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Allies took Berlin first


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#1 Platton

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 08:21 PM

What do you think if the allies had took Berlin first.

Do you think that the cold war could be avoided?
Did the division of germany would have take place?

Waiting for your comments
Thank you
"Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily"
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#2 Kai-Petri

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 09:28 AM

I do think it was agreed before ( jan 1945 ?)that the Red Army would get Berlin and Germany would be divided according to certain sectors and later on Berlin as well between these countries.

By breaking this deal who knows the war would go on between the allied nations, then again Monty and Patton seems to have favoured this choice; Go for Berlin. Patton , if I recall correctly , though of going all the way to Moscow as well.

At least after making the deal of Germany it would have been like a slap in the face for Russians if the Western Allied troops tried to take Berlin.
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#3 Jaeger

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 10:24 AM

Kai I think you are referring to the Eclipse plans for the occupation of Germany.

It was Ike who put the brakes on for the allies.
He sent a letter to the generalissimus without consulting his political masters on the matter.

The US generals had very little political reasoning for the campaining, compared with the rest of the warring nations. The US officers were just interested in ending the war as quickly as possible.

Ike discussed the matter of taking Berlin with Bradley. Brad signalled that the butchers bill would be 100000 men, and Ike decided that it was too high a price for a trophy. This was wired to Stalin who decided that it was a sham and that the Allies was going to capture Berlin. In his reply to Ike, Stalin agreed that Berlin was 'just another placename' and that he would use second rate troops to isolate and capture it in due course.

Many beleived that Hitler was either in the Alps, or going there before any siege on Berlin could be staged. In retrospect it is hard to understand that the Allied intelligence beleived the reports of the SS werewolf plans with fortresses in the alps etc.

At any rate Ike agreed to halt his troops at the river (was it Elbe?) so that there would be no incidents of Allied shooting at Soviets or vice versa. (the latter did occur though)

There are numerous accounts of the disbeleif, tears and anger that occured when the fighting men were told that they would not get the ultimate price that some had fought 6 years to get...
'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

#4 Richard

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 12:50 PM

If the western Allies said stuff the Russians lets go for it. The outcome may have played right in to Hitler's hands, he was waiting for the Allies to split, but that was not the case just as well, the result may have been a dreadful out come.

#5 pillboxesuk

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 04:35 PM

We have to remember that Roosevelt thought that Stalin was a reasonable man and that the Cold War was still sometime in the future. Churchill knew better , but he was very much the junior partner.

Even if the western allies had reached Berlin first they would have pulled out to the their occupation zone as per their agreement with the Russians.

The Americans reached Leipzig in May 1945 which was well into the Soviet Zone and then withdrew I think in July much to the upset of the locals.
“This is a tale you will tell your grandchildren, and mightily bored they’ll be.” Lt. Gen. Brian Horrocks commander of British XXX Corps September 16, 1944 prior to Operation Market.

#6 PzJgr

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 04:58 PM

Had the Western allies taken Berlin, they would have left that area with the exception of Berlin itself. It would have changed nothing. The wall would still have been raised.
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#7 Jaeger

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 07:40 PM

Remember that with control of Berlin, the allies would have had an ace up teir sleave with regards to getting the USSR to honor the previous agreements. (free elections in eastern Europe etc.)

The prestige in capturing Berlin cannot be overrated. The veterans I know of are still angry that they did not capture it. Many feel that the politicians pampered the USSR. If there was no deal between USSR and Germany, WW2 would have been different.

I agree with Richard. If the Allies had captured Berlin there would have been reactions from the USSR.
'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

#8 PzJgr

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 07:45 PM

I disagree, the Americans pulled out of Czechoslavkia without using it as leverage against the Soviets. And this is an area gained by Patton and we all know how much he hated the Soviets. So, I think Berlin would have been handed over just because we had agreed to do it.
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#9 Za Rodinu

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 09:15 PM

Originally posted by pillboxesuk:
The Americans reached Leipzig in May 1945 which was well into the Soviet Zone and then withdrew I think in July much to the upset of the locals.

Yes, but the opposite occurred in Vienna, so? Treaties are treaties.

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#10 pillboxesuk

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 09:41 PM

Za not sure what you mean by "the opposite happened with Vienna". Can you clarify?

If the western allied had gone to war with the Soviet Union in 1945 I believe there would have been major unrest among the British forces. There was a strong feeling amongst the ranks of having fought a war jointly against the evils of Nazism with their soviet comrades and very left wing beliefs of creating a better world.

