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Holocaust is Propaganda, friend says


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#1 kevman1688

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 10:00 AM

Lets start off with this, I believe my friend is an asshole. He believes that the U.S. and all the European countries made up the number of civilian casualties during the war, because before we left to go fight the Nazis it was well known that the Nazis were exterminating millions of people and we needed extra "support" so that we would go fight the war. And the only reason the European countries made up that number of (i think it was) 13,000,000 was to show everyone that we had good reason to be involved in WWII at all. He believes that really only a few million at most really died at concentration camps. And the rest is pure propaganda for the post-war. It sickens me to write down in text his opinions. All I want from you is to help me fight off this lunatic. If you have any further questions about his logic I will be happy to answer them.

#2 Skipper

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 10:12 AM

This is a typical revisionist "trend". It is not your friend's opinion, but a brainwash! He must have some Nazi friends who told him this crap. They all say the same thing but never produce any sources. There is nothing original here, we hear this kind of rubbish every week, I don't want to argue with such a person. If he is ignorant I suggest he starts leanring about the Wannsee Conference, if he is deliberatley being an asshole, then you shouldn't consideri him as a friend. Third option he's sick in the head.
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#3 Kai-Petri

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 11:04 AM

Well, there is the Holocaust records thanx to the usual German efficiency on every matter.

Holocaust Records Archive - International Tracing Service ITS Bad Arolsen Germany - 16 Miles of Nazi Files
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#4 Hufflepuff

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 01:37 PM

This is a typical revisionist "trend". It is not your friend's opinion, but a brainwash! He must have some Nazi friends who told him this crap. They all say the same thing but never produce any sources. There is nothing original here, we hear this kind of rubbish every week, I don't want to argue with such a person. If he is ignorant I suggest he starts leanring about the Wannsee Conference, if he is deliberatley being an asshole, then you shouldn't consideri him as a friend. Third option he's sick in the head.


I agree; as soon as you can get him to stop being ignorant and show him what kind of stuff that really happened, then he should change opinions. If he dosen't, he's just another arsshole in denial about something he knows nothing about: the holocaust. Good point made.

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#5 Slipdigit

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 02:00 PM

He believes that really only a few million at most really died at concentration camps.

Ask him how many deaths does it take to make it a holocaust?

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#6 Hufflepuff

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 02:11 PM

...well known that the Nazis were exterminating millions of people and we needed extra "support" so that we would go fight the war. And the only reason the European countries made up that number of (i think it was) 13,000,000...


The number is actually unknown, because there are so many mass graves and countless tons of ashes from the crematoria of the death camps. But the number is known to be in the teen-Millions. Most historians estimate the actual number of deaths in the Holocaust at around 11 million. Still an unbelivable number of people...my dad went to Dachau, near Munich, in the '80s and still thinks it is one of the most dreadful places he's ever visited, even though it was after the war. Just awful things that the Nazis did to all those poor people, and this is coming from a person of German descent. Many of my friends are Jews, and I cooperate well with them. It makes me sick to know that all this racial hatred has carried on into the 21st Century, more than 60 years after these events took place.

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#7 PzJgr

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 02:15 PM

Ask him how many deaths does it take to make it a holocaust?


I agree. Whether it is one million or six million, the organized extermination of people is just plain wrong plain and simple. Point him to the right resources and let him find out for himself (if he is really interested in the truth). If not, then yes, he is an ass for choosing to be ignorant. Way too many people have gotten lazy and just believe what the media tells them which is not always the truth.
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#8 Hufflepuff

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 02:18 PM

Whether it is one million or six million, the organized extermination of people is just plain wrong plain and simple.


Agreed, good point made PzJgr.

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#9 Martin Bull

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 02:41 PM

He believes that really only a few million at most really died at concentration camps.


....'only'.....:rolleyes:
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#10 PzJgr

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 02:47 PM

PS. Remember, how your friend is behaving defines his character. By choosing not to dig deeper to find the 'real' truth only shows that not only does he believe what he hears but also tries to convince others that so called truth. So, will you go to this person for advice? If not, then is that person a friend?
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#11 kevman1688

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 10:08 PM

Those are all great points thanks for the replies. And to some of those that were asking why I said "only" a few million. Its because he believes that there was really only a couple million that died. And that pisses me off, because he's saying that the other ten million people never even existed and that are just figments of imagination that our government came up with along with other countries. So that people wouldn't feel bad about going into Europe when we did. And that is what really pisses me off.

