Spain and portugal joined the axis?

What you think if spain and portugal would have joined the war with the axis? in 1940 right after the fall of germany?

Did spain portugal have a big navy in world war 2? and what about there airforce and armies?

i know they finished a civil war in 1939 but where they bankrupt and with no army?




Also wat if in 1041 sweden would have also joined the axis? did they have a big and good army? good airforce? and navy?

 

No. Neither had a significant navy. The number of ships was small, and they lacked much of the modern communications and fire control equipment other nations had. The Germans could have provided some of that equipment, but at the expense of shorting German forces of similar items. The armys and airforces were limited, with a few elite units and the rest small or poorly equipped.

In any case Portugal had been a British ally for over a century. A Portuguse alliance with Germany would have instantly cut Portugal off from its colonial empire, a economic loss Germany could not have made up.

Spain was certainly very poor after its war. One leg of its economic recovery was trade with other nations, and forgein back credits. Germany could provide neither in any usefull ammount beyond what it already contributed.

Swedens military was barely capable of self defense. By late 1944 it had built a small offensive capability. This was a light infantry force and logistics group for intervining in Norway and Denmark should Germany abruptly collapse. The war did little for Swedens economy.

Germany might have been able to use the additional men. But, arming them and sustaining the economys ofthese new allies would have been difficult.

 

ah right wat about if switzerland joined the axis or it to was not that good? i know swissterland had a history of no wars but still?


and is it true that ireland was gonna join the axis and that would have been really bad for the english or that is not true?

also spain contributed with the blue division? apparently spain had to either make the blue division smaller or join the war right?

 

About 45,000 Spainiards fought on the Eastern Front, mostly in the Blue Divsion. Germany provided most of the equipment for them. On any specific day the strength of the Blue Divsion and its supporting units was Blue between 15,000 and 20,000. The balance were replacements for the sick, wounded, and dead.

Switzerlands army was trained and equipped for defense. It was better equipped than the others, and during the war it more or less doubled its defense capability. While Switzerland was wealthier than the others it still did not have the surplus industry to help Germany. Most of what it could spare was purchased by Germany anyway.

What nazi Germany needed was raw materials, and manufactoring capacity. For that it made more sense to keeps its friends nuetral to act as safer conduits for raw materials and goods like trucks. There have been a couple discussions about the possible benefits for Germany of Italy remaining nuetral and just selling Germany the things it needs.

``...and is it true that ireland was gonna join the axis... ``

No. The Irish disliked the English and the government cooperated little with Britian, but they had no serious desire to enter into a doubtfull war. Had London somehow fallen to a German army then the Irish would have considered occupying the five northern counties surrounding Belfast. But, that would have to be after the British were largely defeated. Irelands army ammounted to a police force with machineguns and a few cannon.

The fundamental problem is Germany was effectively bankrupt by 1941. It was unable to equip additional men or compensate these other nations for their economic losses from the war.

 

And the Sin Fein and other organisations alike wich gave the British much trouble...

Portugal couldn't join the axis as if it did so the British would invade us and simply partake us from our colonies...

Franco asked too much of the Germans for Hitler to consider to have them join the axis. Also, he was a rather unpleasent fellow. After Hitler met with him, he said he'd rather pluck all of his teeth out than to be in the same room as Franco again...



Cheers...

 

Portugal had an extremely limited economy and was certainly in no way able to contribute anything to the Reich other than providing an immediate target for invasion by the Allies. Remember all the African colonies that were economically under developed, the Atlantic islands where in any case basing rights were ceded to the Allies for anti-submarine warfare and transit points (Iceland was better positioned for great circle navigation, by the way). The best ships in the Portuguese navy at the time was composed of four destroyers (Douro class), made in Portugal per British plans, plus three Brit made so-so submarines, and that was it. Pretty modern, aren't they?



The Air Force was almost entirely made up of Brit planes provided in exchange for the above said basing rights, and before that a number of JU-52 bombers!!!, 10 (ten!!!) JU-86 ditto, (10 too!!!) Breda 95 flying pieces of sh1t had been purchased from Germany and Italy, but anyway most of these were wiped out during a cyclone

Spain was trying to recover from an extremly damaging civil war, had made a lot of unaffordable demands on Hitler (mentioned in another post), and Franco was very glad to supply some manpower to Hitler for his famed Blue Division, thereby being glad to find a way to rid himself of the hottest hotheads which had been demobilised after the civil war. Kind of Arab nations of today getting rid of troublemakers by sending them to Iraq to fight for Al Qaeda and thereby going to die far away from the home turf.

Having these "allies" and having to maintain them economically and militarily would be more of a chainball than an asset, so best leave them as neutrals and exchange some ore and foodstuffs from occasional armaments that might be spared.

 

The chances of Ireland entering the war on the German side were about zero. As long as Britain held out Ireland would remain neutral, but in the saying of the time "I know we are neutral, but who are we neutral against?" a reflection of Ireland's pro-Allied stance. If Britain had been defeated and occupied then Ireland's army - about two infantry divisions strong but with few heavy weapons - could not have resisted any German invasion. Britain is said to have drawn up plans to invade the Free State (as it was then called) to forestall a German landing and likewise it is unlikely the Irish army could have resisted a determined British invasion. The only real surprise is that Ireland did not join the Allies later (1944) when the tide of war was obvious. But Prime Minister De Valera was obssessed with ascerting Irish soveriginty even it it meant losing out of the benefits (Marshall Plan aid) of being on the winning side.

 

Switzerland?

