Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The Italian Navy during World War II


  • Please log in to reply
107 replies to this topic

#1 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:30 PM

The Italian Navy during World War II




The Second World War was a dramatic defeat for Italy and consequently for the Italian Navy. The reasons of the naval disaster are several:
a) Wrong attitudes of Supermarina (Naval Head Quarter) in conducting the war strategies - crews and Captains demonstrated every day an extraordinary courage and skill but their initiatives were always frustrated by Supermarina's too prudent policy;
B) absolutely poor coordination with the Air Force;
c) inadequate equipments in terms of radar lack and unsatisfactory precision of gun aiming systems;
d) fuel lack;
e) the enemy was the British Royal Navy, for centuries the most powerful armada of the world;
f) the Royal Navy was able to read for almost all conflict long the Italian encryipted message that should be kept secret.
Most of these reasons are the obvious consequences of the irresponsible political decision by the Mussolini's government to join the war, thinking it would be ended in few months with the victory of German ally on every front.
Posted Image Submarine Ambra's crew
The Italian militaries had to obey to the orders of the government, and they went to a war well aware that there weren't chances of victory for them. They were successful in the '30s against Ethiopians and Spanish Republicans, but the enemy they were going to face was well different.
Anyway we will only analyse the military facts and not the political ones.

War began for Italy on June 10, 1940, with only only two battleships that were combat ready, the Conte di Cavour and Giulio Cesare, battleships Littorio and Vittorio Veneto were still under training.
Others would be ready in several months: Caio Duilio, Andrea Doria. The rest of the fleet included, 7 heavy cruisers, twelve light cruisers, about one hundred and twenty destroyers and torpedo boats and over one hundred submarines.

The British were slightly numerically inferior and were based in Alexandria (Mediterranean Fleet) and Gibraltar (Force H), two of the advantages the British had, were the availability of aircraft carriers and tactics based on the use of aircraft in reconnaissance and strike roles. Italians lacked totally from this point of view, all their airplanes were controlled by th Air Force which imposed to not build any carrier. Mussolini thought that all Italian peninsula was a huge aircraft carrier: this though will be tragically wrong.
During the first days of war Italians lost 5 submarines and the British lost cruiser Calypso sunk by submarine Bagnolini. On June 27, 1940 Italian destroyer Espero is sunk by 5 British cruisers.
The first clash between the two navies was at Point Stilo two squadrons escorting the respective convoys, Italian ships (under the command of Admiral Campioni) were Cesare, Cavour, 14 cruisers and numerous destroyers, British units were battleships Warspite, Malaya, and Royal Sovereign, aircraft carrier Eagle, five light cruisers, and 14 destroyers, commander was Admiral Cunningham.
The result of this match was that only Giulio Cesare was lightly damaged, but it demonstrated the inferiority of the Italian since they were in a more favorable position and they lost a good chance to beat the British more significantly. The battle was near the coasts of Italy and if the cooperation with the Air Force had work properly, Point Stilo would have been a great victory. In addition Veneto and Littorio were almost ready for combat, and his commander, Admiral Bergamini, asked the permission to join the battle, but it was denied by Supermarina. On July 18 a British formation sunk the cruiser Colleoni, while on July, 20 British planes attacked Tobruk harbour sinking destroyers Nembo and Ostro.
On the night of October 12, 1940 British cruisers Ajax, Orion , York and Sidney sunk Italian torpedo boats Airone , Ariel and Artigliere. During this battle the British rescued the Italian survivors, even this could endangered them for the upcoming of the rest of Italian fleet. Admiral Cunningham was blamed for that by his headquarter because those days London was suffering under the continuous attacks of Luftwaffe; Cunningham answered that Italians torpedo boats fought with courage a no-chance struggle, and for that reason they deserved to be helped.
The night of November 11, 1940, the "Night of Taranto", was the saddest in Italian Seamen's history and one of the most brilliant for the British. That night all of the six Italian battleships were in the Taranto harbour; the Royal Navy planned a daring action: two strikes of torpedo-carrying Swordfish aircraft took off from carrier Illustrious, that approached undetected to within 170 miles of Taranto. Battleships Conte di Cavour, Caio Duilio and Littorio were hit by torpedoes. And only two of the twenty-one British aircraft were shot down. Littorio and Duilio were moored to prevent their sinking. Cavour sank with only her superstructures above water. Littorio and Duilio were repaired in some months while Cavour was ready again only at the time of the armistice.
On November 27, the Italian and British Fleets met again at the southwest of Sardinia for that the will have been called Battle of Capo Teulada. Italians fired first and the cruiser, Berwick , was hit almost immediately, in return the Italian destroyer Lanciere was damaged. After that both began inconsequential actions and then broke off the encounter. Italians could have had, once again, better results if Admiral Campioni and Supermarina had not so prudent and first of all if had been air support.
Posted Image Cruiser Zara's guns firing (Mondadori)
On February 9, 1941, there was another British daring action: Force H consisting of the battleship Malaya, battlecruiser Renown, carrier Ark Royal, a cruiser and ten destroyers, bombarded Genoa for half an hour totally undisturbed. After that, due to an incredible series of misunderstandings and to the poor communication, Italians did not intercept the British force.
Posted Image HMS Ark Royal
On February 25, 1941 British submarine Upright sunk Italian cruiser Diaz.
On March 28, 1941, an Italian force, under Admiral Iachino, made up of Veneto, 8 cruisers and 13 destroyers neared Cape of Matapan, in order to interdict convoy traffic between Egypt and Greece, contacted four British light cruisers and 8 destroyers. But it was a trap of Admiral Cunningham: these ships were only the scouts for the Mediterranean fleet, made up of the battleships Warspite, Valiant, and Barham, Formidable, and nine destroyers.
Posted Image Battleship HMS Warspite
After a quite long pursuing of the British scout force, the Italians were attacked by air strikes: Admiral Iachino decided to return home. Those air strike managed to slow down the Italians that waited in vain throughout the day for German air support. At sunset, the heavy cruiser Pola was hit by a torpedo and stopped.
Admiral Iachino ordered the heavy cruisers Zara and Fiume and four destroyers to stand by and assist Pola, being unaware of the close proximity of the heavy British ships (once again the lack of reconnaissance!).
The British ships, radar equipped, unlike their foe, attacked the Italian forces, completely unaware of the enemy's presence, while aiding Pola. The result was: Fiume, Pola, Zara and two destroyers, Alfieri and Carducci were sunk. 2303 Seamen died. The only British loss was the cruiser Bonaventure sunk by Italian submarine Ambra but during an action independent from this clash.
It must be said that while the Royal Navy was fair and human, attempting to rescue the Italian survivors (this aid failed because only at that moment arrived the German planes!!! They anyway gave the exact position of the survivors to the Italian Hospital ships) British propaganda lied having reported that Pola's sailors were drunk and panicked. It was demonstrated that it was not true.
There is a touching epilogue of the Matapan battle: on August 1952, on a beach near Cagliari it was found a bottle with a message "Royal Ship Fiume - I beg you Sir, to inform my dear Mother that I die for the Country. Seamen Chirico Francesco from Futani - Salerno. Thank you Sir - Italy!" The mother was informed and her son received the Bronze Medal for Military Valour.
Posted Image Cruiser Fiume
In 1941 the German ally began to send planes and submarines to help the Italian Navy to face the British and the things for Axis improved.
On April 14, 1941 while escorting a convoy to Africa Italian destroyers Tarigo, Lampo and Baleno were surprised by 4 British destroyers. Tarigo's Captain, Pietro de Cristofaro had a leg riped off but continued to lead his men under the British fire. Tarigo was almost destroyed when Tenente di Vascello Ettore Besagno and Sottocapo Marchetti managed to launch three torpedoes before sinking. One of these torpedoes sunk destroyer Mohawk. Lampo and Baleno were seriously damaged.
Posted Image HMS Mohawk
On night of March 25, 1941, there was one of the many intrepid assault of Italian commandoes in British harbours thought as a diversion for the fact of Matapan. Two destroyers Crispi and Sella approached 10 miles the Suda bay and lowered 6 small "Barchini" ( they were tiny speedboats, very fast, full of explosive and driven by one man who had to aim the target ship and jump off the boat at the very last moment; it required of course an enormous amount of courage). These "Barchini" were lead by Tenente di Vascello Luigi Faggioni.
They entered the harbour, where were 4 cruisers and many merchant ships. The result was cruiser York severely damaged (it would be totally destroyed later by German Stukas), one petrol ship damaged. The six braves were captured, and sat free by Germans later.
Posted Image HMS York
In June 1941, Germany attacked the Soviet Union and the balance of force in the Mediterranean changed. The pressure on Malta was reduced and the British were free to intercept Italian convoys to Lybia. In that period the losses of these convoys grew up to 63%.
On July 25, 1941 there was the attempted assault of Malta harbour by commandoes of X Flottiglia Mas, there died Teseo Tesei.
On september 19, 1941 Gibraltar harbour is forced by X Flottiglia Mas "Maiali" and 4 cargoes were sunk by Tenenti di Vascello Catalano, Vesco, Visentini.
Posted Image Destroyers Dardo and Camicia Nera
On November 9, 1941 an Italian convoy to Lybia escorted by several destroyers is intercepted during night by radar-equipped Force K under the command of Admiral Agnew (Cruisers Aurora and Penelope and destroyers Lance and Lively): Destroyer Fulmine was sunk immediately, Grecale was damaged and there was a slaughter of Italian cargoes; destroyer Libeccio was sunk instead by submarine Upholder.
Posted Image Destroyer Libeccio

