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Fastest WW2 Fighter plane


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#1 broke91hatch

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 10:41 PM

Trying to find a list, but Im coming up short. Any links?

#2 Erich

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 10:44 PM

which side of the conflict ? Me 163 Komet, Me 262 then down it goes for the LW

operational or test craft for each side ?

#3 broke91hatch

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 10:45 PM

Looking for operational, and piston engine. Sorry about that.

#4 Erich

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 10:50 PM

LW : Ta 152H-1

US : and those here can correct me. P-47N, think the P-51H was post war ?

#5 Liberator

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 11:37 PM

The Hawker Sea Fury was a British fighter aircraft developed for the Royal Navy by Hawker during the Second World War. The last propeller-driven fighter to serve the Royal Navy, it was also one of the fastest production single piston-engined aircraft ever built, and the last ever propeller-driven fighter to shoot down a jet-powered fighter
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#6 SMLE shooter

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 06:31 PM

The german ME 262 was the fastest plane , a jet ,top speed somewhere around 500mph. :eek:

#7 redcoat

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 06:53 PM

LW : Ta 152H-1

US : and those here can correct me. P-47N, think the P-51H was post war ?


The P-51H became operational before the end of the war, but it was too late to see combat.

The fastest pistoned engined aircraft to see combat was the Ta 152H-1 at 474 mph (with boost), next was the P-47M with a top speed of 470 mph (with boost)

Other noteable top speeds in piston engined aircraft to see combat are;

P-47N = 460mph
Spitfire Mk 21 = 450 mph
Spitfire Mk XIV = 446 mph
Bf 109K-4 = 440mph

note, all these speeds are for high altitude flight

Edited by redcoat, 15 November 2008 - 07:55 PM.

if in doubt....Panic!!!!

#8 ozjohn39

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 10:31 PM

Not quite WW2 I know, but the DH 'Hornet' could do 472mph at 22,000'

John.
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". - Voltaire.

#9 Erich

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 12:25 AM

I'll be covering the figures on the Ta 152H-0 and H-1 in a future book project, possibly faster crate than what you imagined

#10 AJJ

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 01:03 AM

Hi,

I agree with Erich.

LW : Ta 152H-1

US : and those here can correct me. P-47N, think the P-51H was post war ?


Ta 152H-1 was truly fast crate, even TAS 510 - 516 mph at high altitude 43k ft.

AJJ

#11 uksubs

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 11:16 PM

The Ta 152 was not Fully operational in WW2 , so does it count ? , you could say the same about a lot of allied fighter planes being tested at the end of war , I think it should be on the planes there saw services for six months or more that counts

#12 Erich

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 02:37 AM

ah check your sources out again please uksubs. what was not fully operational was III./JG 301 first flying the Tank suppose to have 35 plus on hand, the number was achieved by only once and spare parts and crashes by pilot familiarization reduced numbers considerably. III. gruppe never had their A-8, A-8/R2 and A-9's, Dora-9's replaced by the longer winged prop job

#13 Za Rodinu

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 03:14 AM

The Ta-152H is known in RC modelling circles as the Motor Glider From Hell :D

If I ever return to the hobby I'll want to build one :)

berryspage

This bird has a wingspan of 12 feet and weighs 15 Kg

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#14 Erich

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 03:17 AM

now that would make a great spy drone wonder what they would think of the craft flying over the mid-east ............ah maybe then for another time

good one ~ M ~

#15 Triple C

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 05:37 AM

What was the definitive production model of the Republican P-47? From what I understand the early models was fast and tough but not too manuoeverable. Did the latter model basically specialized on energy/vertical fighting?

#16 Vanir

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:36 AM

I have claimed figures (Joe Baugher) of 760km/h for Ta-152H (Jumo 213E) at 12500m using GM-1 boost.
740km/h for Ta-152C (DB-603L) at 10000m with MW-50.
730km/h for Fw-190D-12 (Jumo 213F) at 11275m with MW-50.
700km/h for Fw-190D-9 development prototype for the D-15 (re-engined with DB-603AE) clocked at 10000m presumably without boost.
He cites Green and Nawarra, but these are old publications.

For the Me-109K-4 I have a wide variety of figures, the highest likelihoods are (under MW-50 boost) 710-720km/h at around 5500m using the DC and ASC engine, with 720-730km/h at around 6500m using the DB and ASB engine, with around 200PS and a bit of climb rate and acceleration between the two fuel types. Notably these are extreme speeds at medium altitude, I'm not sure anything comes close.

As far as service aircraft go, the Fw-190D-12 and Ta-152H-1 (both R11 all weather types) were both in mass production, although entered into late and considering the industrial, logistical and administrative state of Germany very few were delivered. They did see front line combat service, and these were neither development prototypes nor preproduction series aircraft but fully qualified front line fighters. Had circumstances been different they would positively have been in far greater numbers, whilst the Ta-152C-1 and C-3 would have been delivered (as mass production was entered). So too the Gotha Go-229 jet.