#12 Skipper

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 10:25 PM

Well at least you are wise enough to have your own opinion and realise your friend is wrong and I hope you will manage to convince him. Maybe he is having an attitude. It will be hard because he'll probably say Nuremberg was made up etc.. I wonder what he would say about Mengele? You can also check martyr places like Lidice or Oradour sur Glane and see the horrible things the Nazis did to women and children. If he still won't change his mind then he's sick.

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#13 S.Vestae

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 10:50 PM

Hello All,

it's a very sad history... this subject hard to tell I think

Sebastien.

 


#14 Von Poop

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 11:20 PM

Well worth a shufti Kevman:

'Nizkor' - (we will remember them.)
Holocaust Educational Resource (Nizkor)
Questions & Answers about the Holocaust
Fallacies

Something to watch out for is to check and recheck very carefully any Internet source for this kind of thing. So many sites appear to be serious but on digging turn out to be rather clever masks for extremist group's propaganda.
Distortion of the Holocaust in history is a serious aim for many, and they're often far more sophisticated than the lumpen skinhead image might imply. Solid sites have even been 'cloned' by others and had the message subtly twisted just enough to sound right on casual inspection but with darker subtexts built in.
There can also be a problem with information from certain anti-denial groups, the subject is understandably so emotively strong that it attracts axe-grinders of all stripes, and one must be fairly sure of the core beliefs & agendas of any source before using them.

Tread very carefully mate.

Ken McVay, the man behind Nizkor, is pretty solid, and hasn't come at it from any previously ingrained 'angle' or agenda, other than finding 'Hate' distasteful.
Ken McVay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kenneth McVay's home page

Cheers,
Adam.
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#15 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 12:25 AM

More directly Kevman, you might ask your "friend" why it was Germany that first extended their submarine campaign into the Western Atlantic where they attacked neutral (read US) shipping and torpedoed two US warships prior to US entry into the war. Then ask why it was Germany that declaired war on the United States a week after Pearl Harbor occured.
The point here is your "friend" is trying to argue that the US was casting about for an excuse to enter the war in Europe; yet, it was Germany that took the necessary aggressive moves against the US....and largely unilaterally...to get America into the war in Europe.

#16 machine shop tom

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 02:10 AM

There is a real effort nowadays to actually put the blame on the Jews themselves for the Holocaust. It is claimed that they are behind any number of plots to overturn (pick one) a government, to control the world's wealth, etc. People claim that the Holocaust is the result of the Jews causing WWI and the ensuing collapse of the German economy after WWI, therefore sowing their own seeds of the Holocaust.

A shameful twisting of historical events to suit the aims of the new Anti-Semitic groups.

tom

#17 kevman1688

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 02:30 AM

More directly Kevman, you might ask your "friend" why it was Germany that first extended their submarine campaign into the Western Atlantic where they attacked neutral (read US) shipping and torpedoed two US warships prior to US entry into the war. Then ask why it was Germany that declaired war on the United States a week after Pearl Harbor occured.
The point here is your "friend" is trying to argue that the US was casting about for an excuse to enter the war in Europe; yet, it was Germany that took the necessary aggressive moves against the US....and largely unilaterally...to get America into the war in Europe.


This is the kind of goods I need. I just chatted with him about these sort of facts and it just made him shut down. He has no facts or people (excluding conspiracy thoery people) to back up his very incomplete logic. But now I've realized he's just an ignorant fool that won't take into consideration the truth. Thanks to all for the input. Feel free to add more on the subject.
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#18 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 05:03 AM

With conspiricy theorists in general it is far better to base your counter argument on specifics and in particular items that directly address their theory rather than try and generalize or use emotional reasoning to counter their claims.
When presented with specific details and logical step-by-step reasoning that directly attacks their specific claims their arguments quickly fall apart and they almost invariably resort to ad homin attacks and gratitutious insults rather than continue the debate.
I suggest reading some of Michael Shermer's works among others as a basis. But, good "lawyering" doesn't hurt.