The night of December 1, 1941, Force K again attacked a convoy escorted by destroyer Da Mosto that was sunk after an epic struggle attempting to save the cargoes from British ships and planes.
In mid-December 1941 took place the first battle of Sirte.
A huge convoy was sent to supply axis forces in Africa. A force with Duilio, three cruisers and four destroyers was provided, with support based on Littorio, Doria, Cesare, two heavy cruisers and ten destroyers. This force met a British one escorting their own convoy to Malta.
Admiral Angelo Iachino, commander of the Italians, decided to retreat to protect better the Italian convoy and to avoid to engage in a night the radar-equipped opponents. But few hours later he attacked the British surprising them while they were under air attack. But it was too late, the night arrived.
Iachino kept his forces between the British and the Italian convoy, which reached its destination safely. Supermarina claimed this non-battle a victory for propaganda reasons.
The next night, the Alexandria port were raided again by commandoes and battleship Valiant and Queen Elizabeth were sunk with a tanker as well. To know in detail this epic feat read the story of Luigi Durand de la Penne.
Posted Image Royal Navy battleship Hms Queen Elizabeth (Mondadori)
The British managed those days to sink cruisers Da Giussano and Da Barbiano but the loss of the 2 battleship with the many successes of German U-Boats in the Mediterranean swung the naval balance to the Italians and reduced losses of Axis convoy . The Royal Navy lost also, due to mines, cruiser Neptune and destroyer Kandahar, while cruisers Aurora and Penelope were seriously damaged.
At the beginning of 1942 the British decided to resupply Malta by a convoy from Alexandria. 4 ships, an anti-aircraft cruiser and six destroyers departed from Alexandria. There were also 3 light cruisers and 4 destroyers, as well as another force of destroyers supporting the convoy. A cruiser also sorted to provide assistance from Malta. Italians sent 2 heavy and one light cruiser with 8 destroyers leaded by battleship Littorio to intercept the British.
Weather was rough but the Italian cruisers found the British, who escaped away, smoking all around. Admiral Iachino kept his ships between the convoy and Malta, waiting the right moment to attack, but once again it was too late: darkness closed in, and the night (Italian's second enemy) saved the British fleet. That night the Italians lost two destroyers due to the worsening of the storm. But the British convoy was delayed and the next morning was attacked by German planes, and only few material could reach Malta. on the way home. This was named the second Sirte's Battle.
On April 1, 1942 submarine Urge sunk Italian cruiser Bande Nere.
On April 14th, 1942, Italian torpedo-boat Pegaso sunk the most glorious British submarine of WW2, the terrible Upholder, his brave captain, David Wanklyn died with his ship.
http://www.geocities.../9226/bnere.gif Cruiser Giovanni dalle Bande Nere
The months after the British managed to reinforce Malta anyway sending there a large number of Spitfires many of them from US carrier Wasp. In fact with US in the war, the balance was shifting. Malta became a bastion from which offensives could be launched anytime.
The most proper strategic move for the Axis was to occupy Malta at that moment, but Hitler preferred to push further in Egypt.
In mid june 1942 there were a series of battles involving British and Axis convoys to Malta and to Lybia respectively.
One from Alexandria consisted of 9 merchant ships and a tanker, with 8 cruisers and 22 destroyers. Littorio, Veneto, and 6 destroyers in one group and 4 cruisers and 4 destroyers in a second group sailed to intercept the convoy. The next morning, the heavy cruiser Trento was hit by a torpedo and sank the day after; battleship Littorio took a bomb hit from an American B-24 with no damage. The British convoy was assaulted by submarines and torpedo-boats and turned back to Alexandria.
Another convoy from Gibraltar sailed to Malta and with 6 merchant with a close escort and a covering force of a battleship, 2 carriers, and 8 destroyers. Italians countered the convoy with light units from Sicily, supported by air attacks and a cruiser division, near the island of Pantelleria with success this time: just 2 freighters survived of attacks and delivered their supplies to Malta.
On june 15, 1942, in the Black Sea one Italian Mas and 2 minisubmarines CB3, under the command of C.Castagnacci, sank 3 Soviet submarines.
On july, 14, 1942, again the X Flottiglia Mas assaulted, with a commando, Gibraltar's Bay sinking 4 cargoes.
On August 4, 1942, Submarine Scirè, one of the most glorious Italian units, was sunk while attempting an assault at Haifa.
On August 12, 1942, again attempting to supply Malta, the British lost cruiser Cairo (by submarine Axum) and Manchester (by torpedo boats); British ships Nigeria, Kenya, Ohio and Italian ships Attendolo and Bolzano were also damaged.
After a long chase, Italian torpedo boat Circe sunk British submarine P38, one of the most feared units in the Mediterranean Sea. torpedo boats Circe and Lupo were sunk in the same period.
On December 4, 1942 American B24s sunk cruiser Attendolo.
On December 12, 1942, Algeri port was forced by X-Flottiglia Mas ("Maiali" and Gamma men) and 4 cargoes were sunk.
Again on December 1942, Italian submarines Dessiè, Porfido, Uarsciek, Granito and Emo were sunk.

