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Index to General Orders?

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#26 LRusso216

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 03:36 PM

J If I scan some of these pages, where should I post them? do they go in a thread of their own or within some subject already existing?

By all means, post them right here. I've been following this thread, and I'm curious to see what you have. Scan them, then attach them to a post. I'm looking forward to them.

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#27 Pen

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 03:53 PM

By all means, post them right here. I've been following this thread, and I'm curious to see what you have. Scan them, then attach them to a post. I'm looking forward to them.


Thanks, Lou. I'll do that. It may be tomorrow or Sunday before I can get this accomplished (I really hate being only SEMI retired - it so infringes on more interesting pursuits. :grumble:). Barring any instructions from other mods, etc., that contradict your request for where to place them - I will get pages from both these servicemen's IDPFs scanned and posted in this thread. I think anyone who hasn't had reason to request one of these, or simply hasn't yet done it, will find them interesting to read.

Some of the pages are a little blurry (as if they were #3 or #4 of multiple copies made with carbon paper on a typewriter), but most are quite clear and should scan very well.

Regards,
Penny

Edited by Pen, 28 August 2009 - 03:54 PM.
typos


#28 Slipdigit

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 05:36 PM

Lou knows the drill. By all means post anything you wish to post.

Sounds like you have lot of documents there.

I looked up[ La Neuveville in Google maps. It was about 20 miles SW of Luneville. There were also a lot of hits on tourist bureaus for the little town. I'll bet you could get information as to the approximate location of where Denny was killed.

It would not be uncommon for Bud to have died in the manner he was killed. Tank commanders spent a lot of time with their head and upper torso sticking out of the hatch of the tank, as visibility was poor.

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#29 Pen

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 07:22 PM

I sure hope I can do this correctly. First time for everything, right? Obviously this isn't the entire IDPF I received, but the other pages were various forms that duplicated information found on the ones I enclosed and such things as a copy of Dennis' father's death certificate (almost unreadable), etc.

I couldn't get the scanned images small enough without making them unreadable; hence, the pdf format. I tried to include everything I thought would be of interest to those who aren't members of Sgt. Hayes family. Perhaps this will give others at least some idea of the type documents in an IDPF.

Attached Files


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#30 Pen

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 08:46 PM

Lou knows the drill. By all means post anything you wish to post.

Sounds like you have lot of documents there.

I looked up[ La Neuveville in Google maps. It was about 20 miles SW of Luneville. There were also a lot of hits on tourist bureaus for the little town. I'll bet you could get information as to the approximate location of where Denny was killed.

It would not be uncommon for Bud to have died in the manner he was killed. Tank commanders spent a lot of time with their head and upper torso sticking out of the hatch of the tank, as visibility was poor.


Thanks for looking La Neuveville up for me, Jeff.

Finally, today, I got to read through the files slowly. I discovered that Bud's place of death is listed as "Ayl, Germany". The most I'd ever known was found in a small history about that unit. Here's an excerpt from that history of Baker Co., 778th TB, written by one of the men who was there, Arthur Wood (emphasis on Bud's name is mine, of course). I like Mr. Wood's writing style, don't you?:

