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Germany Confronts Holocaust Legacy Anew


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#1 JCFalkenbergIII

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 02:16 AM

Germany Confronts Holocaust Legacy Anew
Source: NYT (1-29-08)
Most countries celebrate the best in their pasts. Germany unrelentingly promotes its worst.

The enormous Holocaust memorial that dominates a chunk of central Berlin was completed only after years of debate. But the building of monuments to the Nazi disgrace continues unabated.

On Monday, Germany’s minister of culture, Bernd Neumann, announced that construction could begin in Berlin on two monuments: one near the Reichstag, to the murdered Gypsies, known here as the Sinti and the Roma; and another not far from the Brandenburg Gate, to gays and lesbians killed in the Holocaust.


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#2 von Rundstedt

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 04:03 AM

I have made several friends of Germans, and i can tell you they are sick and tired of having the whole Holocaust thrown in their faces, the whole reliving the Holocaust year in and year out for time immemorial has a unintended backlash, i have asked them what do they think about as they are reminded about the Holocaust and the one consistent thought is that they dislike the Jews, some feel like that they are being punnished for the sins of the fathers, also they feel like second class citizens. I say it is time for Germay to stop being anchored to the past and go forth with a new future.

#3 JCFalkenbergIII

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 04:11 AM

I have made several friends of Germans, and i can tell you they are sick and tired of having the whole Holocaust thrown in their faces, the whole reliving the Holocaust year in and year out for time immemorial has a unintended backlash, i have asked them what do they think about as they are reminded about the Holocaust and the one consistent thought is that they dislike the Jews, some feel like that they are being punnished for the sins of the fathers, also they feel like second class citizens. I say it is time for Germay to stop being anchored to the past and go forth with a new future.


This time the memorials aren't for the Jews.

"one near the Reichstag, to the murdered Gypsies, known here as the Sinti and the Roma; and another not far from the Brandenburg Gate, to gays and lesbians killed in the Holocaust."

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#4 Chuikov64th

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 04:25 AM

I agree with VRs friend. I think it's about time that the German people shuck off the past. It is the past, not what the PC holocaust industry proclaims it to be, the now and forever.

#5 JCFalkenbergIII

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 04:35 AM

I agree with VRs friend. I think it's about time that the German people shuck off the past. It is the past, not what the PC holocaust industry proclaims it to be, the now and forever.


Really? The "pc holocaust industry"? A denier and revisionist term BTW:).So tell me what and how do they profit from the memorials?The Gypsies and others have long be ignored over the years. It's about time that they have been remembered and acknowledged. In addition other countries have built memorials to them too.And it looks like they wont forget what happened either. It wasn't all about the Jews.
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#6 JCFalkenbergIII

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 04:55 AM

Estonia erects monument to Gypsy victims of Nazi executions
Source: RIA Novosti (Moscow) (5-7-07)

TALLINN, Estonia -- A monument to Gypsies murdered in a Nazi death camp near Tallinn during WWII has been unveiled in Estonia, local TV said.

Estonian TV said Sunday it took the country's Gypsy community six years to find a site and collect money for the monument to about 2,000 Gypsies, who were executed in Kalevi-Lijva together with 4,000 of German, Czechoslovak and Polish Jews during WWII.

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/38549.html
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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#7 C.Evans

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 10:48 PM

Interesting as it may be but, all of the WWII German Veterans I know, never hated the Jews. However, not that im siding with anyones thought on the subject-or against it for that matter, if I were a younger German living there today, I too would be getting sick and tired of hearing about all the negativity from the past. That certainly does not mean that I would or would not; condone what happened. I am of the opinion that any war criminals cought from now till???? should rightly so-be punished.
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
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#8 von Rundstedt

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 12:47 AM

The sad is that the many German folk i have befreinded have said to me that if they show any kind of nationalism and patiriotism to show that they are proud German's but they are labelled Neo Nazis, they do aknowlege the past and are very sorry for what the Nazis did, but they don't need continual reminding 63 years after the event, they want to show how far Germany has come in the 2000's not the past of 1930's and 1940's.

#9 acker

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:13 AM

Apparently, if you want to forget the Holocaust, then you still need more reminding.

I'd like you to define "nationalism" and "patriotism" as you see it. We actually might get somewhere if you did.

Because forgetting the past results in future mistakes. As proven *I really don't know how many* times over history. And we all know how good humans are at repeating history.

#10 von Rundstedt

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:37 AM

Apparently, if you want to forget the Holocaust, then you still need more reminding.

I'd like you to define "nationalism" and "patriotism" as you see it. We actually might get somewhere if you did.

Because forgetting the past results in future mistakes. As proven *I really don't know how many* times over history. And we all know how good humans are at repeating history.