Finally the latest battleship, Roma, was ready to combat but the Italian lack of fuel grew more and more. The British took advantage of this and organized a massive series of convoys the Italians could not intercept with their heavy units because of fuel lack. Malta once again had offensive capability, and failure in taking Malta was now heavily felt. Sending anything in Africa was almost a suicide in that situation, the Italian Navy managed anyway to send in Africa 86% of material and 92% of men.
Between the end of 1942 and the beginning of 1943, were sunk destroyer Folgore, Aviere, Pancaldo, Lampo, Malocello, Ascari, Corsaro, Bombardiere, Saetta; same fate for torpedo boats Animoso, Perseo, Climene, Ciclone, Cigno, Uragano and Procellaria. While Italian torpedo boats sunk British submarine Sahib and Thunderbolt.
During the first 6 months of 1943 Italian submarines performed with discipline 129 no-chance missions against a much better equipped and numerically superior enemy: 18 subs were utilised, 11 were lost.
On April 10, 1943 American B24s sunk cruiser Trieste.
On April 16, 1943 2 Italian torpedo boats Cigno and Cassiopea engaged with 2 British destroyers: Italian Cigno and British Packenham were sunk.
British counterattacked at El Alamein and began the reconquest of Northern Africa ended in May 1943. San Marco Marines lowered last Italian Flag in Africa on May, 9, 1943.
On June 10, 1943, Allied invaded Sicily. The last Italian ship sunk by the Allies was destroyer Gioberti on August 9, 1943. Italians decided to preserve the remaining fleet, because of the total lack of fuel, for a final, huge and hopeless battle against the coming Allied forces in order to save at least the honour before being defeated. But the armistice arrived on September 8, 1943 and the Allied were no more enemies: the foe was the German.
A total confusion was among Italian militaries, in certain cases it was attempted to save equipment from the German carrying them to the Allies, in other cases some did not accept the surrender and continued to fight the Allies.
Admiral Bergamini disciplinatelly tried to save from La Spezia his division sailing to reach the Allies: with him were battleship Roma (his flagship), Vittorio Veneto, Italia (former Littorio), cruisers Avoia, D'Acosta, Abruzzi, Garibaldi, Regolo, and Montecuccoli, a destroyer escort, and many other minor ships. The group was attacked by Luftwaffe and a terrible bad luck was waiting Bergamini. One radio-guided bomb fell just into the chimney of Roma and the battleship exploded, killing Bergamini and all the crew. Italians erroneously thought that the approaching aircrafts were British so there was no air cover at all.
The convoy finally arrived in Malta.
http://www.geocities...l/9226/roma.JPG The sad end of battleship Roma. (Mondadori)
The Italian wish to continue to fight will be satisfied on September, 23, 1943, with an agreement of cooperation with the Allies, except for the battleships, signed by Admirals Cunningham and De Courten. Italians Seamen who continued to fight, gained the Allies admiration and gave a significative contribution to the liberation of Italy, starting on October 19, 1943. The San Marco Marines were the first Allied troops to enter in Venice.
After the end of the war the Italian Navy had to face a sad fate: the winner nations claimed the best of the remaining Italian ships and the treaty imposed the Italians very hard restrictions on possessing and building ships. During the tragedy of Second World War 33.000 Italian Seamen lost their lives and were lost 270.000 tons of warships. 412.000 tons of enemy warships were sunk (with the ones sunk by Air Force and by German U Boats) .
The Italian merchant Navy lost 2.513 ships (522.120 tons).

