July 1944 --- Italy or Anvil?

I have a "what-if"----

Following the fall of Rome in June of 1944, Churchill did not want Alexander's forces to be depleted by sending some of the American and French Divisions to be part of Anvil. He pleaded with Roosevelt and Eisenhower to allow the battle in Italy to be expanded into the underbelly of Europe --- Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and even to help liberate the Balkans. His reasons, which he did not reveal to Roosevelt and Eisenhower was because he was concerned with allowing Uncle Joe to control these countries following the end of the war. I believe if he had put his concerns on the table pointing out (1) the US had dozens of combat ready divisions, which could have been used for Anvil and (2) the politics of post-war Europe, he might have saved much of Europe from falling under the Soviets. He did allow landing craft to be released but did not want to loose the troops which were needed to carry on the attacks north from Italy. Comments?

 

Shouldn't this be in the WI section?

 

Personally I feel that Dragoon (Anvil was the origonal name) was a necessary operation. In the end it opened up the ports in southern France that would supply a quarter of the supllies to the Battles in Northern France. Antwerp was not opened as early as planned. had this landing occoured in the Balklands I think it would in the end have delayed ending the war.

 

I am sorry if I assumed too much. No this was in WWII. Maybe I should go into more detail but anyone who knows anything about the events following D-Day understands my What-If question is all about. If not, ask me and I will try to be clearer about the issue.

 

Perhaps you may get more imput if you put this in the WI or"What If? Forum and phrase it as one?

 

Yes it became Dragoon. As I wrote it could have easily been handled with divisions from the west coast of the USA. There was a long "fight" between the President, Eisenhower and Churchill about taking five Divisions from Alexander for Dragoon (Anvil). I have always felt that we made a BIG mistake in letting Uncle Joe gobble up the countries which should have been free. Eisenhower had no understanding of what post war Europe would be about. Churchill did. we could have taken the south of France with one division. The moving of those Divisions from Italy was unnecessary. It did nothing to help us win the war in the west. All it did was stop us from pushing through the German defenses in Northern Italy. What delayed the end of the war was not giving Patton enough "petrol" and the Battle of the Bulge (In which I was wounded and captured).

 

It was later proved that Dragoon did not need the Divisions from Italy. Churchill knew that Uncle Joe would keep under the Soviets control every country that they so-called "liberated." Churchill knew the only way to keep that from happening was to strike through the under-belly of Europe. The Americans did not understand what Uncle Joe was up to. Had we allowed Alexander to attack with all he had I have no doubt the structure of free verses Soviet controlled states would have been very different in 1950.

 

JCF, I think now the thread is in the what if section you should, err, answer the question?
You have already pointed out twice SirSwindon's mistake. Once is enough I think.

 

i agree mate,dragoon was a panacea.in feb 44, 40 lst and lci (the largest types)were transferred from england to the med,for use in dragoon.these ships were supposed to be used in a may overlord.
walter beddel-smith,ikes mate,did not agree with dragoon,nor monty and indeed churchill.
so the allies waited for a month,until enough ships came over from u.s shipyards,and indeed british yards,which put back overlord for june.
those divs in italy,imo should have stayed there.
i did not copy this from hyperwar,my sources are from several books,but mainly churchills books,and professor pogue,a u.s historian.im probably wrong again,but hey,im crazy and apparently i have mental problems,but i will not name that member of this forum,but he knows who he is.so take this as a pinch of salt.cheers.good luck mr swindon..

 

the moving of the thread might have had to do with the opening statment, I have a what if.

Lee, if you are refering to this thread on the invasion of S. France no one has stated you have mental problems.


Personaly I feel that the French Divisions who helped carry out Dragoon, would have liked to help fight for thier own homes. An operation in the Balklands could have been disastrus in that the Russians may well have not enjoyed it. After the war ended another war very nearly started with the SU. Stalin had agreed that all liberated territories would be free to elect thier own government. While it is terrible that the SU did not follow thru with their promises, there was no way of knowing for sure. Italy had been bogged down and was quickly found to not be the "Soft Underbelly of Europe". It was a campaign marked with slow advances and IMO it was the right decision to follow thru with Dragoon because as I stated, the advance into Germany from the west would have slowed greatly without the added supplies from the south

 

Sir S :

~ I must apoligize I have been on cancer meds for the past 3 days so am not truly understanding your postings.

~ Are you setting up a what-if scenario or trying to determine "IF" had we not asked or pulled Allied Divisions from Italy to the north-WEST that it would of aided a faster assault and quicker victory in Italy and up through Tirol into the "butt" of Austria and southern Germany .......... or ?

thank you

Erich

 

If what i understand is that the jist of it all is that Anvil is cancelled so that Allied forces continu up the Italian Peninnsula, then take Austria, swing right to take Hungary, Roumania, then Bulgaria and then finish off with the Balkans before the Soviets can do anything about it, and make sure to Uncle Jo that this gained territory will not be handed over to the Soviets, these countries will be administered by the west.

It could almost mean that all German forces in the west and Norway are pulled eastward to fend off the Soviets and that all of Germany then falls into Western allied influence, and that the western allies refuse to yeild any territory gained, what is the Soviet Union to do.

