation trace the way for us and for you.
What has been our lot was not the promised state of a firm and wise leadership, but a terrible tyranny. Our soldiers' courage unto death, their fighting skill have been shamelessly misused. Our homeland has been exposed to misery and destruction, without scruples on the part of the destroyers. We reached the final link in a chain of deeds that mocked the law when Hitler, in his Reichstag speech of April 25, 1942, declared all Germans beyond the pale, by taking on himself the right to alter or reverse any sentence at his own discretion. With that arrogance, he led us to a lowest ebb of lawlessness, one that was unknown heretofore in the life of civilized peoples and that cannot be surpassed. He took the proud Germany of equal rights for all, and made it into a community of slaves, in which the citizen no longer has a chance to defend himself against injustice.

Highest personages, including Adolf Hitler himself, have committed, ordered and tolerated innumerable crimes against life and limb, against property and honor. Men in high positions have enriched themselves from public resources, or from wealth they have extorted from others. Hermann Goering leads them all. We do not want to see the German honor defiled by such parasites. We do not want to be led by scoundrels who cannot distinguish between mine and thine, who misuse their positions in order to lead a luxurious life in spectacular living quarters, in the midst of war, while the people are suffering; while at the front our sons, husbands, loved ones are fighting and dying in action; while the mad destruction of total war is roging throughout the interior of our homeland. An adventurous, power-hungry foreign policy has brought our people into a position the seriousness of which can no longer be overlooked. Consideration for the war keeps us from calling everything by name. But you know and you feel the dilemma to which conscienceless behavior and madness have led us all. Honest men of all walks of life and from all areas will be appointed by us, and their names will be made known to you. These men will conscientiously examine everything that has happened. They will inform you in detail about the state of affairs in which we stand today, and they will report as soon as the situation permits. There is one thing, however, that we can tell you right now: The edifice of a regime that has been built an injustice, arbitrariness, crimes of all sorts,
selfishness, lies, will be torn down. The foundations of the new structure of state will be the solid bases of human relationship-law and truth, decency, cleanliness, reason, consideration far one another, and consideration also for the life-interests of the other God-created peoples.

If we do not want to experience a second November 1, then the last moment has come for putting this
plan into force. In the next few days, we shall openly call to account all those who are responsible for the crimes of the government, those who act without consideration for their responsibility. Hard work lies ahead of us in all areas of life. There is no magic way to erase the destruction that has taken place, the damage to every foundation of decent human society.
Together we will save the fatherland and shape a community based on duty and right. We cannot hold out to you an easing of the conditions of life, either during the war or during the time of reconstruction. But think what is at stake. For what do you want to live and die? For what are our soldiers to fight and die in action? For the right, for freedom, honor and decency; or for crime, terror, disgrace and ruin? Only if you answer the questions aright will there be hope of finishing this war, which has became an unholy second World War, on honorable terms and in a way that will maintain Germany's life-interests. But this goal is not the only deciding factor. What is decisive for us is that we can no longer tolerate the dishonoring of our people and the besmirching of our good name by impudent criminals and liars. For if they were permitted to carry an their dirty business, then not even our children and our grandchildren would have an opportunity to rebuild the fatherland on clean foundations. You shall learn about the criminals and their crimes as soon as possible. You will then be in a position to realize for yourselves that monstrosities have taken place. Yet we shall also take care that there will be only just penalties, and only according to law. Let no one among you be moved to a rash action. For there is something that has priority over all feelings of revenge. That is the necessity of re-establishing a state of equal justice for all, under a just leadership.

Whoever has an accusation against someone because of an injustice should file charges himself, or through a trusted representative, at the office of same authority. All these authorities are herewith charged with passing an the accusations to the new Reich minister of justice, who is to see to their orderly and prompt consideration. Everyone will receive on answer to his plea. Only those accusations will be processed that are backed by the name of the accuser. All others will go, without examination, where they belong: into the waste-paper basket. If an accusation is founded, the procedure prescribed by law will be set in motion. But at the same time, everyone who makes an accusation that he knows to be false will be brought to account. Far we insist an taking the honor of our fellow-citizens and the obligations of decency seriously once more.