ww2
  • Za Rodinu likes this
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#2 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:32 PM

I know .I know. But its been about 4 years since it has been discussed LOL.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#3 PzJgr

PzJgr

    Drill Instructor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,063 posts
  • LocationJefferson, OH

User's Awards

2   

Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:39 PM

I see 3 major deficiencies with the italian navy. Beautiful powerful ships. Number one on the list is lack of radar. Second, lack of cooperation with the Air Force. Third, obsolete strategies. They probably were still in WWI state of mind. from what I recall, their latest battleships were well armed but without radar, does not matter. Might as well put blinders on a bomber pilot and expect him to hit target.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#4 T. A. Gardner

T. A. Gardner

    Genuine Chief

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,855 posts

Posted 16 August 2008 - 01:15 AM

Number one should be lack of fuel. They couldn't even put to sea alot of the time. That is an overwhelming problem.

#5 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 16 August 2008 - 02:29 AM

Damn Logistics again LOL.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#6 PzJgr

PzJgr

    Drill Instructor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,063 posts
  • LocationJefferson, OH

User's Awards

2   

Posted 17 August 2008 - 09:30 PM

Number one should be lack of fuel. They couldn't even put to sea alot of the time. That is an overwhelming problem.


That came to mind but I was not sure if the Italian Navy suffered from such a shortage. Even if they had fuel, that lack of radar would have killed them nonetheless
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#7 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 17 August 2008 - 11:57 PM

"Shortage of oil was also a key factor in limiting the operations of the Italian Navy throughout the war. The Italian war reserve of fuel-far too low a figure-was exhausted by late summer, 1941. The Navy’s needs were at least 200,000 tons a month for full freedom of operations: rationing reduced the men-of-war to less than 90,000 tons a month in 1941, and the situation worsened steadily.
By the end of April, 1942, Italian fleet units were reduced to the fuel supply actually on board. As a matter of fact, they never took part in another war mission after mid-June."

Oil Strategy in World War II | Oil150.com
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#8 JulioMoc

JulioMoc

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 151 posts

Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:18 AM

I'd put outdated tactics behind poor industry capacity in that list.

The Admirals knew they couldn't build capital ships fast enough to keep up with the possible losses on an agressive war against the Royal Navy. That's why they prefered "Fleet in Being".
"The Duce will have Ethiopia. With or without the ethiopians." Rodolfo Graziani

www.saladeguerra.com.br

#9 Carl W Schwamberger

Carl W Schwamberger

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,051 posts

Posted 26 October 2008 - 01:54 AM

I notice anything small and armed with torpedos was effective vs the British ships. Aircraft, submarines, torpedo boats, Maile type weapons...
So theres a what if. Could Italy have done better if it had never invested anything after 1922 in capitol ships? Instead developing torpedo delivery systems. Submarines, fast long endurance surface boats, aircraft, ect... Aside from saving all the steel, fuel and money for other projects, would a larger investment in torpedo delivery systems and similar weapons have benefitted the Italians operationally?
I forgot my password, can I use yours?

#10 Hawkerace

Hawkerace

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 844 posts

User's Awards

2   

Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:32 AM

I notice anything small and armed with torpedos was effective vs the British ships. Aircraft, submarines, torpedo boats, Maile type weapons...
So theres a what if. Could Italy have done better if it had never invested anything after 1922 in capitol ships? Instead developing torpedo delivery systems. Submarines, fast long endurance surface boats, aircraft, ect... Aside from saving all the steel, fuel and money for other projects, would a larger investment in torpedo delivery systems and similar weapons have benefitted the Italians operationally?


Didn't the Germans try something like that with all the Uboats? ;)

Im kidding, but still a bit goofy to think that torpedo-craft alone would save them.
[sigpic][/sigpic]

#11 macrusk

macrusk

    Proud Daughter of a Canadian WWII Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,712 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:51 AM

Here is a site with campaign summaries for the Italian Navy. Italian Navy, Zara, Fiume, Pola, Artigeliere, Aviere, Trento Reading the summaries it appears that the Italian Navy did have some degree of success when using torpedo delivery systems. While they may never have succeeded long term against the British Navy, they certainly caused damage to British shipping and interfered with the delivery of material (logistics again, JC) to the British Army in Alexandria.
Regards, Michelle

Oliver Goldsmith, "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines." :flag_canada_ww2: :flag_canada: :flag_uk:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#12 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:55 AM

Here is a thread I created on the lesser known involvement of the Italian Navy in Finland.

http://www.ww2f.com/...vy-finland.html
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#13 THE_TRUTH_HURTS

THE_TRUTH_HURTS

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 36 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 03:52 PM

It seems that the WW2 italian military has been described too bad here and the british seem to be overvalued, considering the massive support that they had from all the allies.
The italian military had several lacks of armament in general because of the embargo of 1935 (after the invasion of Ethiopia) that concerned the raw materials and impeded to face the war with a proper armament and enough supplies.
More over we have to consider that Mussolini was suddenly pushed into the the WW2 from Hitler without having had the time to plan and to train properly the italian military command for a world war.
Italy hadn't the WW2 in its originary plans, but only the its colonial campaigns.
Despite all, the italian military accomplished many winning battles against the allies, thanks also to its great special forces like Folgore, Bersaglieri, Alpini or Decima Mas who sank several battleships ( Comando Supremo: Naval Assault Units ). Expecially in the Mediterranean sea, the italian attacks pushed the british near to the collapse before the american coming.