" We got orders to pull out and join the 94th at Sierck where they were assembling a large force to crack the 11th Panzers. So on the morning of the 16th of February we packed and got ready to take off. At 1400 the column moved and arrived at our destination in Montenack just south of Sierck at 1700. The tanks moved into position that night and jumped off in the morning with the 301st Regiment at 0650. They went clear through to Munzigen and Faha before pulling up. Old Dong returned to us after a short sojourn in the hospital and brought Toler and Bland with him. Then the mad dogs of war began to run amok, Baker was hit again and again. Foul blows that sapped the life-line that had held us together all through the campaign began to leave serious gaps in our ranks that could not be restored. They hit us a stunning blow at Freudenburg as a sniper got Lt. Foy and then we lost Bashford, Swede Hanson and Bob Akins in a short space of time. Across the Saar River to Serrig where we lost Lt. Grubbs, Chance and Willie T. in succession. Old Silver left us about this time to go back home, God’s country and the only free place left in the entire world. Blight, Armond, D’Alessandro and Mates were given a pat on the back and upped a step. Those were the days of Serrig, you remember, don’t you? Lashing out like a dinosaur frothing at the mouth, they struck down Duarte, Seegers and then Bud Hayes also sending Lt. Arnold, Frazier Beavers, Frank DeCoursey, and Bill Presley along to the men in white. Padrnos came back to us and Lt. Allen became one of the family. A hurry-up call came from Pellingen, some SS fanatics had holed up and were giving the boys on the river road some trouble and old reliable Baker was thrown in to plug up the hole, Reeling, bobbing, and staggering under the pounding at Serrig and Zerf we once more hit the Jerries a decisive blow driving them out of Pellingen and giving the doughs from the 376th a chance to dig and make it uncomfortable for Jerry. But what a toll to pay. When the smoke of battle had cleared, 13 of the gang had gone down before the terrific and fanatical onslaught of those maniacs. Lt. Allen and Cooper were missing, Bridges and Carl Parker had been unmercifully shot down when their tank had been hit. Ray Boone, Holt, Sieg, Clyde Harrison. Mates, George Woods, Jesse Sherard, Stern, and Rossi had been wounded and evacuated to the hospital. Rossi returned the following day and then we lost Beladino and Beaton to the boys in white."

The whole of it can be found here:

http://www.11tharmoreddivision.com/history/baker_company_778.htm

Edited by Pen, 30 August 2009 - 08:53 PM.

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#31 LRusso216

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 08:50 PM

Penny, these are very powerful documents. Thank you for sharing them. I can only imagine the pain and grief felt by those receiving these telegrams. Despite the circumstances, it seems as though the Army tried to be as sensitive as it could be.

Thanks again.

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#32 Pen

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:47 PM

Penny, these are very powerful documents. Thank you for sharing them. I can only imagine the pain and grief felt by those receiving these telegrams. Despite the circumstances, it seems as though the Army tried to be as sensitive as it could be.

Thanks again.


You're most welcome, Lou. It's wonderful to talk to others who are interested in this, too.

I agree. Reading the back and forth letters in these IDPFs, I had the same feeling: that our military did try to be sensitive & thoughtful to bereaved families.

I was struck by what a stressful duty the graves registration (?) people of the QMs had in dealing with it all. It must have been sort of overwhelming from start to finish, when you think about it. All those letters to be answered from greaving widows and mothers asking questions about "their boy". Oh my. It's certainly a job I would hate having to do; and I commend those who did it and managed somehow to be thoughtful and graceful in their answers.

They are very powerful documents. The pain they represent is almost palpable, even just reading the copies.

On another note:
If anyone has a chance, I wish they would read that history of Company B (link in my previous post). I'm having the dickens of a time finding the places Mr. Wood mentions in it. Perhaps he has misspelled some place names? I can find Cherbourg and Metz, but none of the places he mentions in between. I did find Serrig, Germany ... and Ayl - which are the places where Bud's death is mentioned. Turns out they're only about 10 minutes apart.

Any help on that?

Thanks all,
Penny

p.s. Thanks for the salute, Lou.

#33 LRusso216

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:00 PM

Penny, here's a link to google maps that show the road from Munzingen to Freudenberg. I'm sure it's not the route Bud took, but it gives you an idea of where the unit was. Serrig is a little to the NE of Freudenburg.
http://maps.google.c...&resnum=1<br />

Edited by LRusso216, 30 August 2009 - 10:08 PM.

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#34 Slipdigit

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:08 PM

Penny,

Much to say, short moment to say it. Read through everything. Graves Registration people really did seem to care, even in their official duties.

I noted he had a fractured L tibia and fibula. Makes we wonder about his cause of death. Was it a vehicle wreck, artillery or did have a fall? I hope one day you can find that out.

