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Brief Overview of the Campaign


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#1 Piat

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 10:35 PM

Just posting this here because it's a shame the Burma Campaign doesn't get more attention.

But if anyone's new to learning about the campaign here is a good/brief overview from the BBC

BBC - History - The Burma Campaign 1941 - 1945

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History is written by the Victors.


#2 JCFalkenbergIII

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 11:08 PM

Just posting this here because it's a shame the Burma Campaign doesn't get more attention.

But if anyone's new to learning about the campaign here is a good/brief overview from the BBC

BBC - History - The Burma Campaign 1941 - 1945


With the amount of threads created on the CBI it is surprising about the lack of interest. Even one of the members who wanted a forum created for it hasn't posted either here or anywhere else since.:rolleyes:
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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#3 urqh

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:36 PM

There were no tigers, well no tiger tanks, dont know about the other sort. I find if you mention Tigers a lot more youll be inundated with views of these threads Jc.

I missed them hidden here.

Spending time reading them now though.

One of best reads I ever managed was the retreat from Burma by James Lunt who was serving in the Burma rifles. His personal story of the retreat and the personalities involved is a great addition to the histories.

British Army 1939-1945 - World War II Tribute Video

 

 

[URL="http://youtu.be/Zbp_4XBmD4w"]

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 


#4 JCFalkenbergIII

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:25 PM

I remember posting somewhere about the same thing regarding the CBI. There were no "awesome" tanks or "cool" uniforms. No SS. No panzer divisions. No well known or propaganda promoted soldiers and personalities. Especially the German ones.To most of those raise on the European part of the war there is not the same kind of excitement in the CBI.
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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

#5 wtid45

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 11:47 PM

There were no tigers, well no tiger tanks, dont know about the other sort. I find if you mention Tigers a lot more youll be inundated with views of these threads Jc.

I missed them hidden here.

Spending time reading them now though.

One of best reads I ever managed was the retreat from Burma by James Lunt who was serving in the Burma rifles. His personal story of the retreat and the personalities involved is a great addition to the histories.

Bengal tigers maybe;) having seen your mention of Retreat from Burma I thought it was time I got posting on this thread so here are a few suggestions to add to the above.Burma the longest war,Lewis Allen this gives info from both sides as well as his own perspective as he served in Burma as an intelligence officer, touching also on the matters of sex race and class.Imphal sir geoffrey evans & Antony Brett-james both were at the battle so are more than qualified to describe events woven in with others who fought there.To stop a rising sun,Roy Humphreys,this excellent book contains reminiscences from many who fought in india and burma including some from indian airborne which are very intresting a great read.more to follow:)
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#6 wtid45

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 07:19 PM

To add to the above, Echoes of Kohima, by John mcCann who fought in the battle. The War Of The Springing Tigers,In January 1944 an rmy of 40'000 Indian deserters were gathered in Burma for an invasion of their homeland.6,000 of them fought in the ranks of the Japanese army at Imphal and Kohima against their own countrymen. Their goal the independance of India.Will add more as i finish my book sorting.
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#7 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 11:03 PM

With the amount of threads created on the CBI it is surprising about the lack of interest. Even one of the members who wanted a forum created for it hasn't posted either here or anywhere else since.:rolleyes:


While there is a great deal of interesting literature about the CBI theater written from the standpoint of personal experiences, the fact is, not much happened in the CBI that affected the eventual outcome of either the European war or the Pacific war.

There were several issues involving the CBI that potentially could have made the theater strategic, but none of them ever really developed to the point that they were critical to the prosecution of the Allied war effort.

1. The British were deeply concerned about defending India, but weren't particularly anxious about recovering Burma, Malaya, or Singapore. The consequence of this state of affairs was that the British were actively launching spoiling operations against the Japanese, but not serious about recovering lost territory in Burma until the very end of the war. The one serious attempt the Japanese made against India came far to late to have any chance of success though it did through a scare into Slim.