ALL THE ITALIAN WINNING BATTLES AGAINST THE ALLIES

1940
June 13 - Italian destroyer Strale sinks British submarine HMS Odin off Taranto.
June 16 - British submarine HMS Grampus is sunk by Italian destroyers.
June 23 - British destroyer HMS Khartoum is sunk off Eritrea by Italian smg. (submarine) Torricelli.
July 4 - The start of a series of first moves by Italy that led to humiliating defeats of the British. Lt. Gen Guglielmo Nasi struck westward from Ethiopia into Sudan. They capture several border towns and arrive within 300 miles of Khartoum. Within 6 weeks, Nasi conquered British Somaliland, causing the British to evacuate from the Sea at Berbera.
July 8 - Regia Aeronautica bombers bomb the British cruiser HMS Gloucester. Scoring a direct hit and killing her captain and 17 crewmen. Gloucester survives, but with a crippled steering gear.
July 11 - British destroyer HMS Escort is sunk off Gibraltar by Italian submarine smg. Marconi.
August 1 - Italian destroyer Ugolino Vivaldi sinks British submarine HMS Oswald off Cape Spartivento
August 3 - British Somaliland surrenders to Italy.
November 6 - The British mount their counteroffensive in the Sudan town of Gallabat. 7,000 troops under the command of Sir William Slim storm Gallabat with tank and infantry. Without air cover, he was unable to achieve his goals. The Italian Air Force shot down 5 gladiators and bombed his troops, killing 42 and wounding 125. The attack on Italian forces ended with a British withdrawal.
December 18 - British submarine HMS Triton is sunk in the Adriatic by Italian torpedo boats
________________________________________________________________________________________________
1941
January 7 - Italian torpedo boat Clio sinks Free French submarine Narval off the coast of Tobruk, Libya.
January 24 - Considered the first real "armored clash" is spawned at Mechili. The Italian Special Armored Brigade destroys 15 British tanks and pursue the the British for an additional 20 kilometers before losing communication with the home base and turning back. They then destroy another 6 tanks from a British counterattack. O'Connor orders a two week halt to bring in fresh supplies after his 70 cruisers are reduced to 50, and 120 light tanks reduced to 95. He considers this force to small to attack the 57 M13/40's and 25 L3/35's of the Italian Brigade.
February 3 - The British attack Keren with a force of 30,000 against 23,000 Italians made up of 3 Brigades of Colonial Levies and 3 Brigades of Savoia Grenadiers. After attacks and counterattacks, the Italians were able to push the Indian Infantry Brigade back. Then the Scottish attacked and were also repelled by the Italians.
March 31 - British cruiser HMS Bonaventure is sunk off Crete by Italian submarine smg. Ambra.
May 1 - British submarine HMS Usk is sunk off the coast of Sicily by Italian destroyers
May 13 - Italian torpedo boat Pleiadi sinks British submarine HMS Undaunted off the coast of Tripoli, Libya.
May 15 - British forces receive forewarning of a possible threat by Italian forces when action in Colonel O'Connor's Squadron C of 4 RTR lose 7 out of 10 Matilda tanks by Italian 47/32 guns. Axis casualties include 592 Italians and 685 Germans.
May 27 -28 - The British are ordered to evacuate Crete. In the 3 day battle of the seas, the Italo-German forces were able to sink 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers and one battleship. Two cruisers and 4 destroyers were damaged severely. During this battle, the Decima Flottiglia Mas maneuvered six Explosive Motor Boat (EMB) through the mines and antipersonnel nets of Suda Bay and sunk the British cruiser HMS York, two tankers and a steamer.
July 30 - Italian torpedo boat Achille Papa sinks British submarine HMS Cachalot off Malta.
September 20 - The Decima Flottiglia Mas is able to complete its second attempt at attacking ships ported in Gibraltar. Human Torpedoes successfully sink 2 tankers Fiona Shell and Denby Dale and the British H.M.S. Durban. The pilots and divers successfully escape by swimming to Spanish shores.
November 19 - British attack Axis forces at Bir El Gobi. Ariete's 146 M13/40's take the brunt of the attack and stop the British advance. The Ariete deploy in three battalion sized formations with twenty four 75/27's, thirty 47/32's, twelve 105/28's and seven 102/35's. The Ariete with 73 guns and 137 tanks, engaged the 28 pdrs. and 158 Crusaders of the XXII Armoured Brigade of the British. The XXII lose 55 tanks at Bir El Gobi and spend the next two days in the Allied rear regrouping. The 21st Panzer also managed to destroy 23 of the IV Armoured Brigades tanks. Over the next few days, the Ariete attack the XXII and IV Armoured Brigade and by November 23, the Ariete, Trieste and Savona account for more than 200 British tanks destroyed along with roughly 200 British vehicles. The Bologna, Trento and Pavia Divisions contained Tobruk. Because of the independent actions of the Italian and German subordinate, Rommel was saved from disaster.
December 4 -7 - Another successful engagement by Italian forces in Bir El Gobi, when the battalion of Giovanni Fascisti maul the XI Indian Brigade, destroying 100 tanks. Norrie's troops, who had an overwhelming advantage in every area, failed to concentrate their actions against the Italians causing one arm of the Italian battalion, the "Giovanni Fascisti" to block the actions of his corps and inflicted heavy casualties on one of his brigade The Giovanni Fascisti engaged the British army corps for 4 days and severely damaging the IV Armoured Brigade. The IV Armoured Brigade had to retreat 20 miles in order to reorganize. This forced Ritchie to abandon his intent to attack Rommels southern flank and trap his forces in Gabr Saleh.
December 5 - Rommel orders a general retreat and "forgets" to notify the Trieste and Ariete Division, forcing them to fight through the British Commonwealth IV Armoured Brigade and the 7th Support Group to rejoin the retreating German forces. Rommels hasty retreat cost the Italian Ariete and Trieste Divisions greatly, however, their determination to fight through the surrounding British gave the Ariete and not DAK, the first major tank battle of North Africa and accounted for another 100 British Commonwealth armored vehicle losses at Alam Hamza.
December 18 - Force K, the British Flotilla assigned to protect Malta and its shipping, hits an Italian moored minefield 20 miles east of Tripoli. The cruiser HMS Neptune and destroyer HMS Kandahar are sunk, the cruiser HMS Aurora is badly damaged and the cruiser HMS Penelope is slightly damaged. The site of the stricken ships limping back to the Grand Harbour brought a sense of fear into the Maltese people, who depend on the protected convoys to survive.
December 19 - The H.M.S. Valiant and H.M.S.Queen Elizabeth, while moored in the port of Alexandria, are critically damaged by explosions under their keels planted by Human Torpedo's operated by Italian frogmen of the Decima Flottiglia MAS. The damage was so great that these two ships were deemed unseaworthy. Along with the Battleships, the tanker Sagona and the British Destroyer Jervis were also severely damaged. Two Italian frogmen are captured, Lt. Luigi Durand de la Penne and Lt Bianchi. They refused to divulge any information until moments before the explosion (because they were being interrogated right above the area of the keel where the explosion was to occur). This attack, which neutralized the ability of the British to oppose the Italian Regia Marina with its battleships, allowed deeply needed convoys to supply Axis forces in Africa.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
