Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Partisans in Greece,Yugoslavia,the Balkans ECT


  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

#1 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 05 February 2008 - 07:14 PM

What are your thoughts on the Partisans in Greece,Yugoslavia,ECT? Did they help the Allied efforts in defeating the Axis? I had read somewhere that in Yugoslavia alone the Partisans tied down 28 German and Italian divisions. I understand that the some of the divisions were not at full strength and of varying quality, but that is still a large amount of troops that could have been used else where. Who were the most effective of all the Partisans groups?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#2 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:52 AM

Moved here as I thought it was a more appropriate forum :)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#3 C.Evans

C.Evans

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,883 posts

Posted 06 January 2009 - 08:44 PM

I thought that the Partisans did a great job in keeping those 28 German and Italian Divisions occupied in trying to catch and eliminate them. Otherwise, many of those 28 divisions could have been shifted to the Eastern Front-to eventually be destroyed. Certainly these units could have been employed in keeping Army Group Center from being destroyed-specially in the huge Soviet Summer Offensives of 1944.

Juuuust my two cents worth ;-))

Edited by C.Evans, 18 January 2009 - 02:23 AM.

Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
:snoopy: :ww1ace:
Posted Image

#4 TiredOldSoldier

TiredOldSoldier

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,755 posts

Posted 15 January 2009 - 09:01 PM

I thought that the Partisans did a great job in keeping those 28 German and Italian Divisions occupied in trying to catch and eliminate them. Otherwise, many of those 28 divisions could have been shifted to the Eastern Front-to eventually be destroyed. Certainly these units could have been employed in keeping Army Group Cented from being destroyed-specially in the huge Soviet Summer Offensives of 1944.

Juuuust my two cents worth ;-))

After the September 43 armistice, so well before summer 44, the Italian troops in the balkans had either joined the partisans or been disarmed by the Germans as they were trapped deep in a hostile country without any chance of getting back to Italy. Also the Germans often used the divisions rebuilding after excessive losses as occupation troops so that "28" may include very few actually combat ready units. AFAIK the Yougoslav Partisans were the largest and actually won a few battles against regiment or even division sized occupation troops. The Greeks and Albanians became active later and the Greeks started fighting each other as soon as the Germans were gone actually requiring the British to send troops that could have been used elsewhere.

#5 C.Evans

C.Evans

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,883 posts

Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:47 PM

After the September 43 armistice, so well before summer 44, the Italian troops in the balkans had either joined the partisans or been disarmed by the Germans as they were trapped deep in a hostile country without any chance of getting back to Italy. Also the Germans often used the divisions rebuilding after excessive losses as occupation troops so that "28" may include very few actually combat ready units. AFAIK the Yougoslav Partisans were the largest and actually won a few battles against regiment or even division sized occupation troops. The Greeks and Albanians became active later and the Greeks started fighting each other as soon as the Germans were gone actually requiring the British to send troops that could have been used elsewhere.


Thanks for this, I had not known it before. ;)) I was friends w/ a Gent who served in Yugolsavia till capitulation. I sure wish he were still around to talk with. This man was a Junior Officer in a Waffen SS Partisanjager unit.
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
:snoopy: :ww1ace:
Posted Image

#6 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 16 January 2009 - 01:16 AM

After the September 43 armistice, so well before summer 44, the Italian troops in the balkans had either joined the partisans or been disarmed by the Germans as they were trapped deep in a hostile country without any chance of getting back to Italy. Also the Germans often used the divisions rebuilding after excessive losses as occupation troops so that "28" may include very few actually combat ready units. AFAIK the Yougoslav Partisans were the largest and actually won a few battles against regiment or even division sized occupation troops. The Greeks and Albanians became active later and the Greeks started fighting each other as soon as the Germans were gone actually requiring the British to send troops that could have been used elsewhere.



Touched on the the Yugoslav partisans in these threads,

http://www.ww2f.com/...-air-force.html

http://www.ww2f.com/...-1941-45-a.html
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#7 arca

arca

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 75 posts
  • LocationCroatia

