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Axis had taken N.Africa before US entered the WAR?


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#1 Maverik

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:45 PM

That is Egypt, Suez and al the way over to Algeria?

Would it have prolonged the war?
Could it have been of strategic importance to the Axis and contribute to a an Axis victory?
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The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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#2 TheRedBaron

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:57 PM

Why bother? Why not take Gibralter and seal off the Med?

Leave N. Africa to the Italians and do what the Fuhrer wants and head east!

Dont think it would have made much difference to the wars outcome but it may have made life difficult for the Brits. It may have been of use if hitler had decided to head into the middle east and 'liberate' some countries but I dunno if they knew about all the oil then...


BTW Maverik, just based your Jager Officer...
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#3 Maverik

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 04:01 PM

I thought Gibralter was difficult to take and hold, especially with the RN being so 'big and invincible'.

Would denying access to Suez have been of signicant impact to British supplies from and to the middle east. Would it not have opened up another front on Russia. Troops bogged down in North Africa would have been freed up.

Once it was taken leave it to the Italians to hold send Rommel and the AK to the Crimea?!
A good plan violently executed today is better than a perfect plan executed tomorrow.
Patton

The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
David Friedman

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

#4 TheRedBaron

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 04:13 PM

Gimme some FJ and I could take Gibralter!

As long as the Spanish dont mind me using their airfields... :rolleyes:

At least the loss of Suez would have sent all GB shipping round the cape. With Germany in position in the near east then India would be in a rather precairious position with the JAps coming from the East...

Rommel in the Crimea? Interesting... But what about the Turks?
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

#5 Maverik

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 04:20 PM

Forget Gibralter a waste of good men - Crete?!

The Suez would have been a disaster not just strategically but politically, fall of Cairo! British 8th Army Crushed, Middle east falls to Axis powers, it would have been a right kick in the teeth. Plus free up troops and equipment.

No need to loose so much equipment crossing the med. Keep it in Europe for the east.

What about the Turks! They were neutral weren't they promise them to keep All Persia and they would have been sweet as a nut!
A good plan violently executed today is better than a perfect plan executed tomorrow.
Patton

The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
David Friedman

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

#6 drache

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 04:26 PM

It certainly would have allowed for the redirection of resources - perhaps prolonging the war. One of Britian's primary source of oil was from the Middle East - closing the canal would have made imports difficult. It would have definately isolated palistine - I think the British situation would have deteriorated quickly. On another note - if the Germans "liberated" Afrian countries and Egypt, Palestine, Iraq, etc. from the British - they may have found some allies and a few Muslim Waffen SS Divisions. Instead, however, the Gestapo and the SS most likely would have pursecuted Muslims - I guess the Germans could have found friends against the Allies eveywhere - ukranians, cossacks, georgians to name a few - if they were smart enough to really exploit the cultural divisions in countries they invaded. Of course, that's if they were smart. smile.gif
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#7 Friedrich

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 05:22 PM

Without Spanish co-operation —and due to Franco's lack of stupidity, such thing was not possible— taking Gibraltar becomes almost impossible. Taking Spain by force? Means over-stretching the over-stretched German forces and another savage partisan campaign…

The key is Malta, because if seized by the Axis, Suez and Gibraltar lose their value, since you cut the connexion between the two. And of course, it allows the Axis to deploy unopposed forces and drive the British out of Egypt, though I still doubt Rommel could have effectively destroy the entire VIII Army.

Then what? Seizing Sirya and Palestine? It means even more troops, even more resources and even more logistics problems… what about the Soviet meat-grinder? Could Germany afford to deploy even more troops in the Mediterranean to occupy and be able to defend: southern France, Italy, Malta, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Palestine, the Greek Isles, Greece and Yugoslavia? I don't think so.

Without Turkey and Spain in the war, such things can't be done. And of course, complete and effective Italian co-operation was needed. But neither Italy had the power to neither its people the will to accomplish that.

Of course, that's if they were smart.

Exactly.

But History taught us that they weren't… :rolleyes:
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#8 TheRedBaron

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 05:45 PM

Forget Gibralter a waste of good men - Crete?!

Whats that mean? Crete wasnt a waste... Polesti oilfield? Anyway Crete should have been a stunning victory for thr British...

a few Muslim Waffen SS Divisions. Instead, however, the Gestapo and the SS most likely would have pursecuted Muslims

they did have Muslim Waffen SS Divisions.. HAndschar... And they were crap!

I agree with Freddy, and we went over this in the MAlta thread, Malta is the key to breaking the link... Now that could have been taken by my FJ...
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

#9 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 06:23 PM

It wouldn't have made any major difference. The British were already planning for the worst if it happened. Massawa in Ertria was being developed into a major port if Alexandria fell. The oil fields in southern Saudi Arabia and the Gulf were safe unless Germany could develop sea power in the area (almost impossible).
The British also were unlikely to discontinue their opposition regardless of how far they were pushed back. This means the Germans would still have to put a fairly large force in the area just to hold it. On this, it means that the effect on other fronts is the same.

#10 drache

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:08 PM

they did have Muslim Waffen SS Divisions.. HAndschar... And they were crap!

Sorry about that Red, you're right - sure they had muslims - european muslims. I meant muslims from the middle east - certainly there could have been more of them in the WSS. redface.gif Any accounts on how crappy they were?

[ 03. August 2004, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: drache ]
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#11 TheRedBaron

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:24 PM

Oh yes...


Do ya want a book or web sites Drache?

RED
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#12 drache

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:29 PM

Web site would be cool
- thanks Red. smile.gif
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#13 TheRedBaron

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:46 PM

Try these on the only SS division to mutiny...


HAndschar

Handschar again but beware, a bit too anti-muslim...

The sites about this division are all a bit dodgy. Some wish to make them seem better than they were, cos they were SS, and others are very anti-muslim and credit them with atrocities that occured before the unit was formed.

The first one gives a good overview of the unit. The second one I just included to show you the difference in sites on a controversial subject.
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

#14 drache

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:55 PM

Either way - it seems that the Handschar was not completely reliable - at least not what Himmeler hoped to create - and in that sense, a failure with a few achievements. thanks for the info.
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#15 TheRedBaron

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 08:08 PM

No worries.

Prinz Eugen is my favourite of the 'Balkan' SS divisions...
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

#16 SGT Killjoy

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 05:02 AM

Maybe if they had done so, they would have more oil, which they were horribly lacking towards the end. They needed a source, because they couldn't get it any other way.




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