1942
January 23 - Italian intelligence begin giving Rommel daily British Order of Battle. Italians give the Marcks Group more power by presenting the self propelled Semovente 75/18.
February 6 - The British are pushed back to Gazala. The British Commonwealth forces lose 40 tanks, 40 field guns and 1,400 troops. This was a disaster for the Allies in more ways than one. Now the Allied convoys to Malta must pass between Axis occupied Crete and Axis airfields in Benghazi.
February 13 - Italian torpedo boat Circe sinks British submarine HMS Tempest off Taranto.
February 25 - British submarine P38 is sunk off the coast of Tunisia by Italian destroyers.
SECOND BATTLE OF SIRTE
March 22 - Admiral Iachino sets sail in his flagship, the Vittorio Veneto, along with 2 heavy cruisers, the Gorizia and Trento, light cruiser Bande Nere and four destroyers to intercept a convoy. The convoy were protected by 3 fast frigates, along with the Clan Campbell, the Pampas the Norwegian Talabot, the Breconshire , the Carlisle and 6 destroyers were then joined by the Penelope and the destroyer Legion.
At 9:30 A.M., Italian torpedo bombers began the attack on the convoy and it's escorts, causing no damage. The Luftwaffe then appeared and again no damage to the convoy. At 1:30 P.M., most of the Italian and Allied ships made sight of each other. The Allied fleet immediately began making smoke to prevent accurate range finding by the Italian vessels. The Italian heavy cruisers opened fire and began to turn away once the Carlisle and a destroyer began to fire back. The British assumed they were retreating. It was, however, a trick to attempt to get the Allied ships within range of the still unseen Battleship Littorio's 15" guns. The Allies did not fall for it.
At 4:30 P.M., the opposing fleets again made sight of each other. The Euryalus and the Cleopatra were both peppered by Italian shells. The winds began to increase to gail force strength and coupled with the smoke screen, it became difficult for the Italian ships to get into position to fire. Once the Vittorio Veneto found a clearing, it badly damaged two Allied destroyers (one had reduced speed, the other temporary crippled in the water). With the worsening of conditions, and slight damage to the Vittorio Veneto, Admiral Iachino disengaged the attack.
MARETH
March - Italian forces inflict heavy loses on British 56th division.
April 14 - The most respected British submarine HMS Upholder is sunk by Italian Torpedo Boat Pegaso off the coast of Tripoli, Libya.
April 28 - British submarine HMS Urge is sunk by Italian Torpedo Boat Pegaso off the coast of Libya
ENFIDAVILLE
April 29 - Italian forces inflict considerable losses on the British 56th Division as soon as it reached the battlefield.
May 26 - Trieste makes its way through British minefields and the Ariete destroy the III Indian Motor Brigade and hold the IV Armoured Brigade because the German 90th Light proved to weak to both attack and guard the Axis flank.
26 May to 21 June - One of the high points of Rommel's African military tactics in which Auchinleck and Ritchie could not take advantage of the situation and as a result, the British 8th army was beat back.
May 31 - Italian guns inflict heavy losses on the British near Sidra Ridge. The Ariete pound the II and XXII Armoured Brigade. Bastico reports "The Italian XX Corps fought well, the DAK, not so well. The 90th Light was in retreat."
June 1 - Rommels Axis forces break through the Gazala line, destroying 100 British tanks and taking 3,000 British POW's.
June 5 - 6 - British Commonwealth forces mount a major counteroffensive code named "Aberdeen". The Italian X Corps holds them up in the North and the Trieste and 90th Light contain the French at Bir Hacheim. The Ariete joins the 15th and 21st Panzer to battle the 42nd and 7th Royal Tank Regiments, including the II, IV and XXII Armoured, IX and X Indian and the CCI Guards brigades. The Ariete and Italian artillery repulse the British at Sidra and Aslagh ridges.
June 11 - Bir Hacheim falls to an attack by the Trieste and the 12th Ariete pepper the XXII Armoured and CCI Guard brigades. After a decisive victory, the Ariete attack the IV Armoured Brigade with the 21st Panzer.
June 14 - The Regia Marina sends the Italian 7th cruiser division (cruisers, submarines and torpedo bombers) under Admiral da Zara in the flagship Eugenio di Savoia from Palermo, Sicily to intercept. In the following battle the Regia Marina's direct attack sank the British destroyer Bedouin and forced an altered and delaying route on the British, allowing the Axis air forces to reduce the convoy from 6 to 2 transports. Only 2 merchant ships, the Orari and Troilus, along with the Welshman, were able to make it to Malta.
Mid June - Operation Vigorous, which included 11 merchant ships, seven cruisers and 28 destroyers was the largest convoy to set sail for Malta. The convoy had to turn back around and return home to Alexandria, Egypt once it was noted that the Italian Battleships Littorio and Vittorio Veneto, along with 2 heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers and 12 destroyers were dispatched to intercept them.
Total Allied damage included 8 merchant ships sunk, 3 damaged, 5 cruisers damaged, 4 destroyers sunk, 1 destroyer damaged, 2 corvettes damaged and one torpedo boat sunk. Only 1 Italian heavy cruiser was lost, scuttled by the Italians due to severe damage.
These two operations were major Italian naval victories, but the downfall was that the oil shortages became so great for the Italian military machine, that such large Italian naval operations were rarely seen again.
June 20 - The Africa Corp and Italian XX Corp begin pounding Tobruk, eventually resorting to hand to hand combat with the British who are under the command of Klopper. Italian Caproni's, German Junkers 88's and Stukas bomb Tobruk to mercy. See Battle Map..
June 21 - Klopper surrenders Tobruk to the Afrika Korps. The spoils include 33,000 POW's, roughly 2,000 vehicles, 30 tanks, 400 guns and much needed fuel. Italian destroyer Strale runs aground off Tunisia and is scuttled. Rommel pursuades Hitler to approve and advance to Egypt. Cavallero, Kesselring and Mussolini do not agree with his actions.
July 22 - Trento, Brescia and Ariete capture 1,400 British POW's and destroy 146 tanks in a unsuccessful British strike.
July 27 - The Axis supply crisis ends and the Trento artillery destroy 27 tanks, 30 vehicles and capture 1,000 POW's during an Axis counterattack after the 9th Australian and I Armoured Brigades overran the Trento 61st Battalion and the German 361st Regiment. The British are now just as exhausted and the Italian XX Corps maul the New Zealanders, thanks mostly to Italian artillery and mines which destroy 86 of the XXII Armoured Brigade's 97 Valentines and 120 New Zealand anti-tank guns.
End of July - The British try to break through the Folgore Parachute Division at Deir el Munassib, but Folgore's strong defense repell the attack and cause the British substantial losses in men and vehicles.
August 6 - Italian Torpedo Boat Pegaso sinks British submarine HMS Thorn off Tobruk, Libya. (Note: Pegaso sinks 3 British submarines in 4 months.)
December 25 - Italian Torpedo Boat Ardente sinks British submarine P48 off the coast of Tunisia.
____________________________________________________________________________________
1943
April 28 - Italian Torpedo Boat Sagittario sinks British MTB 639 off the coast of Sicily.
April 29 - Considerable losses inflicted on the British 56th Division by Italian forces in Enfidaville.
July 17 - Italian cruiser Scipione Africano sinks British MTB 316 off Messina.