Posted 13 February 2009 - 02:46 PM

Hello everybody,I'm from Croatia/ex Yugoslavia and my grandparents were partisans in WW2.As you know Titos partisans were the largest and most efficient resistance group in WW2,which was recognized by allied leaders who granted them ally status and incorporated Narodno oslobodilacku vojsku Jugoslavije (Peoples Liberation Army of Yugoslavia) into allied front encircling the Reich in 1944 from North to Adriatic to Baltic see as an equal.No allied(Soviet) troops were entering NOVJ section of the front without permission of NOVJ High Command.In 1945 NOVJ counted about 800 000 well equipped troops.All this finally allowed us to be the only socialist country in the world outside Soviet block.
The beginnings were much more modes of course.National uprising begun on june 22.1941.the day Soviet Union was invaded with less then a hundred man forming first partisan detachment near Sisak in Croatia.The movement soon spread like a flood because of hard occupation and even more cruel kvisling forces that were conducting true genocide on different etnic or religious groups,Jews,intellectuals,socialists,communists or imaginary adversaries.In the beginning partisans were functioning as a common resistance movement acting locally,on a familiar terrain with the support of local population,conducting mainly sabotages and ambushes.Soon however a real army was formed,organized in brigades(really batalion size) and divisions(really brigade size).These units were not tied to certain region,but were a highly mobile force manoeuvring all around the country.They had uniforms,better weapons,including field artillery,anti-tank guns,mortars and machine guns as well as strict hierarchy and military discipline.These units created vast areas of 'free territory'(slobodne teritorije) on which they could rely for rest and supply.In those territories crops were grown,workshops,manufactures and even small factories were built,as well as central hospital and many other things that make 'army infrastructure'.
Such strong,organized and ever growing forces were a torn in Reichs flesch,which they tried to remove all the time,several times culminating into full blooded effort, in our history known as the 7 offensives.
With end in Africa in sight,and consequently exposure of southern flank of 'Festung Europa',OKW raised partisan problem to high strategic priority.Idea was to ensure the compactness of German front on the Balkan if Allies landed there as Churchill wanted,instead of having an entire partisan army behind the front lines.In January 1943 therefore Germans launched first of their four operations (Weiss1,2,3 ans Schwartz),known to us as forth and fifth offensive.Germans usually timed their offensives in winter to have partisans on the run and away from food storages,while there was no food to be found in nature,to make them force snow covered mountains with their bad clothing and to carry their wounded through the snow.. The battles raged for nearly six months and we were victorious.In Weiss 1,2,3 (or fourth offensive or bitka za ranjenike-battle for the wounded) some 90 000 German,Italian and kvisling troops tried to annihilate 'Main Operative Group'(main partisan strike divisions with the Supreme Command and central hospital),with great skill and sacrifice some 20 000+ partisans outfought(including busting through quite a few fortified towns) and outmanoeuvred the enemy and escaped to a rugged terrain of eastern Bosnia and Montenegro across Neretva river,carrying with them 4000 wounded for several hundred km.Giving the partisans little time to wrest Germans released their deadliest, fifth offensive(Schwartz),last in that scale.This time there were 127 000 enemy troops converging from all sides on exhausted partisans on rough mountain terrain.These troops included 67 000 German troops with such elite forces as 1st mountain division,7. SS division 'Prinz Eugen',118 jagger division,369.division, regiment of Branderburgers etc.),43 000 Italian troops (divisions Taurinesse,Venezia,Ferrara,Perudia etc.) and numerous other axis and kvisling formations with full support of artillery, tanks(which was a special problem since all partisan heavy weapons were lost during crossing of Neretva) and 150 airplanes.Of 19 000 partisans 1/3 died on Sutjeska as fifth offensive is also called,but most of shock units escaped and created free territory immediately in eastern Bosnia to show to Germans that all their efforts are for nothing.Most of the casualties are consequence of need to care for swelling number of sick and wounded in central hospital with typhoid epidemic on their hands as well.They didn't leave the hospital until the end and most of 3rd division was destroyed with it,as were all the wounded massacred with dogs.Even though Hitler ordered that partisans are to be refered to as 'bandits'(as we called them) and that no positive descriptions of them are allowed,German commander wrote in his report that 'bandits are well organized,skillfully led and with a combat morale unbelievably high.' Germans also had heavy casualties(similar to ours) and since it was already June and Citadelle was approaching ,they withdrew many forces and were never able to come back in such numbers,which of course allowed even greater free territories and successes.That fall Italy surrendered and it was a major contribution to our cause since partisans occupied southern parts of country that was Italy's before Germans could move in and captured vast amounts of weapons,ammunition and supplies as well as all major cities which provided many more recruits.Germans did finally reoccupy most of these territories but after a bloody fight.Last German attempt to capture Tito with his HQ was seventh offensive (operation 'Rosselsprung') which is interesting because of use of nearly 900 paratroopers with numerous ground troops.Tito and HQ escaped for the last time this time to the partisan controled islands in the Adriatic.
Partisans were in the begging dependent on captured or manufactured weapons,later allied airborne supplies were contributing(from the fall of 1943).Very useful help was provided from the Soviets in tanks,heavy weapons and aircrafts after their fronts merged.Also Soviets took part in heavy fighting for Belgrade.
  • PzJgr likes this

#8 PzJgr

PzJgr

    Drill Instructor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,063 posts
  • LocationJefferson, OH

User's Awards

2   

Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:05 PM

I'm glad to have someone here from that part of the world to give us a perspective of the fighting in an not so known part of the war.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#9 Totenkopf

Totenkopf

    אוּרִיאֵל

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,460 posts

Posted 14 February 2009 - 12:44 AM

Yugoslavia was a horrible place for the axis to decide to occupy. The mountains, hills and forests were a great place for Partisans to run amok. The fact that the Germans treated the various ethnic groups like garbage didnt help either.