No one who has a clear conscience need be afraid. We are not dealing with the question; member of the party or member of the people? Away with those distinctions which, though alien to the German character, have been grafted onto it. Nor are we dealing with the question: SS, SA, or any other organization. We are dealing with the question: decent or indecent? Everyone must continue to do his duty wherever he is, obeying only the laws and decrees of the new authority. The destiny of our hard-fighting soldiers depends on everyone's giving his utmost on the home front. To the soldiers and the beloved dead we owe everything. They and our wounded take precedence over all other cares.

It is natural that you will feel deep emotion because this event has finally taken place. From now on you are free again-as far as consideration of the war allows-to express your thoughts and your feelings and to follow your conscience. See to it that our beloved fatherland does not suffer from this freedom. The war still imposes restrictions on us all. We will take care that everything is done according to the welfare of the fatherland.The internal clean-up of corruption and crime in Germany, the restoration of right and decency without distinction as to the individual, yet without any prejudice against those who think otherwise, can be achieved quickly and simply ifeverybody contributes his share. That can be expected of all persons of good will, for their own happiness depends an the restoration of these values. Among those who know this are they who believed up to now that they could or should deny it.

None of us can untie the fetters of the controlled economy during the war. For the time being, we can and will carry through only simplifications of that economic order. We will tackle cases of profiteering for which the ground was prepared by the controlled economy. As soon thereafter as possible, we shall restore freedom and individual initiative in economy as in family, in community as in state. Matters appear gravest in the field of foreign policy. Here we have to reckon with the interests and the intentions of other peoples. We do not know yet what stand countries outside Germany will take toward us. We had to act from the demands of our consciences. Still, we want to tell you what we see ahead as foreign-policy goals. We Germans are no more alone in this world han any other people. Therefore we must come to terms with the existence, characteristics and interests of other peoples-for our own good. We are convinced that this process of coming to terms is not to be achieved by force of arms. For the more that God has permitted us to develop our techniques through our intellectual capacities, the more destructive has war become. It destroys that very basis for human life on which the flourishing of the mental capacities depends.
In the end, war destroys itself. Therefore we want a peaceful accommodation of the contrasts of interests that exist in this world-contrasts that are conditioned much less by people than by their environment.

We are convinced that such accommodation is possible, for quiet reflection shows that if is in the interest of all people. A prerequisite for it is that oil nations respect one another, and grant each people the right to form and administer on independent state.

The peoples best promote their economic and spiritual welfare when they work together to combine their various strengths in a harmony that pleases all. Such cooperation will bring about the most unhampered exchange of goods. Under such an accord, nations great and small have attained wealth and prosperity since the beginning of the 19th century. Now the problem is to restore that harmony as soon as possible. Every reasonable person will understand, however, that this restoration cannot be achieved from today to tomorrow without severe repercussions. There will need to be a meeting of minds of reasonable spokesmen of all peoples. The goal is to find the safest and shortest way to free everyone for the best possible achievement of his life-interests, within a framework of industrious activity and of regard for the interests of others.

For that reason, we consider it essential to end the mutual destruction and the wasting of each people's notional strength on acts of destruction. Every nation, with or without a role in the war, will have an immense load of difficulties to face in balancing off the material losses of this war. Such international cooperation is possible only if founded on a firm structure of acknowledged principles of fair play. Not even a simple game can be played to the end without a quarrel unless each player considers certain rules of the game. Even less is this possible when peoples who live under the most varying circumstances wont to loin in the greatest of tasks: the harmonious equalization of all national strengths.

We are of the belief that God wills this goal. Therefore we consider the best safeguard for the observance of such rules of the game to be the decent mental outlook, the obligation of conscience that stems from religious awareness. Yet we also recognize that such attitudes need a formulation in law, and that the imperfection of human beings makes it necessary also to entrust them to a protective power. As for this power, we acknowledge the independence of all states as they have evolved in the course of history, but we are prepared, too, for a harmonization of the various states, an a limited as well as on a large scale. The restoration of orderly public budgets is necessary, and as soon as possible. Without this first step, stable currencies cannot exist, and without them an orderly yet lively exchange of goods and services is impossible. We shall not hesitate to turn these necessities into accomplishments In doing so, we have to take into account the hard facts of this miserable war. But we shall see to it that even if foreign territories must still remain occupied at present, full self-government will be permitted again to those affected. The presence of German troops will be reduced to as small a burden as possible. For we know from our own painful experience how deeply it affects the soul of every people to see the soldiers of another nation on the sacred soil of the homeland. Thus, since we do not know what position the world will take towards us, we must continue the fight. All of us have many bitter experiences behind us. We are men who were accustomed to doing our duty under the most unpleasant circumstances.