2. The Americans had two hopes for the CBI; the first was to keep a viable supply route open to China, so that the Chinese could be kept supplied (and in the war against Japan), and so potential strategic bombing bases against Japan could be operated. It turned out that the Chinese Nationalists were not motivated to fight the Japanese and were trying to sit out the war so that their real enemy, the Chinese communists, could be successfully engaged once the US had defeated Japan. And the logistical problems associated with operating strategic bombers from Chinese bases proved to be more difficult than those of capturing and supplying Pacific island strategic bombing bases.

The second potential goal of the US in the CBI, that of tying up Japanese troops, so that the Pacific offensives would be aided, proved to be unrealistic in view of British determination to do no more than defend India.

Because of these factors, the CBI turned into a stalemated theater, and only became active after the European war had been essentially decided and the US had all but defeated Japan. Thus there is little historic interest in a theater which decided nothing, although providing tremendously interesting stories of personal courage and sacrifice on the tactical level.

#8 wtid45

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:04 AM

I remember posting somewhere about the same thing regarding the CBI. There were no "awesome" tanks or "cool" uniforms. No SS. No panzer divisions. No well known or propaganda promoted soldiers and personalities. Especially the German ones.To most of those raise on the European part of the war there is not the same kind of excitement in the CBI.

This really hits it on the head but it seems im getting DEJAVU;) yanks beat the Japanese all by themselves aint heard that before have we DA:rolleyes:
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#9 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 05:37 PM

This really hits it on the head but it seems im getting DEJAVU;) yanks beat the Japanese all by themselves aint heard that before have we DA:rolleyes:


If you are hearing that the "Yanks beat the Japanese all by themselves" then you aren't listening very well.

I, for one, in every relevant post on the Pacific War, have emphasized the sterling, and often crucial, contributions of the Australians and New Zealanders to Allied victory in the Pacific.

#10 wtid45

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 07:42 PM

If you are hearing that the "Yanks beat the Japanese all by themselves" then you aren't listening very well.

I, for one, in every relevant post on the Pacific War, have emphasized the sterling, and often crucial, contributions of the Australians and New Zealanders to Allied victory in the Pacific.

FORGOT GREAT BRITAIN AGAIN;)
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#11 wtid45

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 07:48 PM

And India,Africa, S.Africa, Nepal,China, Rhodesia, And this is the CBI thread. I never mentioned the pacific theater but as has already been said you aint really intrested in what the 14th army achieved are you DA;)
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#12 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:39 PM

FORGOT GREAT BRITAIN AGAIN;)


No, I didn't.

Great Britain wasn't very active in the Pacific War until 1945. Japan's Navy and air force had been defeated by then. It's Army was still intact and mostly undefeated. The only real setbacks it had suffered were in the defense of relatively small islands in the Pacific. In addition, Australian and US troops had destroyed Japanese Army troop formations in New Guinea and the Philippines (with the dedicated help of the Filipinos), but that was about it.

The BPF made a minor contribution to the final campaign against Japan in the spring of 1945, but never contributed much of significance because the war ended before Operation Downfall became necessary.

#13 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:50 PM

And India,Africa, S.Africa, Nepal,China, Rhodesia, And this is the CBI thread. I never mentioned the pacific theater but as has already been said you aint really intrested in what the 14th army achieved are you DA;)


From a strategic standpoint, no, because, as I explained, it did not matter to the outcome of either the Pacific War (of which I consider the CBI part) or the European war.

In the CBI, apart from the defense of India, the British did not really accomplish much until the spring of 1945 when it wrested Burma back from an already defeated Japan. By that time, the Japanese Army troops in Burma were logistically cut off from Japan and could not expect reinforcement or resupply and had little or no naval and air support.

This was not because of any deficiency in fighting spirit, Britain had simply made the strategic decision not to do anything more in the CBI than keep the borders of India secure. To pretend that the British made any great contribution to the defeat of Japan in the Pacific War is silly.