I have heard in Greece that there was a system of "pirates" boats that would travel from island to island at night and would kill the axis garrisons while they slept.

Heh.. they are scratching your paint job, Helmut!


#10 arca

arca

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 75 posts
  • LocationCroatia

Posted 14 February 2009 - 03:15 AM

Tnanks for salute PzJgr!

Yugoslavia was a horrible place for the axis to decide to occupy. The mountains, hills and forests were a great place for Partisans to run amok. The fact that the Germans treated the various ethnic groups like garbage didnt help either.


Believe me Totenkopf that Germans however horrible could not compare to Ustashe or Chetnicks,ultranationalist forces of Croats and Serbs.Ustashe came to power with German blessing,while perhaps only about 1% of population supported them.They conducted merciless massacres of Serbs and orthodox christian people as well as Croats who weren't thinking like them.They completely adopted Nurnberg racial laws,which they were not obliged to do,like Italy,Vichy France,Hungary,Finland and other axis countries didn't,mercilessly persecuting Jews,Gipsys,homosexuals etc.They operated a real death camp Jasenovac in which at least 100 000 people vanquished.Punitive expeditions were common thing,Germans having a general rule that 100 Yugoslav civilians should die for every German solider.Even though German punitive expeditions were preferred to ustashe expeditions.My grandma once explained me the obvious distinction:when Germans passed through villages,there would hardly be anyone alive,and when ustashe passed none would be spared,plus all the animals would be slaughtered.Perhaps ustashe are best pictured through report from German authorities in Croatia that described Ustashe as too blood thirsty,senselessly cruel and counter productive!?!
Cetniks were same kind of scum,but as Croatian I resent more my own peoples traitors..

#11 JeffinMNUSA

JeffinMNUSA

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,058 posts

Posted 14 February 2009 - 01:27 PM

Arca;
The War in Yugoslavia is one of the great pieces to the WWII puzzle, and a major reason for Hitler's defeat. Not just for Axis strength tied up in battling the Partisans throughout the conflict, but also for the TIMING. COULD Hitler have taken Moscow in the Fall of 1941 if he would not have had nine crack divisions battling Partisans in Yugoslavia at precisely that time? Michael K. Jones is writing a new book on the Battle of Moscow and has indicated that he will be addressing this issue.
JeffinMNUSA
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#12 arca

arca

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 75 posts
  • LocationCroatia

Posted 15 February 2009 - 10:42 AM

I wasn't aware of this fact(effect on Moscow offensive),sounds intersting though.There is however a basis for such scenario,because in October 1941 first enemy offensive was unfolding with goal to eliminate first major free territory in Central Serbia.(Uzice republic)At that time partisan forces in entire country numbered about 80 000 troops,and in Serbia alone 23 000..

#13 JeffinMNUSA

JeffinMNUSA

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,058 posts

Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:04 PM

arca;
The Yugoslavs-and most particularly the Serbian Yugoslavs-have the honor of being the first to take up guerrilla war against NAZI. Within a year guerrilla insurgencies in Eastern Europe would evolve into a major threat to NAZI power, and perhaps the Yugoslavs can rightly claim to have "led the way." The Yugoslavian resistance remained the most effective throughout the war.
JeffinMNUSA
PS. http://forum.axishis...p?f=50&t=126080
http://forum.axishis...p?f=74&t=122841

Edited by JeffinMNUSA, 16 February 2009 - 04:07 AM.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#14 mveljko78

mveljko78

    recruit

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 12 June 2010 - 10:31 PM

Here is a small piece of history. My grandmother was caught in the middle of the war with 6 children. She lived at that time in Herzegowina.
Once when a German platoon came by, a German sergeant asked her for the knife. Grandmother went pale because she thought he wants to butcher children. German eventually took knife , went to the attic and took two dried hams. Then he gave her knife back and said: "Say thank you"

Overall grandmother had highest opinion about Germans comparing to others: Italians,communist partisans,muslims, Ustashi croats and Serbian chetniks.
Croats and muslims would of course kill children on the spot. Communists and chetniks would eat everything, and that means literally everything.