Remember how the Churchill Government was swept away by a Labour (socialist) landslide in 1945. Most of the troops just wanted go home.

I would appreciate any views on how the general body of US troops felt.
“This is a tale you will tell your grandchildren, and mightily bored they’ll be.” Lt. Gen. Brian Horrocks commander of British XXX Corps September 16, 1944 prior to Operation Market.

#11 bigiceman

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 11:16 PM

I am sure that the soldiers did feel cheated by the order to halt short of Berlin. I am also sure that the price they would have paid in blood would have had them wishing for the Russians to have the dirty job. I don't know if the casualties would have been as high as the Russians experienced. The Germans may not have felt so hopeless and surrendered more easily to the Western forces. There still would have been very high casualty rates, very high.
PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

#12 skunk works

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 12:35 AM

I believe the Iceman has nailed it.
I also believe that any assult on Berlin would have been met by civilians & troops alike all unarmed and trying to surrender to the Americans rather than the other option.
So many that it would have been an Exodus!
Only the "Hardcore" would have remained to fight in the city proper.
The Russians could have had this pound of flesh if they wanted it that bad.
I'll bet everyone there was wishing for the "American" option.
If it was me I would have dropped leaflets saying that I was going to bomb that city "FLAT", and give the people (soldiers/civilians) alike directions on how to surrender and where to go.
This didn't work in Japanese cities. You were shot for trying to pick up or read the warning leaflets!
At least I would have tried.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says "Yes", you know he's a crook. Groucho Marx

#13 Za Rodinu

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 03:48 AM

Originally posted by pillboxesuk:
Za not sure what you mean by "the opposite happened with Vienna". Can you clarify?

Hi Pillboxesuk, hadn't met before!

Sorry, what I meant to say was that the Red Army did occupy Austria first, but then retreated from this zone previously agreed to be under Western occupation.

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#14 Za Rodinu

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 03:51 AM

Originally posted by skunk works:
I also believe that any assult on Berlin would have been met by civilians & troops alike all unarmed and trying to surrender to the Americans rather than the other option.
So many that it would have been an Exodus!

If that started to occur I'm sure Hitler would have pulled Marshal Schörner from the East to the West (not a very big distance then!) to start a similar defeatist hanging program, and then I'm sure we wouldn't really see much of an Exodus...

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#15 skunk works

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 04:51 AM

Live on your feet, or die on your knees
Live on your knees, or die on your feet...whatever
Key words:
Live
Die
It's all how you choose to do it!
No way would they have dimished their front lines and opened the door, just to kill their own people, only to be killed quicker themselves.
You'd be suprised how strong a survival instinct is when imminent death is on the line.
By that time no one had any illusions as to the final outcome.
Only choice as to when and where.
You, me, anyone would do anything for 1 more breath.
The best option was to head for American lines, and they all knew that.
Why did Russia build that wall again?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says "Yes", you know he's a crook. Groucho Marx

#16 No.9

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 02:14 PM

”Do you think that the cold war could be avoided?
Did the division of germany would have take place?”


Short answer agreeing with other posts, ‘no’ and ‘no’. Too much had happened by the time Berlin was taken and even without diplomatic agreements, the SU would always have huge tracts of territory after their advance. Being the ones to allow the taking of a major city to soak-up resources was wisely avoided by the West as the trophy was not worth the cost.

Stalin could enjoy the same euphoria in 1945 as Hitler did in 1940 when Germany was ‘on a roll’/intoxicated with success. Approaching ’45 Britain progressively became the junior political member of the main three Allies. As Stalin progressively revealed what he wanted for the SU, little could have been opposed meaningfully without the will of the US.

Whatever level of concern in Eastern Europe you may believe the US had, the policy applied was to move forces to the Pacific to aid the defeat of Japan, not to enter into a new conflict with the SU. In a ‘mad’ moment in ‘45, Churchill ordered Alanbrooke (Chief of Staff) to produce a feasibility report on an offensive against the SU. Alanbrooke recorded how absurd he though the idea was, and the ensuing report did not take him long and correctly concluded any prospect was pointless unless also adopted by the US. At this time, not only American forces were actually being withdrawn from Europe, but also men of the British Commonwealth.