Could there be unlikely senario that German forces are fighting with the western allies to prevent Soviet expansion into western europe, this is done because the west does not trust the Communist regime of Staln.

v.R

 

Anvil/Dragoon was the best option for a number of reasons, geography, logistics and politics being the big three.
Geography: Once the Allies got north of Rome they still had to fight up the spine of Italy, then across the northern Italian plain (and its rivers) before striking the through the Llubljana gap into southern Austria.
Logistics: The difficulties in keeping the armies involved would be a nightmare. Italy was not an easy place to move men and equipment.
Politics: Imagine telling the French that they were not allowed liberate their own country, the Brits and US would did it for them. De Gaulle would not accept that.
Churchill, being a Victorian man seeped the the classics, seemed to have an unhealthy obession with the Med.
In reality, the Allies should have scaled back the Italian campaign after July 1944, sent the big assets to NW Europe and stepped up efforts to help the Yugoslav and Greek partisans (giving them more supporting air power).

 

i understood churchill disliked dragoon.cheers.

 

Of course Churchill disliked Dragoon (Anvil) as it took Divisions away from the campaign in Italy, As I have written: It was later proved that Dragoon did not need the Divisions from Italy. Churchill knew that Uncle Joe would keep under the Soviets control every country that they so-called "liberated." Churchill knew the only way to keep that from happening was to strike through the under-belly of Europe. The Americans did not understand what Uncle Joe was up to. Had we allowed Alexander to attack with all he had I have no doubt the structure of free verses Soviet controlled states would have been very different in 1950.

De Gaulle had nothing to say about where those few French Division were to fight. In Italy we has the American-Japanese 442nd and a Brazilian Regiment. Both distinguished themselves. How great it would have been to have them push north into Austria! As to Yugoslavia and Greece. This action would have helped rid these of the German Army as well.

There is no doubt in my mind that the face of Europe would have been very different had the US listened to Churchill.

 

What was Brookes opinion on this? My take is by 1943 his ideas counted for far more than Churchills.

Sending a small army off to the Balkans may or may not have saved the Serbs from Communism. Assuming it did what would the effect on carrying the battle into the heart of Germany be?

Sending ten Allied divsions to the Balkans would required a minmmum of 270,000 tons of supply per month to be provided to them. Thats mostly fuel, ammunition and vehical parts. Which they are not likely to find in the environs of Tirane, Macedonia, Skopje, Sofia, or Belgrade. Including supply for air support, transportation and general support units boosts the requirement towards the 350,000 to 400,000 ton per month range. That is all fuel and ammunition that is not going towards capturing the Ruhr or the other industrial cities of Germany.

While the units withdrawn from Italy may not have been needed specifcally for Dragoon they were most certainly needed for breaking the final defense of Germany between the borders and the east side of the Rhine. Removing two entire Allied armys from that effort wont help at all.

It took a entire Red Army Front some ten months to advance across the Rumanian plain, the Hungarian plain and to Vienna. The countryside from the Adriatic coast or Greece to the Danube River valley is rugged, lacks high speed roads, or more usually it lacks paved roads at all. Neither are there adaquate ports for supporting a US Army Group of 1944 nor are there railroads of much use. Dragging those 270,000 tons of supply required each month forward will be a painfull task. And, it will require port equipment and port support battalions, trucks, engineer battalions, ect... that were otherwise used to aid the Allied armys in the battle along Germanys western frontier.

This of course assumes the Yugoslavian Communist army cooperates in any fashion with this Allied army.

I suspect that by the time these ex Dragoons had advanced across the Albanian and Serbian hills they would find the RKKA already in the Danube valley and ahead of them in the battle for the Hungarian plain. Meanwhile Churchill is nonplussed at the inability of the understrength Allied armys in France to make any progress to the Rhine River. In May 1945 the US and Soviet armys shake hands across the Rhine river.

 

Mr Batzel and Schwamberger,

I agree with your opinons, a Balkin expedition was questionable at best.

My personal and I really mean from a family member with his uncle burried in France is:

Thank god my uncle was KIA while serving the 36th ID under Devers and Patch verses Alexander and Clark. Those two "Generals" tried their best to bury him in Italy. They represented the worst leaders the Allies had to offer and put MANY brave soldiers in their graves. If a Balkin Campaign included them well..............

I know my reply offers nothing related to the facts regarding your discussion, but I wouldn't give those two egotistical so and so's a chance to play the game Battleship, in hind sight.

Best Regards,

Steve

 

btw,how many U.S.Divs were sent to E.T.O.after dragoon?,this is a good question.does anyone know?.
i agree with sirswindons point concerning the french troops in italy,afterall,i do not remember the polish gov in exile,demanding that the polish corps in italy should move to france.they already had an armd div,para bde and polish squadrons in the R.A.F.the french did too.
and i also agree with steve concerning alexander and clarke.people would do well to remember that Marshal,wanted alex to command overlord and luckily ike and brooke saw sense,thank god.what a bloody shambles overlord may have been otherwise.cheers.

 

Hello Lee. Forgive me but I'm a little confused. Are you asking for the OoB for the invasion or what units were sent to Europe in general between say Sept 44 and the end of the war? If it's the latter give me a few days to track it down. Also, from the US, or from Britian, or both?


Something interesting I read from http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1772.html