First off, i haven't forgotten the Holocaust, and i will never forget the Holocaust, and who in the hell are you to say that i need reminding, who died and made you you enforcer of Holocaust History, certainly not by me, that comment is excessively arrogant, if you want to wallow in the Holocaust misery then be my guest, i feel sorry for you as it seems that you are stuck in the past.

Second, If you want the answer look it up in a dictionary.

Third, Humans making mistakes, now there is a bombshell.

Fourth, if we are to have a true Internation Holocaust Day then why don't we be reminded of the tens of millions that were murdered by Stalins Regime, or the 100 or so million murdered by the Chinese Communist Regime, the six million Jews and other undesirable was a crime against huminity but that paled into insignificance to what both Communist regimes did, almost 160 million murdered.

#11 Slipdigit

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:51 AM

Von Rundstedt,

I understand your German friends concerns where world opinion is concerned. We in the South are hung with a similar yoke where slavery is concerned. Just because some of my ancestors may have owned another human, it is assumed by certain segments of society that I would like to do the same.

I in no way hold any current day German responsible for what happened 60 years ago. I also understand that the sins of the father are visited on his children and this may be the way it is for them. Still doesn't make it right.

As for what you say about the Stalinist deaths, numbers are of less importance. One death is too many.

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#12 von Rundstedt

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 11:19 PM

Von Rundstedt,

I understand your German friends concerns where world opinion is concerned. We in the South are hung with a similar yoke where slavery is concerned. Just because some of my ancestors may have owned another human, it is assumed by certain segments of society that I would like to do the same.

I in no way hold any current day German responsible for what happened 60 years ago. I also understand that the sins of the father are visited on his children and this may be the way it is for them. Still doesn't make it right.

As for what you say about the Stalinist deaths, numbers are of less importance. One death is too many.


I was responding to Ackers extremely arrogant comment that "I needed reminding" for his and all the uses this forum SBS Australia runs more Holocaust related stories that there ever would be in the US, i always make sure i watch those programmes, i am fully aware of the Holocaust, but i don't need some wet behind the ear upstart jusrt barely out of nappies to tell me "I need reminding".

I again understand your last comment, but when was the last time the whole world commiserated the deaths of the millions of lives murdered by Stalin or Mao, it doesn't, but it should, i would commiserate International Holocaust Day if it recognise those two evil regimes instead of conveniently forgetting then.

#13 acker

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 05:40 AM

Of course Germans of today aren't responsible for crimes in the past (well, most of them, I'm guessing that some SS survived and fled everywhere). I merely find your response off-topic.

This thread is about a Holocaust memorial being erected in favor of the Gypsies gassed, shot, and generally mistreated in some twentieth century event. Not about how you and your friends are sick about having the holocaust stuck in your faces all the time.

I'm glad you dismissed point three. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside about human nature.

If you want to have your personal grievances addressed, make a bloody thread. Once again, hijack=terrorism. I have no idea about how you feel, but hijacking a thread is far more arrogant than criticizing the event.

And, as for the definition:

Von, why do you think I asked for your definition of "patriotism" and "nationalism"? We may be on different tracks, here.

For instance, "nationalism". What are you and your friends proud of? A successful reunification of Germany or something?

#14 Za Rodinu

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:13 AM

I'd like if I may quote two posts I made in 2006-Dec-4 in this thread:

http://www.ww2f.com/...tern-front.html

On the other hand I have no quarrel with a Germany of before. I have no quarrel with the Germany of Herman Hesse, Erich Maria Remarque, of Goethe, Schiller, Brecht, Musil, Thomas Mann, Karl May and his Western stories I loved in my youth, the Grimm brothers, Erich Kästner which I also read when young, musicians like Bach, either Johann Sebastian, Karl Phillip Emmanuel, Friedemann, and Frau Bach, Magdalena who also composed, Händel, Beethoven, Brahms, Gluck, Otto Klemperer who had to flee, Emil Quantz who taught music to Friedrich the Great, Richard Wagner who had no fault others saw crazy things in his music, Telemann, Mozart who as an Austrian but we will throw him in too, Mendelssohn, Pachelbel, Schumann though I don't like him very much, Carl Maria von Weber, painters like Dürer, Holbein, Chodowiecki, Adolf von Menzel (the second 'von' on this list!, Lucas Cranach, both Elder and Younger, Burgkmair, Klee, Carl Spitzweg who painted the good life!

No, Germany has not lost its great culture, on the contrary it was able to let this brief Dark Age pass and let Germany be Germany: a great beacon of Civilization.


and also:

And if I may quote a Spaniard, I will quote Miguel de Unamuno, rector of the university of Salamanca.