We are men to take over a bad heritage without railing at the hitherto unfaithful administrators of our destiny. We do not seek to diminish our own responsibility, or to try to place ourselves in a better light, by loading our guilt on others' shoulders and by abusing others. We want to return once more to the language of civilized conduct, as it is observed as a matter of course in every German family where good manners are valued. So we call on you to become resolute within yourselves, and to achieve a confidence that is ready for sacrifices. Do not hate, but help. Do the greatest deed of all: Find the soul of our people again. By so doing, gain the strength to accomplish still more; to help our brave fighting men on the ground, on the sea and in the air to be still more effective.

Let us be at one with those fighting men, in the quiet confidence that no more German blood will be sacrificed for the greed for glory of an incompetent leadership, but only in defense of our life-interests. With God, for right, freedom, and the safeguarding of peaceful work.

(me again) Seems to myself to have been a "good man" in every sense of the word. Sorry that speech didn't copy as gracefully as it appeared on my old page, but the spacing seems to be different here. The "bomb plot" wasn't an "ad hoc" last hope, but it hinged on a number of things. Starting with Hitler's demise, second with the implimentation of the existing "Valkurie Plan" to quell civil war and gain control of the government in Berlin and other regional centers, and lastly the arrest and jailing of the top Nazis extant.

Goebelles, Goering, Himmler, Borman, etc., and the conversion of the German Volk to the idea of a surrender with honor. BTW, the "unconditional surrender" decree didn't mean NO conditions, only that the conditions would be dictated by the allies and accepted by the Axis powers without debate or negotiation.

Italy received less draconian terms when they arrested Mussolini and threw the Fascists out of their government offices. It isn't outside of the realm of possibility that the same might just as well been extended to the German branch of the Axis. Just my opinion of course.
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Happy Trails,
Clint.

#8 Kai-Petri

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 12:36 PM

Interesting...

COINCIDENCE

On July 20, 1944, a flight of Heinkel 177s, commanded by Obstlt. Horst von Riesen, was circling the Masury Lakes near Hitler's HQ in East Prussia, when the engine of one plane caught fire. An order to jettison the bomb load was given. By pure coincidence the bombs exploded at exactly the same time as Stauffenberg's bomb went off in the Führers conference room. On landing, Von Riesen was arrested and faced a court martial but was released some hours later when the bomb plot was confirmed.

Lesser Known Facts of WWII 1944, 1945
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#9 Mortman2004

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 03:15 PM

Would have been a damm good day...
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#10 marc780

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 06:47 PM

Hermann Goerring was Hitler's designated succesor. So if the orderly Nazi chain of command were still functioning, the whole of Germany was bound to obey Goerring. Lacking any other information beyond "The Fuehrer is Dead", Goerring probably could and would have immediately taken control and issued orders to ignore any instructions but his, since that is what most Germans would have expected to occur.
The plotters had seemingly planned well - except they did not even have anyone in mind who would take over from Hitler.

#11 brndirt1

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 07:01 PM

Hermann Goerring was Hitler's designated succesor. So if the orderly Nazi chain of command were still functioning, the whole of Germany was bound to obey Goerring. Lacking any other information beyond "The Fuehrer is Dead", Goerring probably could and would have immediately taken control and issued orders to ignore any instructions but his, since that is what most Germans would have expected to occur.
The plotters had seemingly planned well - except they did not even have anyone in mind who would take over from Hitler.


Goering was out of favor and removed from the line of succession by the time of the assassination attempt. Himmler had taken his place. And as to your last paragraph, you are incorrect. Read my post directly above yours which I posted on July 28th. There most certainly was a staff and provisional government in place.

Here is the list again (with non-Nazi party affiliations) if you cannot find my post.

