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M1 Thompson, British Sten or Type 100, MP40 or PPSH-41?


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#1 MarineRaider

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 01:41 AM

Here is a question that i have encountered on many websites and it is usually a opinion question. What do you think is the best submachine gun out of all of them?
The American M1 Thompson fires 700 RPM. And it holds 20 .45 bullets in magazine (50 bullets in drum mag)

The British Sten, or as the Japanese called it the Type 100, fires 550 RPM. And can hold 32 rounds in a magazine. (.9 ammo)

The German MP40 fires at 500 RPM and it's magazine holds 30 rounds of .9 ammo Parabellum bullets.

The Russian PPSH-41 fires at 1200 RPM and holds 71 (7.62mmx26mm) rounds in one magazine.

So what is your favorite submachine gun?
Its your choice!
-MarineRaider

Edited by MarineRaider, 17 May 2009 - 03:22 AM.


#2 Wolfy

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 01:53 AM

1. MP40
2. PPSH
3. M1
4. Sten

#3 ozjohn39

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 01:55 AM

I don't think the Sten was in .45 calibre, and I think the reference to ".9" is meant to be 9mm.

Apart from the Thompson, virtually all SMGs were in the 9mm range AFAIK.


John.
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". - Voltaire.

#4 Wolfy

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:07 AM

I believe that the 50 rd drum was not often used for the Thompson due to jamming issues- 20 rd. /30 rd. were more common.

#5 formerjughead

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:19 AM

I don't think the Sten was in .45 calibre, and I think the reference to ".9" is meant to be 9mm.

Apart from the Thompson, virtually all SMGs were in the 9mm range AFAIK.


John.


You seem to forget the M3A1 Grease Gun which was more accurate as well as more reliable then the Thompson; just not as sexy.

If you search Grease Gun on this forum you'll will find the basis for my argument.

Brad

#6 Wolfy

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:31 AM

The PPS-43 is often stated as the best SMG.

#7 SMLE shooter

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:44 AM

Here is a question that i have encountered on many websites and it is usually a opinion question. What do you think is the best submachine gun out of all of them?
The American M1 Thompson fires 700 RPM. And it holds 20 .45 bullets in magazine (50 bullets in drum mag)


The British Sten, or as the Japanese called it the Type 100, fires 550 RPM. And can hold 32 rounds in a magazine. (.45 ammo)

The German MP40 fires at 500 RPM and it's magazine holds 30 rounds of .9 ammo Parabellum bullets.

The Russian PPSH-41 fires at 1200 RPM and holds 71 (.9) rounds in one magazine.

So what is your favorite submachine gun?
Its your choice!
-MarineRaider

The Sten uses 9MM not .45...I would choose the Thompson.

"The British Sten, or as the Japanese called it the Type 100, fires 550 RPM. And can hold 32 rounds in a magazine. (.45 ammo)"


The Sten and the T-100 are two different guns.

Edited by SMLE shooter, 17 May 2009 - 02:52 AM.

"This is the day which the lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalms 118:24

Regards, Christian/SMLE shooter.:D

#8 brndirt1

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:46 AM

The worse of the bunch is the Type 100 from Japan. And it used the Nambu 8mm (not 9mm) contained in a 30 round detachable magazine, firing at a lowly 450 rounds per minute. After 1944 the model fired at a more respectable 800 rpms, but not many were made or deployed in the final year of the war.

The PPsH-41 wasn’t a 9mm, it was a 7.62mmx25mm. Literally the old Mauser pistol round.It fired at a 900 rounds per minute rate, and while it had a 71 round drum available, it was so difficult to reload and failure was common the 35 round curved box magazine was preferred. The box mag. was also easier to reload, and to carry in a pouch.

The MP-40 is a 9mm, not the PPsH. And it fired at 500 rpms with a from a 32 round magazine.

The STEN had many different marks (models), and while they were all 9mm their rate of fire varied. From a high of 600 rpm at the high end (Mk V), to 450 per minute on the low end (Mk II silenced). The magazine could hold 32 rounds, but it was found that it functioned much better if loaded with only 30.

The original Thompson had an outrageous rate of fire, and the US military wouldn’t accept it into service until it was ‘toned down", from over 1000 rpm’s to 700, it could empty its 100 round drum in under 4 seconds without jamming. No small feat. The A1 of WW2 had two sizes of box magazine to chose from, either 20 or 30 rounds per magazine. The two drums (50 and 100 round) were discontinued after the 1928 model and wouldn't even fit into the Thompsons of the Second World War years.