Edited by THE_TRUTH_HURTS, 01 November 2008 - 07:12 PM.


#14 Za Rodinu

Za Rodinu

    Aquila non capit muscas

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,809 posts
  • LocationPortugal

Posted 01 November 2008 - 09:17 PM

Holy Mackerel, I wasn't aware the Brits had surrendered to the Italians in September 1943! At least that's what it looks like! :D

Truth hurts like heck :lol:

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#15 THE_TRUTH_HURTS

THE_TRUTH_HURTS

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 36 posts

Posted 02 November 2008 - 03:55 PM

On September 1943 the new government led from Badoglio signed the armistice with the "AMERICANS" who led the invasion of Italy. The other allies just supported that campaign with a minor role.
Italy hadn't anymore resources to face the war.

Instead Mussolini and the fascists were in the north governing the Salò republic and they never surrendered and never betrayed their ally, the germans.
They fought till the end.

Edited by THE_TRUTH_HURTS, 05 November 2008 - 11:51 AM.


#16 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:01 AM

Holy Mackerel, I wasn't aware the Brits had surrendered to the Italians in September 1943! At least that's what it looks like! :D

Truth hurts like heck :lol:


LOL. Well it would seem so in other's eyes :rolleyes:. Hey "THE_TRUTH_HURTS"? Care to post the sources for all the info you provided?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#17 Slipdigit

Slipdigit

    Good Ol' Boy

  • Administrators
  • 14,613 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:25 AM

Instead Mussolini and the fascists were in the north governing the Salò republic and they never surrendered and never betrayed their ally, the germans.
They fought till the end.


Is this a good thing?

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

SlidigitAxe.png


#18 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 01:05 AM

And yet the Germans did not trust them. And the Fascists "governed "the North and never surrendered LOL? In regards to the RSI navy,

"The RSI navy would have no effect in the remaining years of the war, and by German order, the only naval vessels allowed to carry the Italian flag were those dependent on the X Flottiglia Mas."

http://www.comandosupremo.com/RSI.html

Edited by JCFalkenbergIII, 03 November 2008 - 01:11 AM.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#19 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 01:28 AM

"Mussolini realized in the months following his new appointment that the RSI was little different than the other occupied countries of Germany. Northern Italy was to support the German war effort. Mussolini was flanked by German counselors, and even protected by 30 SS men of Hitler's personal body guards. After complaints by Mussolini, Italian troops were finally authorized to protect Mussolini to the same degree as the SS detachment. Mussolini also demanded the release of Italian military prisoners, but Hitler only counteroffered with better treatment of them. Mussolini would always push for more autonomy, but little was ever given."



"By January 1945, the Russians had entered Germany and the war was all but lost. Mussolini held hope in Hitler's "Secret Weapons" to change the balance of war, but he was not convinced. Mussolini was upset that Germany was not giving him the authority he needed to do what he felt was necessary, and Graziani was aggravated that Germany could not trust the Italian military with independent military actions. Mussolini decided to move his government to Milano, where he could initiate contacts with the Allies. If these contacts did not bear favorable terms of surrender, he would establish a final front in Valtellina. This Allies would accept none other than a unconditional surrender and to Mussolini's dismay, only 2,000 to 5,000 soldiers could be assembled for what he percieved as a "final heroic stand". On 18 December 1944, Mussolini had moved his office to Milano. German Ambassador Rahn, suggested he move to Merano or the Brenner Pass, but Mussolini chose Milano due in part to his wish to distance himself from German authority."