Aircraft like the Fw-190D-14 and D-15 projects are of course a different kettle of fish, being up for speculation as to whether they were even needed in mass production and having never made it there historically (muted by the introduction of the Ta-152H, C and Fw-190D-12/13 anyway).

#17 AJJ

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 02:46 PM

Hi,

Joe Baugher is right in his figures that at 12500m altitude using GM-1 boost, the top TAS speed for Focke-Wulf Ta-152 H-1 (Jumo 213E) with Start und Kampfleistung (Take-off and Combat power) was 760 km/h i.e. 472 mph.

However, Ta-152 H-1 (Jumo 213E) is even more faster using GM-1 boost with Sonder Notleistung (Special Emergency or War Emergency power). The top TAS speed for Focke-Wulf Ta-152 H-1 using GM-1 boost with Sonder Notleistung was at least 820 - 830 km/h i.e. 510 - 516 mph (these speeds were achieved during combat test flights at Stendal base with fully equipped combat take-off weight) and the true top TAS speed was probably near or around TAS 837 - 840 km/h i.e. 520 - 522 mph at 13200m altitude.

Ta-152 H-1's (Jumo 213E) GM-1 boost kicks in at 11500m and it gives either +350 PS (metric HP), i.e. +345 HP (Imperial) for 20-25 minutes or +520 PS, i.e. +513 HP for 10-15 minutes with Sonder Notleistung or Start und Notleistung (Take-off and Emergency power).

At least some of these figures can be verified from Focke-Wulf's original tables too and for sure by calculating values from Focke-Wulf's tables.

Anyway, no matter what, the Focke-Wulf Ta-152 H-1 (Jumo 213E) was by far the fastest operational piston fighter to emerge during the WWII.

Erich is right, Ta-152 H-1s were fully operational with JG 301. I'm sure that Erich knows the operational history of Ta-152s the best.

Hope this helps a bit.

AJJ

PS The top TAS speed 738km/h for Fw-190D-12 (Jumo 213F) at 11600m with MW-50 is correct and with GM-1 boost the top TAS speed is around 770 - 780 km/h.

Dora-9s top TAS speed was more than 700 km/h - 4-5 different operational Fw D-9 versions, e.g. C3 Einspritzung version (2130 PS i.e. 2100 HP with Jumo 213A-1) TAS 716 km/h at 5500m.

Edited by AJJ, 17 November 2008 - 02:52 PM.


#18 uksubs

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:00 PM

ah check your sources out again please uksubs. what was not fully operational was III./JG 301 first flying the Tank suppose to have 35 plus on hand, the number was achieved by only once and spare parts and crashes by pilot familiarization reduced numbers considerably. III. gruppe never had their A-8, A-8/R2 and A-9's, Dora-9's replaced by the longer winged prop job


Thanks for the intell Eric as it was news to me , I've only read Dietmar Harmann book on the Ta 152 & that said hardly anything about them being operational

#19 Vanir

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 04:35 AM

Thanks for the extra info, AJJ. Do you have links or references I can get my hands on these tables with? I've run into trouble relating heresay before, though I do not doubt the voracity of what you've written in the slightest.

#20 AJJ

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:27 AM

Hi Vanir,


Where to get the info and tables:


Peter Rodeike’s book Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug Fw 190 A Fw 190 'Dora' Ta 152 H published by Prien has been the Focke-Wulf “bible” for years and it still is in many ways. Not translated in English.


Ta 152:


Thomas H. Hitchcock’s book TheFocke-Wulf Ta 152 published by Eagle Editions maybe the best book? on Ta 152 at the moment. I don’t have this book, so I don’t know how it compares with Dietmar Harmann’s book Focke-Wulf Ta 152.


Dietmar Harmann’s book Focke-Wulf Ta 152 published by Schiffer is certainly a good book on Ta 152 and it includes some tables.


Dora 9:


Dietmar Harmann’s book Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Long Nose An Illustrated History of the Fw 190 D Series, published also by Schiffer, is very good and includes some tables too.


Jerry and Judy Crandall’s The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora Vol. 1, published by Eagle Editions has got excellent reviews everywhere around the world being “the labor of love” book of Jerry and Judy Crandall. I don’t have this book yet, but I’ll certainly get it for myself this X-mas as a gift. AFAIK, Jerry and Judy Crandall’s future work The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora Vol. 2, will cover all technical details of Dora 9.


As a unit history on Doras, Axel Urbanke’s GREEN HEARTS, First in Combat with the Dora 9, published by Eagle Editions, is already a classic book, highly recommended.