And not to sound too Ameri-centric, out of the whole bunch of available SMGs of WW2 I would pick the M3A1 "Grease gun". Not because it was blazingly fast (only 450 rpms), or beautifully made (ugh), or accurate (not), or held more rounds (30). But it was a dependable "lead pump" which could use both the .45 ACP, and M3A1's could be converted for 9x19mm Luger ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, and installing the magazine adapter to use British STEN magazines. All the conversion stuff was included in the $18.00 price-tag.

It’s retractable stock, made from steel wire, could be used as cleaning rod (when detached), a tool for removing the barrel containment collar, and as a magazine loading tool. The hollow grip of the gun contained a small oilier. It was designed for the magazine to be used as a second handle which was the problem with the MP-40 and STEN designs. If they were held as a grip, the system tended to jam. It remained in service with the US (in tanker duty) until the first Iraqi war. I’m not sure it isn’t still serving in the US armed forces somewhere in the 9mm configuration.

I have heard the the PPsH in the later version was a decent unit, but I am still off put by the small round, I really like the Finnish Somui (sp?) SMG of the time period, but the Danish Madsen is also a rather unique unit.

Edited by brndirt1, 17 May 2009 - 02:54 AM.

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

#9 MarineRaider

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:12 AM

thanks for the comments but i thought that the PPSH-41 fired .9 from a website i looked at.

-MarineRaider

#10 brndirt1

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:17 AM

thanks for the comments but i thought that the PPSH-41 fired .9 from a website i looked at.

-MarineRaider


If you are going to count on websites, prepare to be disappointed occasionally. I have found that this one is pretty reliable however:

Modern Firearms - Suomi submachine gun

Plenty of good data on that stinker.:D
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#11 MarineRaider

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:18 AM

The Sten uses 9MM not .45...I would choose the Thompson.

"The British Sten, or as the Japanese called it the Type 100, fires 550 RPM. And can hold 32 rounds in a magazine. (.45 ammo)"


The Sten and the T-100 are two different guns.


Well i thought they where pretty much the same. They both where used and manufactured pretty much the same way.

-MarineRaider

#12 MarineRaider

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:23 AM

If you are going to count on websites, prepare to be disappointed occasionally. I have found that this one is pretty reliable however:

Modern Firearms - Suomi submachine gun

Plenty of good data on that stinker.:D


THANKS A WHOLE BUNCH!:D
-MarineRaider

#13 brndirt1

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:29 AM

Well i thought they where pretty much the same. They both where used and manufactured pretty much the same way.

-MarineRaider


The Type 100 was developed by Nambu in Japan, and owed nothing to the STEN design. It was an improvement off a German design, just as the STEN was sort-of, but it was developed off the Bergman the Japanese had been importing and supplying their troops with. That Bergman also fired the 7.62 Mauser round (.32 caliber), but when Nambu designed his own he went to the 8mm size.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#14 MarineRaider

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:39 AM

Haha. I just saw the Germany Model on that website you showed me. Where they built pretty much the same? Just not manufactured by the same company?
-MarineRaider

#15 brndirt1

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:53 AM

Haha. I just saw the Germany Model on that website you showed me. Where they built pretty much the same? Just not manufactured by the same company?
-MarineRaider


Which weapons? Are you asking about the Bergman that the Japanese imported? If so it was produced in Switzerland by SIG, and then shipped to Japan. The STEN was a "rough" copy of the MP-38/40 in its action with the positioning of the feed shifted to the side so it could be fired from the prone position with less difficulty. The STEN shared that side feed with the Bergman, but not the action. The STEN was introduced in June, 1941. It was designed by Vernon Sheppherd and Harold John Turpin and developed at ENfield, the government arsenal. Total production of the STEN in various marks, from mid 1941 to late 1945, was 3,750,000. The STEN Submachine Gun was the first example of a new breed of cheap and simple full-auto infantry weapons that came to be adopted by many of the world's armies.

The MP-38/40 were designed by a different group than Bergman, and while some people still use the term "Schmeiser" (sp?) he had nothing to do with the weapon's design. I think the magazine and its bottom feed style was a copy of his design however.