#15 Rafael Boban

Rafael Boban

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:02 AM

Well I think im the only one from ex Yugoslavia and i will try to find an answer to your questions...

Partisans are not the only ones that were doing damage around Yugoslavia....Americans and their navy destroyed lot of coastal cities....I will post some pics later to show you all what they have done to Croatian city....

#16 Totenkopf

Totenkopf

    אוּרִיאֵל

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,460 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:17 AM

What city did the American navy bombard? I haven't heard of that before and I would be very interested to read further about it.

Heh.. they are scratching your paint job, Helmut!


#17 Rafael Boban

Rafael Boban

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:19 AM

Overall grandmother had highest opinion about Germans comparing to others: Italians,communist partisans,muslims, Ustashi croats and Serbian chetniks.
Croats and muslims would of course kill children on the spot. Communists and chetniks would eat everything, and that means literally everything.


Croats and muslims would kill the children?And why is that?
Ustashe wouldnt kill their own people..Only if your grandmother was a serb..

Ustashe were killing serbs and chetnicks were killing Croats....
Ustashe were killing yews and chetnicks were killing muslims...
We were quite similar....

Germans were very nice people...Only allies were looking at them like they are monsters....

#18 Rafael Boban

Rafael Boban

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:47 AM

What city did the American navy bombard? I haven't heard of that before and I would be very interested to read further about it.


City Zadar

Here are some pics:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

After the war:

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

#19 Artem

Artem

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 135 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:18 PM

I'm very interested on the US bombinds on yugoslavia. Would anybody happen to have any written references? (Even if it's a book).

Also out of interest, are there any films/books written specifically on Yugoslavian resistance? (would need to be english/translated)

It's definitely and interesting topic, however. Yugoslavia had a very powerful army, which was built up in the inter-war period, frankly I would say it could match Italy's army. It's no wonder they could put up such an effective resistance.
In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine.
-Rommel


#20 Rafael Boban

Rafael Boban

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:28 PM

most of the documents that were written were burned by communist after world war 2

Also out of interest, are there any films/books written specifically on Yugoslavian resistance? (would need to be english/translated)


Here is the movie: Battle on Neretva that is based on what was really going on over there....

http://en.wikipedia....f_Neretva_(film)

Yugoslavia was great but when Tito died it was no longer a great Yugoslavia...And it ended with war

Croatian War of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  • Artem likes this

#21 mveljko78

mveljko78

    recruit

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:18 PM

What city did the American navy bombard? I haven't heard of that before and I would be very interested to read further about it.

US army also bombarded capital,Belgrade: Bombing of Belgrade in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Civilian victims were 1160 and Germans 18

#22 Slipdigit

Slipdigit

    Good Ol' Boy

  • Administrators
  • 14,675 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:26 PM

You are trying to make it appear as though the US just decided to bomb that city for no apparent reason, when in truth, that is far from accurate. Zadar was occupied by first by the Italians in 1941 and then the Germans in 1943. If memory serves me, a state of war existed between those two countries and the United States during that period, so I would expect that damage to the city would occur.

As far as the US Navy bombarding the city, that is unlikely. The pictures you show are probably the handiwork of the United States Army Air Force.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

SlidigitAxe.png


#23 Rafael Boban

Rafael Boban

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:09 PM

You are trying to make it appear as though the US just decided to bomb that city for no apparent reason, when in truth, that is far from accurate. Zadar was occupied by first by the Italians in 1941 and then the Germans in 1943. If memory serves me, a state of war existed between those two countries and the United States during that period, so I would expect that damage to the city would occur.


I didnt say that....Yes it was a big strategic point...But it took more hits then it should have...It wasnt a planed bombing it was just "do as much damage as you can"....Like Dresden...

Anyways its past and only we can do now is talk....Zadar is renewed so there is no need to start any kind of fight about it....

#24 brndirt1

brndirt1

    Saddle Tramp

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,709 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:18 PM

I didnt say that....Yes it was a big strategic point...But it took more hits then it should have...It wasnt a planed bombing it was just "do as much damage as you can"....Like Dresden...

Anyways its past and only we can do now is talk....Zadar is renewed so there is no need to start any kind of fight about it....


Dresden was bombed by the western allies at the request of the Soviets. Perhaps the same is true here as well?
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#25 Rafael Boban

Rafael Boban

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:54 PM

Dresden was bombed by the western allies at the request of the Soviets. Perhaps the same is true here as well?


Probably not the same reason here...
Well i dont know how they teach you people in america but in Croatia we were told that USA was doing that to show how big firepower they have....Soviets were doing the same thing on Berlin....




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users