What followed was something not too dissimilar from 1938, appeasement of a dictator. On this occasion however, the ‘appeasers’ had shown they could and would fight. Nevertheless, it was also true this dictator had a much larger proven force than the previous one. The one thing he did not have was the Atom bomb. Hence the sabre rattling continued to build to fever pitch with Stalin getting away with as much as he possibly dared. Equally the Allies resisted/denied Stalin as much as they possibly dared.

Something I see in no doubt is that Stalin would have brought all Europe under his control if he could have, and would not have stopped there.

No.9

#17 FramerT

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 03:35 PM

Schorner himself attempted escape from Russian capture...but was caught none the less.
1 day before Germany surrendered, he told his men "they are free to make their way west".
He did'nt lead them, they were on their own while he made his escape.

What a hypocrite.
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#18 skunk works

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 02:46 AM

I wonder if anyone really knows how close that confrontation between the US(and company)/SU really was?
I know that what #9 says is true, but as he points out ol "Uncle Joe" was starting to look alot like ol "Adolf". Acting like him too.
Just look at a map back then.
Physical semantics, the same arrogant, blood-thirsty "Butt-head" with a different face/language.
Besides the Patton thing, I've heard of other "Mexican" stand-offs between the afore mentioned parties.
I'm convinced that people who get information from the "Party" liners have never heard of, and will never hear of. (cuz they already know everything)
Most are very vague (firing incidents) and quickly covered up as mistaken identity. (hrrrump-fa)
I've talked to people who know of an incident where 2 mustangs while dog-fighting over Berlin (you know, that city that the Russians took all by themselves), ran low on fuel and landed in Russian occupied territory.
The story goes that the Russians said they'd give the pilots back, but they were keeping the airplanes.
The group Commanders answer to that was, (my Chinese is a bit "rusty") YUK-FOO!
Two groups were alerted, and some pilots were in their "pits" with motors running when the order to stand down came through. They were, (everybody was) going to get them back.
The Russians "back-peddeled", and said it was all a misunderstanding, and pilots and planes returned. Bull-spit.
They pushed their luck at any/every oppertunity.
Appeasment of a dictator, from #9
He murdered how many of his own people?
No wonder he was Saddam's idol.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says "Yes", you know he's a crook. Groucho Marx

#19 Za Rodinu

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 08:34 AM

Originally posted by skunk works:
Why did Russia build that wall again?

The official reason (excuse) was that it was to prevent the Western population to come back and crowd the superior Eastern Germany health services.

I swear I heard this!

:D :D :D

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#20 skunk works

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 02:47 PM

Actually, (officially), it was because everyone wanted "Silver" caps on their teeth, instead of "Gold".

I swear I heard this!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says "Yes", you know he's a crook. Groucho Marx

#21 bigiceman

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 03:36 PM

I heard that it was because so many people were getting injured in the barbed wire that out of concern for their safety it was decided to make a real wall.
PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

#22 Za Rodinu

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 05:33 PM

Hmm, guys, when I made the comment above I may not have made it clear enough that I did hear this strange explanation from official literature from "The East", it was not a joke.

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#23 bigiceman

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 07:59 PM

I didn't think yours was a joke Za. Looks like regulation one-each propaganda to me, clear and simple. It is still a joke when you look back on the fact that they thought they could tell people that and they would believe it. :eek:

Mine was not official in any way. :D No really. ;)
PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

#24 skunk works

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 04:40 AM

I didn't think it was a joke either. It had just the right amount of desperation in it to be a "credible lie" (is that a word?) of the "Spin Doctors".
I'd guess that I think too much of "Checkov" (when I hear that stuff) from Star Trek, and how everything is a Russian inwention.
I've heard that spies/w_ores (of Russian origin) were easily distinguished by their "Silver" teeth.
That is if they were dumb enough to try something stupid with their "head-lights" on like that.
I swear I never heard about dental preferances.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says "Yes", you know he's a crook. Groucho Marx

#25 Platton

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 09:52 PM

Even if the Allies and The Soviets had agreed first,by the end of march Stalin delibaretly lied to Eisenhower about is target.

He told that him that he was heading to Dresden, but in fact he was rushing his troups to Berlin. The real reason for that rush was the WKI Wilhem-Kaiser Institu.

I heard that Stalin was rushing to take this first to get the component and the german scientist who were working on the atomic program. It is after that that he paied attention to czechoslosvakia for the mining....
"Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily"
Napoleon Bonaparte




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