Edited by brndirt1, 17 May 2009 - 03:58 AM.

Happy Trails,
Clint.

#16 formerjughead

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 06:25 AM

.....The MP-38/40 were designed by a different group than Bergman, and while some people still use the term "Schmeiser" (sp?) he had nothing to do with the weapon's design. I think the magazine and its bottom feed style was a copy of his design however.


I believe early examples had Schmeisser(sp?) stamped on the stick magazine..........so he either built them or designed them. In any case when the Allies first ran accross the MP38/40 they saw the name and labled the weapon.

#17 SMLE shooter

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 01:24 PM

Well i thought they where pretty much the same. They both where used and manufactured pretty much the same way.

-MarineRaider

That's okay.:)
"This is the day which the lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalms 118:24

Regards, Christian/SMLE shooter.:D

#18 Triple C

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:07 PM

The Erfurt Machine Factory (ERMA in German) designed and patented the MP-40. Later, Hugo Schmeiser became the factory manager, and the factory went on to build many MP-40s under his watch.

Anyways, the M1 Thompson is highly praised by those who have used them. It was a well-built, accurate and reliable weapon and its only defect was its heft and cost. Some also consider the .45 to lack penetration. The PPSh was a beastly gun but supposedly perfect for Russian weather. The drum is actually the achilles heel of the design as it was sensative to dirt, snow, and prone to jamming if the springs wear out. PPSh-43 was a much better weapon, with its all synthetic furniture and folding stock. STEN was supposedly the most nasty piece of kit ever, but it gets the job done and it was literally cheaper than dirt and could be mass manufactured from a garage. The MP-40 gets the nodd for starting it all.
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#19 Triple C

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:12 PM

Oh, and Japanese guns were terrible. Type 100 has a bayonet lug (Ha!) and the adjustable sight could be zeroed up to 1,500 meters (presumably to stratch the backs of tired allied soldiers). They were built and issued in pathetic numbers, and the "folding stock" of the paratrooper model was badly designed--they basically cut the wooden stock in half and put a lock between them. This was very weak, of course, and easily damaged.
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#20 brndirt1

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 04:14 PM

"TripleC", as to the STEN being a "nasty piece of kit", when talking about the STEN one of the guys it was issued to, said something like; "its most precise components are an old bedspring and a length of plumber’s pipe!"

I posted this next quite a while ago, and it has a link (don't know if it is still 'live') with Jim Varney finding his Dad's stash of an old STEN.

The STEM Sub machinegun had a reputation for occasionally running away on the operator.



I thought that was too funny. The M-3 "Grease-gun" (like inexpensively made STEN) could be produced for less than twenty US dollars. I seem to recall it was between $6 and $12 (USD) for the different Mks of STEN and about $18 for the original M-3, that was pared down to $15 for the M3A1. Toward the end of the Thompson production run, the M1A1 was being delivered for forty-five US dollars with accessories. Down from over two hundred US dollars for the weapon alone in the late 1920’s!

Just for fun, I also found this poem written during WW2 and published in The Maple Leaf Scrapbook, a souvenir book printed in Belgium at cost and given to forces overseas by No. 3 Cdn. P.R. Group, in 1945.

Ode to a STEN GUN
By Gunner. S.N. Teed

You wicked piece of vicious tin!
Call you a gun? Don't make me grin.
You're just a bloated piece of pipe.
You couldn't hit a hunk of tripe.
But when you're with me in the night,
I'll tell you pal, you're just alright!

Each day I wipe you free of dirt.
Your dratted corners tear my shirt.
I cuss at you and call you names,
You're much more trouble than my dames.
But boy, do I love to hear you yammer
When you 're spitting lead in a business manner.

You conceited pile of salvage junk.
I think this prowess talk is bunk.
Yet if I want a wall of lead
Thrown at some Jerry's head
It is to you I raise my hat;
You're a damn good pal...
You silly gat!

The cheap-o STEN, was undoubtly one of the most crude, ugly, simple, but effective sub machineguns of WW2. Even if it did have that little "quirk" of running away in certain circumstances, in some models there were a huge number of them made, I think there were more than 4 million of different versions (Marks) made from 1941 until 1945.
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Happy Trails,
Clint.

#21 SMLE shooter

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 04:15 PM

The Erfurt Machine Factory (ERMA in German) designed and patented the MP-40. Later, Hugo Schmeiser became the factory manager, and the factory went on to build many MP-40s under his watch.