Military:

Regent (Reichsverweser) : General Ludwig Beck
State Secretary to the Regent: Count Ulrich Schwerin-Schwandenfeld
Minister of War: General Friedrich Olbricht
State Secretary to the Minister of War: Colonel Count von Stauffenberg
Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces: Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben
Commander in Chief of the Army: General Erich Hoepner


Civilian:

Chancellor: Dr. Carl Goerdeler (DNVP)
State Secretary to the Chancellor: Count Peter Yorck von Wartenburg.
Vice-Chancellor: Wilhelm Leuschner (SPD)
Deputy Vice-Chancellor: Jakob Kaiser (Christian Trade Union leader)
Minister of the Interior: Julius Leber (SPD)
Minister of Economics: Dr. Paul Lejeune-Jung (lawyer and economist)
Minister of Finance: Ewald Loeser (formerly of the DNVP) Minister of Justice: Joesph Wirmer (Zentrum)
Minister of Education: Eugen Bolz (Zentrum)
Minister of Agriculture: Andreas Hermes (Zentrum)
Minister of Reconstruction: Bernhard Letterhaus (Christian Trade Union leader)
Minister of Information: Theodor Haubach (SPD)
The position of Minister of Foreign Affairs would have went to either Ulrich von Hassel (former ambassador to Italy) or Count von der Shulenburg (former ambassador to the Soviet Union) depending upon whatever the Western powers or the Soviet Union signed a armistice with the new German government first.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#12 AnEvilGuy

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 12:53 AM

OK, from what I was able to find and to sum it up...
stauffenburg and his conspirators wanted Hitler dead so they could negotiate a conditional surrender with the allies.
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#13 STURMTRUPPEN

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 08:42 PM

then ww2 would have finished earlier than planned
goering was going to be hitlers successor until doenitz took over germany after hitler died
at the end of the night i wont be reaching for the brass ring i'll be reaching for your wwe championship
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#14 marc780

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 07:43 PM

Goering was out of favor and removed from the line of succession by the time of the assassination attempt. Himmler had taken his place. And as to your last paragraph, you are incorrect. Read my post directly above yours which I posted on July 28th. There most certainly was a staff and provisional government in place.


Ok i stand corrected, they had a plan at least.
Its interesting that even the anti-Hitler plotters could have been so delusional as to imagine that the allies were willing to negotiate with any Nazi-led German government. The allies would accept nothing less than unconditional surrender and would most likely have changed the command structure the plotters had in mind if not thrown it out entirely. Did the anti-hitler Generals not realize this?

#15 brndirt1

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 09:37 PM

Ok i stand corrected, they had a plan at least.
Its interesting that even the anti-Hitler plotters could have been so delusional as to imagine that the allies were willing to negotiate with any Nazi-led German government. The allies would accept nothing less than unconditional surrender and would most likely have changed the command structure the plotters had in mind if not thrown it out entirely. Did the anti-hitler Generals not realize this?


Point taken, but in reality the anti-Hitler people (military and/or political) had every reason to hope this would or could be the outcome, and even Stauffenberg was never a member of the party, nor were any of the people proposed for the "provisional government" NSDAP members (I don’t think so anyway).

Since the announcement by FDR and Churchill in 1943 at the Casablanca Conference created the possibility that if the Nazis were out of power, the German people would be dealt with in a "less than" draconian manner. (i.e.):

"In an attempt to ward off the inevitable disaster, the Axis propagandist are trying all of their old tricks in order to divide the United Nations. They seek to create the idea that if we win this war, Russia, England, China, and the United States are going to get into a cat-and-dog fight."

"This is their final effort to turn one nation against another, in the vain hope that they may settle with one or two at a time-that any of us may be so gullible and so forgetful as to be duped into making "deals" at the expense of our Allies."


"To these panicky attempts to escape the consequences of their crimes we say-all the United Nations say-that the only terms on which we shall deal with an Axis government or any Axis factions are the terms proclaimed at Casablanca:

"Unconditional Surrender." In our uncompromising policy we mean no harm to the common people of the Axis nations. But we do mean to impose punishment and retribution in full upon their guilty, barbaric leaders..."

see:

The Avalon Project : CASABLANCA CONFERENCE 1943

as to the unconditional surrender being a surprise; while many people have attempted to make it seem that FDR "surprised" Churchill with the announcement, in fact the minutes of the meetings between the two men show something a bit different; "The Prime Minister suggested ... we release a statement to the effect that the United Nations are resolved to pursue the war to the bitter end, neither partly relaxing in its efforts until the unconditional surrender of Germany and Japan had been achieved." (Minutes of the meeting of the CCS with Roosevelt and Churchill, 18.1.43 in FRUS, p.635.)