His personal effects- Expert Combat Infantryman Badge (CIB). He probably valued that greatly, he certainly walked through hell to earn it.

I'm out of Salutes, gave you ding on the scales (upper right of posts). It is worth more points from me anyway.

Best Regards,  
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#35 Pen

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:41 PM

Lou, thanks very much for that link! I'll make a print-screen copy of that and add it to my files. It will be a nice help in sort of marking locations.

Jeff, I wondered about that fractured leg, too. However, the "official"? ... cause of death is listed as "gunshot wound (G.S.W.) chest" ... I think it's on the first form of that pdf file. So, I don't know what happened to break his tib-fib ... maybe he was hit more than once? Maybe he fell down an embankment or something when he was shot? I doubt I'll ever find out for sure about that.

Anyhooooo ... thanks for the ding! Yer a hunny! ;)

I'll dig around through Bud's IDPF and see if there are any forms or such that are essentially different from Denny's. If so, I'll post them.

A great deal of Bud's file involves the decision/naming of next-of-kin. That must have stressed the whole family pretty badly at the time; but I think none of that would be of any interest to anybody outside our family.

The military certainly did not take anything for granted in handling any of it. If the soldier's widow (#1 next of kin) had remarried, it had to be either stated officially by her or a marriage certificate showing her latest marriage had to be provided. If no widow and no children over age 21, and dad (who was next in line) was deceased, the family had to provide his death certificate. There was a tremendous amount of paperwork involved in getting these questions answered satisfactorily ... just so the soldier's personal effects could be shipped home and, later, decisions about his burial made.

I never thought about how much was involved until I read these IDPFs. Right down to the Nth detail: one letter was sent to Uncle Prent and Aunt Bessie asking about whether or not to send Denny's billfold and a money order made out to Uncle Prent that was in it. Both were blood-stained and the military was desirous of knowing if it would distress the family if they included these items with his other effects; but they were also disinclined to withhold those items without the family's consent. This was followed by a letter from Aunt Bessie saying they wanted everything he had, including the blood-stained items. Letters requesting death certificates of the fathers (both these boys' dads died before their final burial within the U.S.), etc. It must have just been a tough time all the way around.

It's all terrifically moving to read.

p.s. Interesting side note (to me, anyway): Bud was temporarily buried at the military cemetery at Hamm, Luxembourg, Germany before being reburied here in Texas in 1948. That's where General Patton rests, too. What an amazingly beautiful place it is today. Can you imagine visiting that in person? The pictures alone are enough to bring one to tears, so I would think being there in person would be an even more emotional thing. Incredible.

Edited by Pen, 30 August 2009 - 10:58 PM.


#36 Steve R

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 10:55 PM

I happened upon this incredible thread when I searched for Morning Reports for the 44th ID. The quality of your exchanges compelled me to do something I don't do often- register for another web service.

I have been researching my Dad's WWII history for about 2 years now. I have a few photographs and a few documents but very little specific information. I've read around a dozen books and toured the trail of the 44th's Command Posts and major battles in France, spanning Lorraine from Luneville (Forest de Parroy) to Bliesbruck along the German border.

I've just returned from a 4 day trip to Lorraine France to attend a series of ceremonies organized by the French in the Luneville district to honor the Americans who liberated their region 65 years ago this month. There were about 20 American vets, French and American Honor Guards, General Officers from both countries, a squadron of US Cavalry and townspeople turning out everywhere we went. It was incredibly heartfelt by the French and almost overwhelming to us Americans.

One thing I can contribute right away is that the French have a strong tradition of collecting facts from the war. To illustrate, when we went out to Leintrey (on the edge of Parroy), just east of Luneville, to dedicate a site to Capt. Patch, son of 7th Army commander Alexander Patch, the event organizer announced that after extensive research of reports and witness interviews, they had finally determined the exact location and circumstances of Capt Patch's tragic death. In another town a research committee had spent several years developing the precise details of crash of a B-24 to the east of the town.

