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German armour in the Ardennes ?


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#1 uksubs

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:05 PM

Were the German tanks in the Ardennes painted white :confused:

#2 Za Rodinu

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:34 PM

Some were, some weren't... "Painted white" means "got a coat of whitewash".

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#3 Martin Bull

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:09 PM

I don't think that anyone has ever made a study of this. As Za says, it seems to be 'ad hoc', many vehicles just getting a quick once-over with whitewash. Confusingly, in many photos it is difficult to tell what is whitewash and what is actual snow and frost.
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#4 PzJgr

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 07:23 PM

Now that is a beautiful photo of the panzerwerfer. Not many of those around.

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#5 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 02:43 AM

For the most part no. Photos suggest few were whitewashed.

#6 uksubs

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:00 AM

For the most part no. Photos suggest few were whitewashed.


Where there any Tiger white washed :confused:

#7 Za Rodinu

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 07:37 AM

First of all, were there any Tiger units involved in the Ardennes at all? Hmm, apparently yes, sPzAbt 506 (but with Tiger I or II ???)

edit: according to http://www.chsk.com/...wolf/tigers.htm 506 was reequipped with Tiger II in August 44, so apparently there wouldnt be many Tiger Is in Wacht am Rhein, the only other Tiger unit there was SS sPzAbt 501 also with Tiger II. Perhaps sPzAbt301 Funklenk, but these should be control vehicles for demolition bugs (BIV Sprengladungsträger).

If this is for modelling purposes I would suggest you look for vehicle photos and model the specific vehicle depicted.

As a matter of fact one difficulty I have with vehicle modellers is that whereas airplane modellers go to extensive pains to reproduce specific specimens in termas of colour, markings, location thereof, paint scheme variations exactly as depicted in the photo, etc, all the rest are labeled "spurious" and laughed off competitions. On the other hand vehicle modellers are free to present "generic" paint schemes, and even use generic colours as "as we all know colour was subject to production variations, fading, weatheringso there is really no point in using the correct RAL or FS595 standard, blsh, blah, blah". Why should vehicles be allowed to be imaginary while airplanes take that rigorous approach?

Careful, this is "somewhere in the Eastern Front"!!
http://www.alanhamby...llery/16220.jpg
http://www.alanhamby...er_venemaal.jpg
You need a Tiger to pull a Tiger, or a number of Sdkfz 9s!
http://www.alanhamby...lery/rt-093.jpg

More Eastern Front:
http://www.alanhamby...lery/east32.jpg
http://www.alanhamby...ger_column2.jpg




Hehehe, you're stuck!
http://www.alanhamby...er_venemaal.jpg

A good site: http://www.alanhamby.com/tiger.html

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#8 m kenny

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 12:07 PM

There were some 'old' Tiger I's attached to 506 as the 4th kp. Known as Schwere Panzer Kompanie Hummel they were not involved in the main offensive

#9 uksubs

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 05:31 PM

First of all, were there any Tiger units involved in the Ardennes at all? Hmm, apparently yes, sPzAbt 506 (but with Tiger I or II ???)

edit: according to Tiger Tank Battalions during WWII 506 was reequipped with Tiger II in August 44, so apparently there wouldnt be many Tiger Is in Wacht am Rhein, the only other Tiger unit there was SS sPzAbt 501 also with Tiger II. Perhaps sPzAbt301 Funklenk, but these should be control vehicles for demolition bugs (BIV Sprengladungsträger).

If this is for modelling purposes I would suggest you look for vehicle photos and model the specific vehicle depicted.

As a matter of fact one difficulty I have with vehicle modellers is that whereas airplane modellers go to extensive pains to reproduce specific specimens in termas of colour, markings, location thereof, paint scheme variations exactly as depicted in the photo, etc, all the rest are labeled "spurious" and laughed off competitions. On the other hand vehicle modellers are free to present "generic" paint schemes, and even use generic colours as "as we all know colour was subject to production variations, fading, weatheringso there is really no point in using the correct RAL or FS595 standard, blsh, blah, blah". Why should vehicles be allowed to be imaginary while airplanes take that rigorous approach?

Careful, this is "somewhere in the Eastern Front"!!
http://www.alanhamby...llery/16220.jpg
http://www.alanhamby...er_venemaal.jpg
You need a Tiger to pull a Tiger, or a number of Sdkfz 9s!
http://www.alanhamby...lery/rt-093.jpg

More Eastern Front:
http://www.alanhamby...lery/east32.jpg
http://www.alanhamby...ger_column2.jpg




Hehehe, you're stuck!
http://www.alanhamby...er_venemaal.jpg

A good site: Tiger I Information Center | PanzerKampfwagen VI: The Legendary Tiger I



So there not much change this model could be schwere Panzer-Abteilung ( Tiger/Fkl ) 301 in the Ardennes then ?
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#10 Za Rodinu

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:24 PM

I doubt it very much. First of all all that zimmerit is out of place and time, the Tiger decal belongs to a different unit, and the white finish looks sprayes, not white-washed.

Find a photo from sPzAbt 301 (FKL) (good luck, by the way), and we'll talk again!

To help you in your quest grab your Babelfish and look here:
Thema anzeigen - s.Pz.Abt. (Fkl) 301 - Panzer-Archiv

"Willkommen im Club der "Liebhaber" sog. "dubioser" Einheiten"
Welcome to the Lover of Dubious Units Club - Sounds ominous, doesn't it? :D :D :D

And by the way, in the chronology here there isn't much of a mention of Wacht am Rhein (the Ardennes offensive) so it appears you've reached a dead end, sorry... Welcome to the joys of doing serious modelling research :)

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#11 uksubs

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:57 PM

[quote name='Za Rodinu']I doubt it very much. First of all all that zimmerit is out of place and time, the Tiger decal belongs to a different unit, and the white finish looks sprayes, not white-washed.