"...But now I have heard this insensible and necrophilous oath, "¡Viva la Muerte!", and I, having spent my life writing paradoxes that have provoked the ire of those who do not understand what I have written, and being an expert in this matter, find this ridiculous paradox repellent. General Millán-Astray is an invalid. There is no need for us to say this with whispered tones. He is an invalid of war. So was Cervantes. But unfortunately, Spain today has too many invalids. And, if God does not help us, soon it will have very many more. It torments me to think that General Millán-Astray could dictate the norms of the psychology of the masses. An invalid, who lacks the spiritual greatness of Cervantes, hopes to find relief by adding to the number of invalids around him."

"This is the temple of intelligence, and I am its high priest. You are profaning its sacred domain. You will succeed, because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. In order to convince it is necessary to persuade, and to persuade you will need something that you lack: reason and right in the struggle. I see it is useless to ask you to think of Spain. I have spoken."

"Vencereis, pero no convencereis"? No, they did not win.


Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#15 Richard

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 05:00 PM

I do wonder, how much longer Germany is going to punish herself for what a bunch of criminals did, there has been many mass murders in our bloody history and yet what the Nazis did seems to put them at the top of the list. I think the main reason for this was it became State policy along with taking photos and filming there criminal work.

There is a flip side to this, why did the Allies not put more of an effort in hunting those war criminals down? Every so often they pop up on the news today and no action taken.

How many more museums and memorials are there going to be? Germany paid the price for following a mad man who took them to Hell. I'm not defending these bunch of criminals as I hold the same point as Churchill did we should of shot them all but that was not the case, Germany today can not keep living in the past or made to.

Germany has faced up to what Hitler and the Nazis did in the Holocaust which is now part of there bloody history, mankind can not move forward if the pass controls the present. There are plenty of books on the subject for people to read along with documentary's and so forth.

#16 Za Rodinu

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:19 AM

I entirely agree. More than time for Germany to lose its schackles to this brief episode and shine as the beacon of Civilization, Culture and Democracy it already is and has been for a long time.

There is a flip side to this, why did the Allies not put more of an effort in hunting those war criminals down?


Oh, Richard, please... read more into the subject of the Allies (all of them) helping Nazis get away for their own convenience, either for their scientific value or for other reasons.

Nazi Hunter Simon Wiesenthal Dies at 96

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#17 Richard

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 02:29 PM

Oh, Richard, please... read more into the subject of the Allies (all of them) helping Nazis get away for their own convenience, either for their scientific value or for other reasons.

Nazi Hunter Simon Wiesenthal Dies at 96


Za, me old fruit and nut. ;)

I finished reading the book on Eichmann and during the 50's and 60's the Allies lost interest as Russia was the new nasty man of Europe and not forgetting the Cuban missile crisis as well. To a point Israel did as well due to there problems on there door step so to speak of which took me by surprise, it was the work of Simon Wiesenthal who made the effort to keep hunting these Nazi criminals down.

On saying that, yes even I can see major events over took the hunting down of the Nazis.

#18 alephh

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 11:03 PM

Amazing how differently WWII countries handle their history. Just compare:
- Germany (pretty much full exposure)
- Japan (mostly denial and evasion)
- Austria (low WWII-profile so people forgot that many top nazis came from Austria)



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#19 Slipdigit

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 11:19 PM

I think that one important key concept is to remember and honor those whose death was by the hands of despots of the era. We need to do this without pointing fingers at those people living now whose only "guilt" is that their ancestors lived in the area and could have been responsible, either directly or indirectly. I would no more hold today's Germans responsible for the Holocaust than I would Martin's or Adam's ancestors for hanging Nathan Hale. I'm not trying to make a moral equivalency, just trying to show the absudity of condemning those who were not even alive at the time the atrocities occured.
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#20 Za Rodinu

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 02:33 PM

One of the wisest posts I ever saw in this forum.

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#21 Slipdigit

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 04:02 PM

Thanks Miguel. I hope it has meaning to others also.

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#22 Richard

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:46 AM

I would like to open this thread up a little for what you think of this, I heard on LBC Radio yesterday that 5th form school children and those at college in the UK should be forced to visit Auschwitz.

Do you feel this is a just thing or over the top?

From my point of view no one should be forced at all, I got nothing against those who want to visit Auschwitz.

#23 Za Rodinu

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 02:54 PM

I find this so strange... You can't find an exact quote somewhere else, can you?

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#24 Richard

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 03:46 PM

I find this so strange... You can't find an exact quote somewhere else, can you?


Sorry Za, as I said it was from the radio. I checked there site if there was a podcast but found nothing, I may check back there in a day or two just in case.

BTW
Before anyone states this is BS on the grounds of a email that did the the rounds in the press the email was saying that all kids had to visit the site by law which was now withdrawn not to upset, well you know. The radio show was asking the question should it be made legal to force them to visit, that was all.




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