It is therefore possible that a local historical committee in the vicinity of the Denny & Bud's demises will have even more detail, although there is no certainty of it.

There is a French Lorraine Battlefield Memorial Commission, which is headed by Mr. Gerard Bazin who may be of assistance in locating records or witnesses in southern Lorraine.

The Epinal Battlefield Cemetery is currently managed by Mr. Tom Cavaness.

I have some contact information for these folks if you can use it.

The postings in this thread are invaluable for my research. I'll be happy to try to answer any questions, supply documents, pictures or findings as the group might request.

Steve
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#37 Slipdigit

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 02:50 AM

Welcome Tom, glad you have joined and are willing to work with Penny.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#38 applevalleyjoe

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 06:59 PM

I happened upon this incredible thread......Steve



I echo SteveR's comments...this has been an incredible thread and great learning experience :clap: Pen's search for information, the numerous leads and links (many which were new to me) provided by Forum members in response to her queries, her follow-up actions and then the posting of the results of these numerous actions...all have served as a "how to" tutorial for those of us new to this type of research.

I salute all of you: pen, slipdigit, steveR, LRusso216, kerrd5, snowfrog61 and Baker324 :salute:

#39 Baker324

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 02:55 AM

I happened back on this thread and took a look at the IDPF report. I can tell you from my own uncle's IDPF, that they usually included the Nord De Guerre map coordinate for the vicinity of death. In this case it is Q-203-011 which translates to grid WQ203011. From the B Company history that I have, it shows that Baker Company was in the same area on Oct 22-23, 1944.

I found a great site to translate these map coordinates into Long/Lat. I usually put them into Google Earth, but the site has a Map quest link. The site is The "Coordinates Translator" Again, the European campaign used the Nord De Guerre map for France, Belgium and Germany. I hope this helps.

Also, as an ironic coincidence my uncle also died of a GSW of the chest and was also hit in the leg. His wound disarticulated the fibula. Accounts about my uncle saw him running under heavy MG42 fire. My uncle's wounds were both on the right side. Just thought I would share the coincidence and map information.

Baker 324


I sure hope I can do this correctly. First time for everything, right? Obviously this isn't the entire IDPF I received, but the other pages were various forms that duplicated information found on the ones I enclosed and such things as a copy of Dennis' father's death certificate (almost unreadable), etc.

I couldn't get the scanned images small enough without making them unreadable; hence, the pdf format. I tried to include everything I thought would be of interest to those who aren't members of Sgt. Hayes family. Perhaps this will give others at least some idea of the type documents in an IDPF.


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#40 rogish

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 03:15 PM

It's unfortunate I didn't find this thread 4 weeks ago. It seems as though I could have saved myself A LOT of time! I started an exhaustive search after Thanksgiving for details related to Edward Carl Goldner Jr (my Step-Fathers Uncle), who was killed on 7 Nov 1944 as a member of Company B, 324th Infantry Regiment, 44th Infantry Division. I've already sent for an IDPF, as well as the Rosters and Morning Reports for the months surrounding his death (pending receipt).

Here are the facts as I know them:

Edward Carl Goldner Jr.
US Army, Corporal
Serial Number - 36579778
Date of Birth - 1 Jan 1924, Detroit
Killed - 7 Nov 1944, France
Unit - Company B, 324th Infantry Regiment, 44th Infantry Division
Home of Record – Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan
Buried - White Chapel Cemetery, Troy, MI 14 Aug 1948

Websites that have been helpful in providing information, or helping to 'paint' the picture:

44th Infantry Division (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
44th Infantry Division - United States
WELCOME TO THE 44th DIVISION/71st,114th,324th REGIMENT SITE
44th Infantry Division 324th Infantry Regiment (324th Company D Tribute)
Obtaining Unit Records: Army
American Battle Monuments Commission
Lloyd Nelson Boren

I've attached Edward's photo, as well as a text file (zipped) with the 425 members of the 324th that were killed during WWII. The list includes name, rank, company, date of death, home of record.