Anyways, the M1 Thompson is highly praised by those who have used them. It was a well-built, accurate and reliable weapon and its only defect was its heft and cost. Some also consider the .45 to lack penetration. The PPSh was a beastly gun but supposedly perfect for Russian weather. The drum is actually the achilles heel of the design as it was sensative to dirt, snow, and prone to jamming if the springs wear out. PPSh-43 was a much better weapon, with its all synthetic furniture and folding stock. STEN was supposedly the most nasty piece of kit ever, but it gets the job done and it was literally cheaper than dirt and could be mass manufactured from a garage. The MP-40 gets the nodd for starting it all.

The .45 does not lack penetration.
"This is the day which the lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalms 118:24

Regards, Christian/SMLE shooter.:D

#22 MarineRaider

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 04:23 PM

Yeah, i agree. I think that the STEN gun is kind of like the Ak-47. They can both get made out of cheap metal and wood. You just can't abuse then sten as bad.

TripleC
The type 100 is a bad weapon, yes. But is was about all they could make and afford rather than the Type 99 LMG and The Type 99 Rifle or "Arisaka". Which Neither of them didn't do that well.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]-MarineRaider
Carlson's Raiders of 2nd Marine Raider Battalion

#23 brndirt1

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 04:30 PM

The .45 does not lack penetration.


Too true, people have made that mistake for years. While the range and penetration of the Thompson is generally denigerated, it did have an exceptional range considering it was a pistol round. However, the accuracy was not that great beyond a 50 meters. The 10 1/2 inch barrel just wasn't up to the task, it was a "lead pump" first and foremost. That said, here is a portion of an interesting report (Philip B. Sharpe review of the M1928A1 Thompson from 1929):

"This .45 automatic pistol cartridge, in the arm designed for it, delivers about 810 foot per seconds velocity. In the 10 1/2-inch barreled Thompson it delivers about 925 f.p.s. Tests indicate that accuracy and penetration is quite respectable, even at the longer ranges. A single shot two feet from the muzzle, using the 230 grain bullet, tested on 3/4-inch yellow pine boards spaced one inch apart, ran through 6 3/4 boards. At 100 yards it would plough (sic) through six boards; at 200 yards through 5 1/4; at 300 yards, 4 1/2; at the 400 mark through four boards, and at 500 yards it could still stumble through 3 3/4 boards¾sufficient to cause very unpleasant sensations in the body of a recipient." [Page 1107]

It could "reach out there" more distance than I would have assumed, but I have NO idea where one would have to aim to get the bullet to that distance! 500 yards! My word that must have been aimed at the sky to get to that spot. The M1928A1 did have a sliding scale rear sight that was calibrated out to 500 yards, but the M1A1 didn't have the same rear sight, even though the bullet and the barrel remained identical.
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#24 lwd

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 06:13 PM

... I have NO idea where one would have to aim to get the bullet to that distance! 500 yards! ....

At 925 ft/sec it would take something over 1.5 sec to reach 500 yards. It would be expected to drop about 36 feet in that time. Actually plugging the 925 into the equation yields 42 feet so a bit more than that once you account for loss of velocity. If I haven't messed up my calculations that's about 1.6 degrees.

#25 paratrooper506

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 10:39 PM

it,s not rocket science but it works the type 100 was a wierd smg for the simple fact that well it sucks and who says the japanese had a folding stock paratrooper model the japanese did,nt even have paratroopers or even the planes to carry them now take the grease gun for example the stock could be pushed in making it easier to hold against your chest and land with it was slow but extremely reliable the sten was a good weapon but it had its disadvantages such as it easily jammed and somebody mentioned the pps-43 now that was a good gun just a simplified model of the more famous ppsh-41 which fired a weak round but at amazingly high rate of fire the thompson was even better with a .45acp round at 700rpm it was extremely deadly at close range and had great penetration but even simlified models were hard to make the mp-38/mp-40 were first used by the german paratroopers or better known as the fallschirmjager now here are a few more the mp-28s magazines were actually able to be switched between the mp-28 and the sten the bergman mp-18 was known to use drum mags and a special piece that clipped on to the magazine chamber to hold drum mags in the gun so they did,nt fall out of the gun but the mp-28s magazine only held 20 rounds at the most .




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