Donald Caldwell’s books on JG 26; The Top Guns of Luftwaffe, The JG 26 War Diary Vol.1 & 2, JG 26 Photographic History of Luftwaffe’s Top Guns, published by Ballantine Books are excellent unit history books, I have at least liked them a lot.


Here you can find some Focke-Wulf original tables for Anton and Dora series Fws:

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm

You should be able get all Focke-Wulf original tables from here:

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showforum=166

Mr. Gene Crumpp is the Focke-Wulf expert. He should have all the technical info on Focke-Wulfs. Mr. Crumpp does the restoration work on Focke-Wulfs and flies them. Mr. Crumpp is both the aeroengineer and the pilot. You can contact Mr. Crumpp from here:

http://www.white1foundation.org/


If the above mentioned sources fail for some reason or the other, I should have all Fw D 9 and Ta 152 tables (I believe so at least, I could be wrong as well). Just need to learn how to link or paste them here.


Hope this helps a bit.


AJJ


PS Some data on Fw 190 D-12 with Jumo 213 E-1 engine:

FW 190 D-12 Leistungsdaten


Motor Jumo 213 E-1
Reichweite km 750
Leistung kW(PS) 1374(1870)
Dienstgipfelhöhe m 12500 (13400)
Startmasse* kg 4400
Höchstgeschwindigkeit km/h 760 (12500 m)
780 (13200 m)
Reisegeschwindigkeit km/h 580 (8800 m
Steiggeschwindigkeit m/s 17,0
Spannweite m 10,50
Flügelfläche m2 18,30
Zuladung kg 1131
Baujahr 1944



#21 Vanir

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 06:03 AM

Tremendously helpful, thanks AJJ!

#22 AJJ

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 03:20 PM

Hi Vanir,

You're welcome. Let me know if you get tables, if you don't get them, I'll try to post them here.

All the best,

AJJ

#23 Thrust

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 06:10 PM

Hi AJJ

However, Ta-152 H-1 (Jumo 213E) is even more faster using GM-1 boost with Sonder Notleistung (Special Emergency or War Emergency power). The top TAS speed for Focke-Wulf Ta-152 H-1 using GM-1 boost with Sonder Notleistung was at least 820 - 830 km/h i.e. 510 - 516 mph (these speeds were achieved during combat test flights at Stendal base with fully equipped combat take-off weight) and the true top TAS speed was probably near or around TAS 837 - 840 km/h i.e. 520 - 522 mph at 13200m altitude.

What's the best source for this figure?

Ta-152 H-1's (Jumo 213E) GM-1 boost kicks in at 11500m and it gives either +350 PS (metric HP), i.e. +345 HP (Imperial) for 20-25 minutes or +520 PS, i.e. +513 HP for 10-15 minutes with Sonder Notleistung or Start und Notleistung (Take-off and Emergency power).

Harmann's book says +133HP @ 11.4km, +271HP @ 12.4km, and +409HP @ 13.4km. Was the GM1 dose the pilot's prerogative?

At least some of these figures can be verified from Focke-Wulf's original tables too and for sure by calculating values from Focke-Wulf's tables.

Where can these tables be found? Is there a book available that has a complete collection, or does one have to go to national archives to find them? So far I've only found two working links to Focke-Wulf tables with Ta 152H data at the LEMB. One badly photographed dated 3.1.45 with everything from the 190A-8 to the D-12, and three Ta 152s. The H-1 is running at 2.03 ata. The other chart is dated 12.1.45, with an A-8, A-9, C-1, and H-1. The H-1 on this chart is running at 1.92 ata.

Do you know what maximum manifold pressure was used in operational Ta 152H-1s?

#24 MVHAGEY

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 12:13 AM

Anybody know any good charts for this?
In war there is no prize for the runner-up.-
General Omar Bradley

#25 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:07 AM

I don't know if I'd count the Ta 152 as "operational." Yes, of the tiny handful that were built most ended up going to operational units but, as the pilots using them said they were more like being operationally test flown. The aircraft was anything but production ready really.
As for prototypes the XP-47J at 504 mph holds the record. The P-72 managed 475 mph and likely as a production plane would have hit 500+. But, it didn't get produced. The DeHavilland Hornet is really more of a postwar aircraft as only a couple of prototypes flew before the war ended. But, it too was one fast aircraft especially for a twin.
Another fast aircraft, again post war, was the XP-82 Twin Mustang. The P-51H hit 470+ as did its prototypes the XP-51F and XP-51G.
Some of the Hawker Fury prototypes were right in that range too at 470 to 480 mph.

What you have to realize is that what the Germans accepted as "operational" was born from desperation while the Allies could take a more reasoned and methodical approach to aircraft development. Most of the Allied prototypes listed above were every bit as fast or faster than a Ta 152 and, they were light-years ahead of it in reliability. That isn't to knock Kurt Tank's abilities or the Ta 152 but a reasoned assessment of late war aircraft development.




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