#14 wtid45

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:32 PM

I give up you arrogance and insistance on the lack of deeds by the British within the CBI Theater borders on the insulting i just wish we had a VETERAN on the forum who served out there to put you straight. Stay in the What if? thread it suits your way of thinking
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#15 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 10:06 PM

I give up you arrogance and insistance on the lack of deeds by the British within the CBI Theater borders on the insulting i just wish we had a VETERAN on the forum who served out there to put you straight. Stay in the What if? thread it suits your way of thinking


I'm stating facts, not spouting emotionalism based on nationalistic egoism. Sorry if you regard that as arrogance or insulting, but I won't sugar-coat reality simply to coddle your feelings.

If you want to compare factually what the British in the CBI contributed to the defeat of the Japanese, to what was going on in the rest of the Pacific War, be my guest. But, realistically, it didn't amount to much compared to what the Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, and even the Chinese did to defeat the Japanese.

There's no shame in that; the British decided they had other fish to fry, and the defense of India was of the utmost importance to them. The US and their Allies in the Pacific War had other imperatives, and pursued other priorities.

#16 wtid45

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 11:40 AM

Well excuse me for defending my country's efforts, and I require no sugar coating or coddling of my feelings from you.The 14th Army did nothing to help defeat the Japanese Army during ww2 what a load of Bollocks:mad: and what about the supply and communication that some of the islands such as Iwo Jima and Okinawa had at the end of the war they were plentiful wern't they:rolleyes: This thread was set up for people that have an intrest in the CBI theater so why the hell are you bothering to post here if you cannot post any thing other than Britain was only intrested in India, THEN WHY BOTHER:confused:
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#17 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 05:02 PM

Well excuse me for defending my country's efforts, and I require no sugar coating or coddling of my feelings from you.The 14th Army did nothing to help defeat the Japanese Army during ww2 what a load of Bollocks:mad: and what about the supply and communication that some of the islands such as Iwo Jima and Okinawa had at the end of the war they were plentiful wern't they:rolleyes: This thread was set up for people that have an intrest in the CBI theater so why the hell are you bothering to post here if you cannot post any thing other than Britain was only intrested in India, THEN WHY BOTHER:confused:


Because it happens to be true and goes a long way in explaining why the CBI is considered to be an inconsequential theater by serious historians.

If I'm wrong, why don't you post some factual data explaining the 14th. Army's actual contributions to defeating the Japanese Empire? I'm not saying the British in the CBI "did nothing", I'm saying it wasn't material to the outcome of the war.

#18 wtid45

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 06:27 PM

DA I already have posted facts you just choose to ignore them better still see my post on recommended websites within this thread.Or get a copy of the Imperial War museums, War In Burma 1942-1945 by Julian Thompson THEN READ IT, AND STILL TELL ME THAT THE 14TH ARMY DID NOT GIVE A VITAL CONTRIBUTION TO VICTORY IN THE FAR EAST.
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#19 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 08:50 PM

DA I already have posted facts you just choose to ignore them better still see my post on recommended websites within this thread.Or get a copy of the Imperial War museums, War In Burma 1942-1945 by Julian Thompson THEN READ IT, AND STILL TELL ME THAT THE 14TH ARMY DID NOT GIVE A VITAL CONTRIBUTION TO VICTORY IN THE FAR EAST.


Facts? What "facts"? You haven't related a single verifiable fact. All you have asserted is that the British 14th. Army did a lot. No names no places, no battles, no dates. Just vague claims of material accomplishments without any details. Name one battle in the CBI that made a significant difference in the Japanese defeat.

Your websites are useless, I looked at them and they are just anecdotal accounts of personal experiences. Interesting, but on the order of "so what?" I've read the accounts of prisoners of war of the Japanese and frankly I admit they instill in me a fury towards the Japanese I have trouble controlling. But that doesn't change the fact that the British 14th. Army was basically involved in nothing more than the defense of India until well after Japan was essentially defeated.

I've invited you to post data proving me wrong, and you've said you have posted data, but that is not correct. Until you do, I see no reason to keep repeating myself.