Find a photo from sPzAbt 301 (FKL) (good luck, by the way), and we'll talk again!

Will this one do :PPosted Image

#12 m kenny

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 08:33 PM

Hummel and (fkl) 301 did not fight in the Bulge. Check pages 134/135 of Restayn's TOTWF for more pics.

#13 Za Rodinu

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 09:11 PM

If M Kenny says they didn't then they didn't!!! :grad:

Concerning the pic above notice:
- the late style wheels
- the absence of zimmerit
- the late style cupola
- absence of markings
- the flattened suspension (internal fire which removed the temper from the torsion bars)
- last but not the least, Geilenkirchen is 110km from Bastogne as the crow flies, so this is pic is not in the Ardennes !!!

Why don't you say your Tiger is for instance, Winter 43-44 instead, eh?

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#14 uksubs

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 09:28 PM

Hummel and (fkl) 301 did not fight in the Bulge. Check pages 134/135 of Restayn's TOTWF for more pics.


Thanks for that :)

#15 m kenny

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 11:49 PM

The Tiger did have zimm. I had a screen grab of the side of it showing the pentration in detail but can't find it right now and the zimm is clear. You can still see the remains on the turret front top and on the lower bow plate.
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#16 uksubs

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:38 AM

If M Kenny says they didn't then they didn't!!! :grad:

Concerning the pic above notice:
- the late style wheels
- the absence of zimmerit
- the late style cupola
- absence of markings
- the flattened suspension (internal fire which removed the temper from the torsion bars)
- last but not the least, Geilenkirchen is 110km from Bastogne as the crow flies, so this is pic is not in the Ardennes !!!

Why don't you say your Tiger is for instance, Winter 43-44 instead, eh?


It not me who is saying it a Ardnennes Tiger but the maker of the tank The collectors showcase ;)

#17 uksubs

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 05:11 AM

[quote name='Za Rodinu']If M Kenny says they didn't then they didn't!!! :grad:

Concerning the pic above notice:
- the late style wheels
- the absence of zimmerit
- the late style cupola
- absence of markings
- the flattened suspension (internal fire which removed the temper from the torsion bars)
- last but not the least, Geilenkirchen is 110km from Bastogne as the crow flies, so this is pic is not in the Ardennes !!!

Checking the map of the battle i think your right ;)
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#18 Za Rodinu

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 08:36 AM

The Tiger did have zimm. I had a screen grab of the side of it showing the pentration in detail but can't find it right now and the zimm is clear. You can still see the remains on the turret front top and on the lower bow plate.


Yes, now that you mention it is visible but very faint on the bow plate. Compare that with the heavy application seen on the model. Again, the impressionistic and irrealistic school.

Checking the map of the battle i think your right ;)


Right! Uksubs, along this thread I did not by any means try to clobber you, I was just intending to inject a dose of healthy skepticism and intellectual honesty which will only bring credibility to your efforts.

Once again, to modellers of airplanes an imaginative approach is and has been for the last 40 years anathema, every finishing detail is carefully researched. In vehicles you are not bounded by such exactitude requirements, anything is accepted. Why this difference I don't know.

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#19 Timo

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 08:44 AM

Are these just examples of white washed German tanks? Because none of these pics were taken during the Ardennes battle. They're all Eastern Front.

Some were, some weren't... "Painted white" means "got a coat of whitewash".

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

#20 Za Rodinu

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 01:04 PM

Well, the middle one with the Yank isn't... The others are, but whitewash is white (of sorts) here or there! :)

When you are removed from your books and you have to depend on the Internet your choice can be limited, sorry!

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#21 uksubs

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 03:08 PM

Yes, now that you mention it is visible but very faint on the bow plate. Compare that with the heavy application seen on the model. Again, the impressionistic and irrealistic school.



Right! Uksubs, along this thread I did not by any means try to clobber you, I was just intending to inject a dose of healthy skepticism and intellectual honesty which will only bring credibility to your efforts.

Once again, to modellers of airplanes an imaginative approach is and has been for the last 40 years anathema, every finishing detail is carefully researched. In vehicles you are not bounded by such exactitude requirements, anything is accepted. Why this difference I don't know.


I'm glad for your input mate :)
The reason I posted in the first place was to get for intell on the subject from people who know more about it :)

#22 Martin Bull

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 04:10 PM

Looking through some of my 'Bulge' books, it seems that we all take it for granted that there are lots of photos of German armour involved, but.....

...when you actually look at them, most of the photos are of knocked-out vehicles, taken after the battle ( by which time they'd all acquired a nice coating of snow and/or ice ). True, there are pictures from the PK-berichter but these were usually accompanying rear-echelon units ( such as the slow-moving King Tigers ).

The 'whitewash' question is surprisingly difficult to prove.....:confused:
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#23 Mats

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 05:51 PM

Martin!

In "The Liberation of Europe" (7 DVD´s there is one called "Attack of the Wehrmacht" It is about the Bulge and one can see some german tanks. But I am not the man to swear that the tanks have been painted or not. Some might be, but??

Do you have that dvd? If not I can see if it possible to make a copy for you.

Best regards

Mats
Mats R




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