This shows clearly that even the term itself was Churchill’s, however the timing of the announcement may have been the surprise to the PM, when Churchill was literally caught in the position of having to acquiesce to FDR in the public "eye" in front of the press, instead of announcing the policy at an agreed upon time with both men appearing "equal partners".

This timing put the UK in the obvious "junior partner" position, even if that may not have been FDR’s true intent. The UK was the only surviving allied power which had been fighting the Nazis the entire time, many times standing alone with only limited aid from America, and the Soviets actually aiding the Nazis with grains, petroleum, and raw materials. Churchill was clearly "miffed" at having to admit that too all intents and purposes it was the USA who was the senior partner in the nations united against the Axis.

And it may have also irritated Churchill that FDR included Italy in his denunciation of all the Axis partners, which sort of contradicted Britain’s own past efforts of maintaining a "balance of power" on the continent for the last couple of centuries (that had worked so well in retrospect LOL). But in FDR’s view this timing must have seemed totally acceptable to Roosevelt, and perhaps he didn’t fully realize the position in which it put the PM. Of course with Stalin absent, this policy might just as easily have been to bolster and reassure the Soviets that the western allies wouldn’t seek a separate peace and allow the Soviets to end up fighting the Germans, on Soviet territory, all alone.

Italy, under Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini, had allied itself with Adolf Hitler from 1936 and joined World War II in June 1940 by invading southern France. But military defeats in the Balkans and North Africa severely dented confidence in Mussolini as a leader and he was ousted in July 1943 by a group of senior military and politicians with King's approval. And consequently their (Italian) surrender was only "unconditional" in that the government of Italy didn’t get to negotiate. They accepted the terms of removing the Fascist leader (Mussolini) and the Fascist members of the government. The Italians received a much less draconian set of terms than the Germans, simply because the Italians removed: "their guilty, barbaric leaders..." (see above)

While it is perhaps a bit of a stretch to believe that the Germans would receive a set of "less than unconditional" surrender terms with the removal of the Nazi party heads and the re-institution of a non-Nazi government, it isn’t totally illogical either. There were only about 18 months of knowledge of the "unconditional surrender" position before the Stauffenberg bombing attempt after all; and the "unconditional surrender" terms were modified/softened in the case of Fascist Italy 11 months before (Sept. 1943).


And don’t forget that the Axis signed a very similar agreement to that effect as well (no separate negotiations), which Italy negated by arresting Mussolini and putting him under "house arrest" at that ski resort (San Graso [?]). I personally believe they should have turned Mussolini over to the Allied forces, and let him stand trial with the rest of the Axis criminals. He may not have gotten the death sentence, but a long prison term I am sure. Just my take on the situation of course, using the lens of 20/20 hindsight.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#16 marc780

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 10:05 PM

That's a very informative post clint, you highlighted one aspect of the allies relationship that bears discussing -

...This timing put the UK in the obvious "junior partner" position, even if that may not have been FDR’s true intent. The UK was the only surviving allied power which had been fighting the Nazis the entire time, many times standing alone with only limited aid from America, and the Soviets actually aiding the Nazis with grains, petroleum, and raw materials. Churchill was clearly "miffed" at having to admit that too all intents and purposes it was the USA who was the senior partner in the nations united against the Axis.


The US did basically take over the war effort in Europe and steamrolled over British decisions and interests on many occasions. Roosevelt and the American Generals more than once used the threat, actual or implied, to give higher priority to the war in the Pacific at the expense of the ETO if the British didnt "see things our way" on some issue or another.

#17 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 10:50 PM

That's a very informative post clint, you highlighted one aspect of the allies relationship that bears discussing -

The US did basically take over the war effort in Europe and steamrolled over British decisions and interests on many occasions. Roosevelt and the American Generals more than once used the threat, actual or implied, to give higher priority to the war in the Pacific at the expense of the ETO if the British didnt "see things our way" on some issue or another.