"German troops surrendered in Italy on 2 May 1945 and the RSI ceased to exist. In the end, The RSI could not function as a state with the overbearing German occupation and the pressure of Partisan attacks. The last two years of the war was, in reality, an Italian civil war...fascists against partisans. Approximately 12,000 to 300,000 fascists were killed by Partisans in the last months of war. An unknown, but significant amount of Partisans were killed by Fascists. "

Comando Supremo: Repubblica Sociale Italiana
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#20 Za Rodinu

Za Rodinu

    Aquila non capit muscas

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,809 posts
  • LocationPortugal

Posted 03 November 2008 - 08:02 AM

It's time to write the history currectly. On September 1943 the new government led from Badoglio signed the armistice with the "AMERICANS" who led the invasion of Italy. The other allies just supported that campaign with a minor role.


I suppose the 8th Army led by Montgomery landed on Sicily after rolling up Germans and Italians on North Africa because they were fed up with the Lybian and Tunisian cooking and wanted to grab more Chianti supplies at the source then. It was not an invasion, it was a gastronomical expedition only.


In case you need it more explicitly:

Posted Image

What the heck, nobody in this forum denies the Italian Soldier's valour, but do we need the tub thumping?

:feedtrolls-sign:

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#21 THE_TRUTH_HURTS

THE_TRUTH_HURTS

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 36 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 11:06 AM

I suppose the 8th Army led by Montgomery landed on Sicily after rolling up Germans and Italians on North Africa because they were fed up with the Lybian and Tunisian cooking and wanted to grab more Chianti supplies at the source then. It was not an invasion, it was a gastronomical expedition only.


In case you need it more explicitly:

Posted Image

What the heck, nobody in this forum denies the Italian Soldier's valour, but do we need the tub thumping?

:feedtrolls-sign:



The real british forces were just a small part of the allies. People who hide this detail do only a mere propaganda.

Edited by THE_TRUTH_HURTS, 05 November 2008 - 11:53 AM.


#22 THE_TRUTH_HURTS

THE_TRUTH_HURTS

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 36 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 11:14 AM

"Mussolini realized in the months following his new appointment that the RSI was little different than the other occupied countries of Germany. Northern Italy was to support the German war effort. Mussolini was flanked by German counselors, and even protected by 30 SS men of Hitler's personal body guards. After complaints by Mussolini, Italian troops were finally authorized to protect Mussolini to the same degree as the SS detachment. Mussolini also demanded the release of Italian military prisoners, but Hitler only counteroffered with better treatment of them. Mussolini would always push for more autonomy, but little was ever given."



"By January 1945, the Russians had entered Germany and the war was all but lost. Mussolini held hope in Hitler's "Secret Weapons" to change the balance of war, but he was not convinced. Mussolini was upset that Germany was not giving him the authority he needed to do what he felt was necessary, and Graziani was aggravated that Germany could not trust the Italian military with independent military actions. Mussolini decided to move his government to Milano, where he could initiate contacts with the Allies. If these contacts did not bear favorable terms of surrender, he would establish a final front in Valtellina. This Allies would accept none other than a unconditional surrender and to Mussolini's dismay, only 2,000 to 5,000 soldiers could be assembled for what he percieved as a "final heroic stand". On 18 December 1944, Mussolini had moved his office to Milano. German Ambassador Rahn, suggested he move to Merano or the Brenner Pass, but Mussolini chose Milano due in part to his wish to distance himself from German authority."

"German troops surrendered in Italy on 2 May 1945 and the RSI ceased to exist. In the end, The RSI could not function as a state with the overbearing German occupation and the pressure of Partisan attacks. The last two years of the war was, in reality, an Italian civil war...fascists against partisans. Approximately 12,000 to 300,000 fascists were killed by Partisans in the last months of war. An unknown, but significant amount of Partisans were killed by Fascists. "

Comando Supremo: Repubblica Sociale Italiana


Nobody denies the defeat of the RSI, but I want only to say that who signed the alliance with Germany (Mussolini and the fascists) never changed side and never signed an armistice till the end. This detail is often forgotten and Italy is described as a country of traitors concerning the WW2.
It's absolutely false, the people who celebrated the allies coming were since the beginning anti fascist.

#23 mikebatzel

mikebatzel

    Dreadnaught

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,182 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:11 PM

It's time to write the history currectly.

I was unaware that the many sources provided by many persons on the forum was mear propaganda. You have been asked to provide a source for your information, which you have failed to do. This only leaves us to believe that you yourself have fallen victim to propaganda.
Please give the Combined Fleet the chance to bloom as flowers of death. This is the navy’s earnest request. RADM Tasuku Nakazawa prior to the Battle of Leyte Gulf
It is the function of the Navy to carry the war to the enemy so that it will not be fought on U.S. soil. Admiral Chester W. Nimitz

#24 THE_TRUTH_HURTS

THE_TRUTH_HURTS

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 36 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 01:12 PM

I was unaware that the many sources provided by many persons on the forum was mear propaganda. You have been asked to provide a source for your information, which you have failed to do. This only leaves us to believe that you yourself have fallen victim to propaganda.


What I write is so real that wouldn't have the need of supports.
However you can read the site:
www.comandosupremo.com

It's a real balanced description of WW2, saved from any propaganda expecially from the famous british one.

#25 JCFalkenbergIII

JCFalkenbergIII

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,479 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 02:13 PM

I was unaware that the many sources provided by many persons on the forum was mear propaganda. You have been asked to provide a source for your information, which you have failed to do. This only leaves us to believe that you yourself have fallen victim to propaganda.


Funny how its always "propaganda" when it goes against someone's views isn't it :rolleyes: ? I have noticed that some who come here think that they are bringing us the "truth" or are fighting "propaganda". They don't last long here. BTW In my last post I provided the source from where I got the info from. Oddly enough it is one source where part of his information came from.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users