 

In the short run Spain and Portugal joining the Axis gives Germany some small benefits. They would gain possibly an extra two or three infantry divisions for expeditionary purposes (eg., invading Russia) instead of just one volunteer one. However, these were likely to be more poorly equipped than the German supplied Blue Division was as they would be drawing on non-German resources most likely.
Gibralter would fall giving the Germans a bit of an advantage in the Med. Malta might fall as well as resupplying it would be made more difficult.
In the Atlantic, the Germans would have a few new basing options for their submarines but these would require some development to take full advantage of. The British would now take the Azores outright, and the Axis would have been unable to stop that move.
In the long run however, adding Spain and Portugal to the Axis is really bad for Germany. The biggest problem is they now have over an extra thousand miles of coast line to defend against invasion. Neither Spain or Portugal brings much in the way of resources or industrial capacity to the table either. Without Spain as a neutral this trade route is now cut off and with it the possibility of shipping goods in via those countries.
There is still alot of communist sympathizers in both countries partially as a result of the just concluded civil war in Spain. This means there will be an active resistance and spy movement when Germany attacks Russia. This would probably force Spain in particular to get Germany to bring in troops to help secure the country and borders. It is likely that this would pull more German troops from other places than Spain or Portugal make up for in return.
Portugese overseas possessions in Africa would likely be overrun in short order by the British. The resources in these countries would now be in the hands of the Allies and denied to the Axis. Once the US enters the war the threat of invasion increases greatly with the resulting need to fortify all of that additional coastline. This will sap German resources significantly.
So, as the war progresses Spain and Portugal become an ever increasing burden on Germany just as Italy did rather than being useful allies in concluding the war.

 

In our defense, we made extremelly high quality shoes and carpets (wich I bet any German soldier would kill to have at the eastern front ).

This would make a nice what if thread... On what would change after the war if Spain and Portugal had joined the Axis...


Cheers...

 

Put simply Spain is already Fascist, Portugal is not and as mentioned had an alliance with Britain for centuries.

There however can be a way that Spain and Portugal can be Axis and it goes like this

26th July 1936; General Francisco Franco requests that the Germans airlift his Army that is at this moment in Spanish Morrocco, Hitler agrees but at a price, that Spain must enter into a Mutual Assistance treaty with both Germany and Italy or that the airlift won't happen.

27th July 1936; General Francisco Franco has no choice but to enter into a Mutual Assistance treaty with Italy and Germany.

28th July 1936; German aircraft begin to arrive to airlift General Francisco Franco's Army.

30th July 1936; Italian aircraft begin to arrive to airlift General Francisco Franco's Army.

Franco wins the Spanish Civil War, but the price has to be paid and that price is that Spain, Italy and Germany in secret sign a Mutual Assistance Treaty, thus binding Spain to the Axis.

WW2 breaks out and goes the way it goes, but the turning point is when Taskforce H attacks the Vichy French Fleet. Spain declares war on Britain and as this takes place a simultanious attack by 6 German and Spanish Divisions manages to take Gibraltar, Gibraltar is ceded to Spain. The end Result is that the Western Mediterannean is now closed off to the RN.

With this in Portugal right wing parties begin to aggitate an alliance with Germany, Britain is losing support, as Britain can not now assure Portugal's sovereignty as she has problems of her own, this weakens the Portugese Government, and within months the right wing stages a sucessful coup and Portugal declares her Axis intent, both Spain and Portugal open their ports to Axis ships.

v.R

 

Looks like a plausible scenario, vR. It has a historical feel.
One thing to add. Under your scenario, shouldn't Spain been involved already when Germany invaded France?

 

Slight problem with the cenario there... Portugal was already Fascist before Spain... since 28 May 1926...



Cheers...

 

What right wing parties? As the other Miguel said, Portugal was a Fascist dictatorship already and the only party extant was União Nacional, the local Fascist party.

Relationships with Franco's Spain were excellent, same with Italy and Germany until the Stalingrad winds started to change. Heck, I myself was an NCO (sort of) in the Fascist youth movement (Mocidade Portuguesa) back then (Yeah, more ammo for you guys to throw at me :lol: )

The Brit alliance existed since the XIVth century, but this was more of an attempt to keep a foot in each boat. Besides, the economy was so dependent on Brit exports and imports that if we turned their backs on them the country would sink.

 

so it all would depend either spain would be good in a way for axis but another bad just like the italians though the italians were better off as they did not have a civil war i guess.

i thought of spain and portugal as they were fascist as well it seemed right lol

Plus spain has had a history of having a strong empire not like England or France but spain has had a strong empire before. but it seemd like just before world war 2 europe was not as powerful as they once were.

 

Both Portugal and Spain had pretty strong empires (ours lost it's "power" after we were rulled by the Spanish kings and everyone took the chance to take Portuguese colonies away British included...). by the begining of WWII however, the Brits and French were the main poweres (france more than the British). Power shifted due to numerous reasons but what matters is it did change.



Cheers...

 

If the civil war would never have happend to u think that spain would have been a good ally? or before the civil war in 1936 spain was not that powerfull as it was in the 18 century etc...?

 

Not nearly as powerfull... POrtugal and Spain were both a shadow of what they once were...


Cheers...

 

Going in the spirit of a what if, If Spain and Portugul joined the axis, it would have strained the Germany economy even worse. As it has been noted, Spain was realing from its civil war. Portugal could only contribute manpower. The only benefit and this would be very temporary, would be them besigeing Gibralter and maybe even taking it. This would have eased Rommel's supply position and the Italian navy with help from the Luftwaffe out of Crete, could have bottled up the Royal Navy behind the Suez Canal. Other than that, not much. Germany was lucky they did not in reality join in the war.

 

That's the general drift