I don't think Roosevelt, or the JCS, ever actually accorded the PTO a "higher priority" than the the ETO. Perhaps you could cite some concrete examples of this?

Of course, the US did send troops, ships, aircraft, and materials to the Pacific, but never at the expense of ETO requirements. In fact, the PTO only received those items which were considered surplus to ETO needs.

As for British interests, the US was not fighting the war to serve British interests and could only be expected to support such things when they coincided with US interests. The same could be said of Churchill and the British Chiefs of Staff with regard to US interests. The fact that the US was providing the lion's share of Allied war material naturally conferred upon Roosevelt and the JCS a great deal of power in deciding the conduct of the war.

#18 PzJgr

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 01:02 AM

Nah, I think the point is being missed here. The implementation of Valkyrie was in response to a take over by the SS of the German government. I believe a civil war would have ensued. The Armed forces took an oath and swore loyalty to Hitler. Not Germany, not the governement and not to the Fuhrer. Hitler by name. Hitler now being dead, that freed the army generals from their oath and I believe would have gladly fought against the SS and any commands handed down from the new Fuhrer, Goring of which I am sure they loathed. The SS inturn would not have taken orders from Goring, their oath was to Hitler as well, but from Himmler. It would have been a very messy situation.
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#19 JCFalkenbergIII

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 01:06 AM

I don't think Roosevelt, or the JCS, ever actually accorded the PTO a "higher priority" than the the ETO. Perhaps you could cite some concrete examples of this?


He does seem to make quite a few statements where he doesn't back them up with concrete sources doesn't he? And yet when asked he cannot or will not do so.I would like to see them too.
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#20 marc780

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 05:33 PM

I don't think Roosevelt, or the JCS, ever actually accorded the PTO a "higher priority" than the the ETO. Perhaps you could cite some concrete examples of this?


The Americans used the threat of doing this. From the time-life WW2 book series, it was the volume fall of Japan.

#21 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 06:05 PM

The Americans used the threat of doing this. From the time-life WW2 book series, it was the volume fall of Japan.


That's just a negotiating position. The British and Americans were always at odds over some aspect of strategy during WW II and each side threatened all sorts of moves that were never carried out.

Of course, as the war progressed, the Americans gained the upper hand and became the senior partner in the alliance because they were supplying the greater proportion of material, equipment, and manpower.

#22 SOAR21

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:27 AM

I think, and only think, that Roosevelt definitely considered the ETO the greater priority. By 1942, he had all confidence that Japan would eventually be defeated, and he understood the Soviet post-war threat. Once victory in Europe was also a 100% thing, I'm sure his priority was to liberate as much of Europe as he could before the Soviets did.
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#23 JCFalkenbergIII

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:32 AM

The Americans used the threat of doing this. From the time-life WW2 book series, it was the volume fall of Japan.


Any other sources or references then that? If such a "threat" happened you would think there would be more about it.
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#24 A-58

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 09:23 AM

Yes, I would like to read more about those threats too. It would make for some good reading. The only threat that I remember reading about was made in 1943, about the time when it was realized that the cross-channel invasion would have to be put off to 1944 at the earliest. The sentiment of some on the US general staff was that the British appeared to be dragging their feet. The threat was something more along the lines of "we're going in '44, with or without you."

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at the dawn of victory sat down to rest, and resting died"....

(Adlai Stevenson to Harry Truman on discussing the pros and cons of dropping the big one, or so I'm told)


#25 skywalker

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 10:43 AM

Nah, I think the point is being missed here. The implementation of Valkyrie was in response to a take over by the SS of the German government. I believe a civil war would have ensued. The Armed forces took an oath and swore loyalty to Hitler. Not Germany, not the governement and not to the Fuhrer. Hitler by name. Hitler now being dead, that freed the army generals from their oath and I believe would have gladly fought against the SS and any commands handed down from the new Fuhrer, Goring of which I am sure they loathed. The SS inturn would not have taken orders from Goring, their oath was to Hitler as well, but from Himmler. It would have been a very messy situation.


I highly doubt a civil war would have ensued. Look at things in comparison, they were already commited to a war. I have a hard time believing the SS would have turned on their wehrmacht counterparts, an vice versa.

I think an underground war would have been waged, with high profile assasinations taking place, but civil war, nah.




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