#20 wtid45

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 10:38 PM

Your memory must be failing we had this debate back last year in another thread and I stated plenty of facts then. Are you telling me all the troops that the japanese devoted to fighting the 14th army made no differance to the outcome IN THE ISLAND HOPPING CAMPAIGN surely you cant think that britian made no worthy contribuition to the defeat of the japanese in WW2 or can you:rolleyes: I am glad that at last you appreciate the misery the FEPOW went through given your previous tone.
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#21 Falcon Jun

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 07:12 AM

An interesting exchange of views, guys. What you both posted reminded me of this old saying: "They also serve those who sit and wait." :)
That's about it,
Fil

#22 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:41 PM

Your memory must be failing we had this debate back last year in another thread and I stated plenty of facts then. Are you telling me all the troops that the japanese devoted to fighting the 14th army made no differance to the outcome IN THE ISLAND HOPPING CAMPAIGN surely you cant think that britian made no worthy contribuition to the defeat of the japanese in WW2 or can you:rolleyes: I am glad that at last you appreciate the misery the FEPOW went through given your previous tone.


Go back and review that other thread; the issue discussed therein was different than the question in this thread. The facts you stated in the other thread may, or may not, be pertinent to this thread, but you need to restate them in this thread and show how they support your argument.

The assertion you object to in the present thread is that there were no British initiatives in the CBI that materially affected the outcome of World War II. The defense of India, while generally a positive objective of the Allies, did not, in itself, contribute to the defeat of the Japanese. The recapture of Burma, completed in June of 1945, came so late in the war that it had virtually no influence on the Japanese conduct of the war.

The idea that Japanese troops, which might have assisted in the defense of the Japanese perimeter islands in the Pacific, were tied up in the CBI by British attempts to retake Burma, is negated by the fact that far more Allied troops and other military resources were committed to the CBI than the Japanese used to defend their conquests there. The net effect of the defensive stance of Britain in the CBI was to drain far more Allied effort from the Pacific War than it did Japanese.

#23 wtid45

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 11:42 PM

So thats why on August 6th America dropped the first of two atomic bombs because they wanted to avoid the bloodshed of invading the Japanese mainland I suppose you would of done that with no help from us Brits.The 14th army defeated the Japanese in Burma,India, or thier greatest defeat in thier HISTORY LOSING 190,000 KILLED IN BURMA THREE FIFTHS OF THE MEN SENT THERE ,OR THIRTEEN TIMES THE NUMBER OF BRITISH AND COMMENWEALTH DEAD.
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

#24 Devilsadvocate

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:26 PM

So thats why on August 6th America dropped the first of two atomic bombs because they wanted to avoid the bloodshed of invading the Japanese mainland I suppose you would of done that with no help from us Brits.The 14th army defeated the Japanese in Burma,India, or thier greatest defeat in thier HISTORY LOSING 190,000 KILLED IN BURMA THREE FIFTHS OF THE MEN SENT THERE ,OR THIRTEEN TIMES THE NUMBER OF BRITISH AND COMMENWEALTH DEAD.


Nevertheless, The battles along the Indian border in 1944 had no material effect on the outcome of the Pacific War. The Japanese loss of Burma in 1945 came so late in the war that it affected nothing except the post-war stature of the British colonial administration of the area.

It would be nice if you could provide some source information for your casualty numbers. This site, Burma Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia shows total casualties of around 200,000 Japanese to about 71,000 British (no mention of US, Chinese, or Indian casualties). Furthermore, it claims that the last Japanese offensive against Kolima and Imphal produced 55,000 Japanese casualties (13,500 dead) against 17,500 British casualties. So there seems to be some discrepancy in your numbers.

#25 wtid45

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 02:02 PM

DA I already have posted facts you just choose to ignore them better still see my post on recommended websites within this thread.Or get a copy of the Imperial War museums, War In Burma 1942-1945 by Julian Thompson THEN READ IT, AND STILL TELL ME THAT THE 14TH ARMY DID NOT GIVE A VITAL CONTRIBUTION TO VICTORY IN THE FAR EAST.

Figures I quoted came from above book, of course Wiki is right all the time isnt it:rolleyes:
WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .




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