#19 bigfun

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 04:16 PM

I think the older I get the more I approach these nuts with pity, they are only spewing out what they have been told. So I try to take the time to teach and not argue. A wise man once told me,

"never wrestle with pigs...you both end up getting dirty.... and the pig likes it!"
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#20 Panzer4000

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:34 AM

With conspiricy theorists in general it is far better to base your counter argument on specifics and in particular items that directly address their theory rather than try and generalize or use emotional reasoning to counter their claims.
When presented with specific details and logical step-by-step reasoning that directly attacks their specific claims their arguments quickly fall apart and they almost invariably resort to ad homin attacks and gratitutious insults rather than continue the debate.
I suggest reading some of Michael Shermer's works among others as a basis. But, good "lawyering" doesn't hurt.

They attacked US ships to choke supplies going to Europe and the holocaust might of ended earlier as British sniper's was about to shoot Hitler but, they decided that Hitler would end the war faster from poor desicions



#21 LRusso216

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:47 AM

What are you talking about? Who attacked US ships? What British sniper was about to do in Hitler? Do you have sources for your statements? This site takes a dim view of opinions stated as facts, especially those without back-up.


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#22 Takao

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:09 AM

Well, early on the Germans went to great lengths to avoid sinking American merchant shipping.  That being said, the Germans only sank about 22 United States merchant ships between September, 1939, and December 7, 1941 - with the vast majority of these sinking taking place beginning in August, 1941.  So, it is some stretch to say that the Germans were sinking American merchies in an attempt to "choke supplies going to Europe," since much of Europe had already fallen to the Germans by the time they began to actively target American shipping.

 

A list of American merchants sunk prior to December 7, 1941 can be found here:  http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html

 

 

The British sniper plot to kill Hitler was called "Operation Foxley", poison was also considered.  The plan was drawn up in the summer of 1944 and submitted in November, '44.

http://www.nationala...on/lesson17.htm



#23 lwd

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:49 PM

..., because before we left to go fight the Nazis it was well known that the Nazis were exterminating millions of people and we needed extra "support" so that we would go fight the war..

There is a thread over on the Axis History forum that goes into what was known when in regards to the Hollocaust.  However the Germans hadn't started exterminating millions until after we entered the war, indeed I believe the mass exterminations didn't start  until after 42.  In any case the various totals and they do very to some considerable extent were post war I believe.  Certainly the troops that liberated the camps were not expecting what they found.

... And the only reason the European countries made up that number of (i think it was) 13,000,000 was to show everyone that we had good reason to be involved in WWII at all.

The fact that the Japanese attacked us and the Germans and Italians declared war was reason enough I believe.

 

 He believes that really only a few million at most really died at concentration camps.

If you consider 4-6 million a "few" million he may be correct.  As others have stated or implied it hardly diminishes the rational for going to war though does it.



#24 phylo_roadking

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:13 PM

However the Germans hadn't started exterminating millions until after we entered the war, indeed I believe the mass exterminations didn't start until after 42.

 

Indeed - and more specifically I've often seen it in print that the change in policy was a direct result of the U.S. entry (by whatever mechanism/means) into the war. The Nazis suddenly found the mirror of worldwide public opinion  controlled by the U.S. NOW firmly turned against them...and every other possibility for getting rid of the Jews....the Central African transfer, Madagascar etc....was suddenly closed to them.

 

 

I've yet to see it...or rather, I've only seen it in the most pus-filled cesspits of the Internet...said that the Holocaust was thus caused by the U.S.! But the impetus for finding a "domestic" solution to the "Jewish Question"...I.E. a solution within the bounds of the Greater Reich...was almost certainly given by the rest of the World still not in the war, and remaining Neutral, being suddenly shrunk to a handful of small nations in the arse-end of nowhere...

 

As noted elsewhere in the thread...the U.S. didn't actively seek an entry into the war - it was thrust upon them in both hemispheres - but December 7th-11th 1941 was the short period in world history that made the Nazis find and plan a "Final Solution" within the lands they controlled for the moment.


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#25 green slime

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:40 PM

There are a lot of grey areas concerning the Holocaust, and a lot of smoke and mirrors obfuscating facts, but it is fundamentally undeniable, that it took place, that it was a deliberate attempt to commit genocide, and that it was on a scale dwarfing anything ever seen in Europe. The Jewish World Congress estimated 6 million dead soon after the war, and that is the most often-quoted number.

 

Sadly today, the whole debate surrounding the number has become very infected, and I'd not touch it with a ten-foot pole.

 

As to whether the USA "actively" sought war or not, it could be said they could definitely have been more passive. The entire Commonwealth owe a great deal to USA's willingness to not let itself be initimidated. The USA could very easily have turned the other check in those important years.






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