Steve
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Attached Files



#41 Sylvestersboy

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 02:24 AM

Everyone,

I am so glad I became a member of this website, as everyone is so very helpful. This thread has opened up many avenues to me in search of my Uncle who was also KIA in the European theater. Thank you so much. 5 solutes to each of you...

#42 Baker324

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 05:50 PM

Lloyd Nelson Boren

I've attached Edward's photo, as well as a text file (zipped) with the 425 members of the 324th that were killed during WWII. The list includes name, rank, company, date of death, home of record.

Steve
[/QUOTE]

I knew that I had seen Sgt. Boren's name somewhere before. He is mentioned in the B Company History, reference date November 11.

As written:

"We pulled out of our position at 1700 and pulled back into reserve about 1 mile behind the front.

Before we could get out safely, however, a barrage came in and a shell made a direct hit on the hole where Sgt. Boren's mortar was, and Sgt. Boren was killed and members of his squad were wounded."


Baker324

#43 Margorita

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 09:50 PM

By the way, I was told on the phone yesterday that the VFW in Monahans (county seat for Denny's home county) has a picture of Denny on the wall down there. Do you suppose it's worth my time to contact them and see what info they might have on him? It's only about a two hour drive from me. If I can track down a real live human associated with that VFW post, I could even make an appointment and go see them.

Penny,

If you need information in Monahans, they have an outstanding Archives for Ward County. If you e-mail them
wardcountyarchives@monahans.org
Donnita will be happy, no make that delighted to assist you.
I'll be she would even contact the VFW for you and get them to drop by the picture and scan and send it to you.

Tell her Lisa Watson asked her to do it for you.

#44 Pen

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 04:14 PM

My sincere thanks for this post, Margorita. And my apologies for being so long checking in. Life has some strange twists and I've been sidetracked from my research for many months. But, despite my tardiness, I do want you and others who have been interested the 324th's vets to know I appreciate you!

Best regards,
Penny

#45 Buten42

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 06:34 PM

This has been one of the most information packed threads I've seen. Too many people here to salute but thanks to you all, I do believe it should be a sticky. It would be nice to go to one place to find all the addresses and web links that this thread provides. Good luck on your quest Pen.
Dave

#46 macrusk

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 03:32 AM

I can't make a sticky, but if you check here http://www.ww2f.com/...-history-5.html you will find a post from today in which I copied the links from this thread. If doing research you may also find other research links that may assist you there.
Regards, Michelle

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#47 lencoo12

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:28 AM

Thanks, JW! That's very interesting and also very useful for a noob to learn.

It occurs to me that there should be something (I doubt it exists, but it would be nice if it did) somewhere on these forums or on the internet; it could be titled "The Military for Dummies". :D Then people like me could go look stuff up in it. Since there doesn't seem to be such a reference, I hope you'll take a grateful salute on behalf of me and all the rest who may venture here and need to know such things.

You're a good egg and patient beyond the call, sir.

Penny


The regiment encountered heavy artillery fire in those early days. There were 39 men from the regiment killed in October, and unfortunately it appears that Dennis Hayes was the first.

#48 gunbunnyb/3/75FA

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 09:51 AM

just a side note maam,when the dog tag was removed from the body and nailed to the grave marker, it had a notch at one side and the hole for the chain of course was at the other.

Edited by gunbunnyb/3/75FA, 05 September 2011 - 09:58 AM.


#49 Biak

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

I just finished reading through the posts and think this is one of the better threads explaining the How To's. Probably why it's a stickey :) anyhoo, thought it needed a bump.

Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.

 

Mark Twain


#50 JDement

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 07:34 PM

Just stumbled across this thread while doing some research of my own.  One thing I noted was, while perusing the Graves Registration Field Manual, is that the coordinates on the Report of Burial are the geographical location of the cemetary, rather than the location of death.  I really wish cause of death on the IDPF I received was a more clear.  It states "M.W. Body".  I am assuming multiple wounds - body, but haven't been able to find anything to verify this.






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