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Prinz Eugen In 1945


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#1 Shuttlelover101

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 05:44 PM

Guys,
When Prinz Eugen Surrendered to the British in May 1945 in Copenhagen which is in Denmank. She was then taken back to Wilhelmshaven on May 28th, to be turned over the US as a War prize. She was Escorted by light Cruiser Dido and Heavy cruiser Devonshire and Two Distroyers (H.M.C.S. Iroqoois and H.M.S. Savage). my question is Were Was Devonshire, was she behind Prinz Eugen or where was she at, Exactly? And Did Prinz Eugen have a Chance to Escape in to open water or were there British Sailors on board her to mak sure she didn't make a run for it? But there is the twist here, Her Ammunition was offloaded under British orders, so she didn't have any of her 8" shells.

So My question here is could she have gotten away or would she have been sank right off the bat or blow out of the water? and Explan why!

But there's an add on to this also: What If" light cruiser Nürnberg draw off Dido and one of the Distroyer Savage. Could PE draw off Devonshire and the other Distroyer Iroquois. what were the odds on them actually getting away, I know PE didn't have any shells, but she did have her torpedoes i believe? Kind of what i told my two other friends don't sink PE, just corner her and force her to back down and give herself up, then if she dosen't pop off a few warning rounds at again see if she's back down, then if she dosen't, then sink her! But don't sink her right off the bat.

If Prinz Eugen was able to escape from Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage? How would she fair again the 10 heavy weight of the US Navy: North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama, Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Missouri and that's only if she had the legs to get out to japan or would they (Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage) trap her long before then? What you guys thing and explain it to me ok.. IF she did get out there(Pacific), i didnt went her getting in to a fight with these 10 ships. but could they (North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama, Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Missouri) Corner her and what would happened then and EXPLAIN it to me? my think with them just trapping her, and either, the four Iowa's take her back to britain, or the ten take her to a US Naval Base! What do you guys really thing?

But what do you guys think? Or are they both dogmeat any way??

Edited by Shuttlelover101, 26 February 2010 - 04:14 AM.

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#2 lwd

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 05:50 PM

Haven't you asked this question before?

#3 brndirt1

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 05:58 PM

What would the PE use for fuel exactly if it isn't supplied by the captors post-war? The Kriegsmarine was bone-dry.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#4 TiredOldSoldier

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 06:20 PM

Why and where would she escape to? had they wanted, and had fuel for it, getting from Denmark to Sweden a night was possibly doable but to what purpose?

I have seen a picture of Devonshire sailling in formation with Prinz Eugen a couple of ship lengths to her starboard, the other ships mentioned are not visible, I will post it if I can find it again.

#5 Shuttlelover101

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:03 PM

guys,
If Prinz Eugen was able to escape from Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage? How would she fair again the 10 heavy weight of the US Navy: North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama, Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Missouri and that's only if she had the legs to get out to japan or would they (Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage) trap her long before then? What you guys thing and explain it to me ok.. IF she did get out there(Pacific), i didnt went her getting in to a fight with these 10 ships. but could they (North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama, Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Missouri) Corner her and what would happened then and EXPLAIN it to me? my hols thing is them just trapping her, and either, the four Iowa's take her back ti britain, or the ten take her to a US Naval Base! What do you guys really thing?
Nikki

#6 brndirt1

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:13 PM

She couldn't get there, couldn't survive any of the Atlantic Fleet, RN or USN, and had no hope of being anything more than a coffin for any foolish enough to try such a silly thing. Why would you ask? Do you think the Prinz was some sort of supership or something? It was a fine heavy cruiser, but not much more.

Prinz Eugen Data:
Displacement: standard 14,240 mt, full load 19,042 mt. (metric tons)
Dimensions: overall length 212.5 m, beam 21.7 m, maximum draft 7.2 m, height 12.45 m.
Armor: belt 80 mm, turrets 70-160 mm, upper deck 30 mm, armor deck 30 mm, conning tower 150 mm, torpedo bulkhead 20 mm.
Armament: 8 x 20.3cm/L60, 12 x 10.5cm/L65, 12 x 3.7cm/L83, 28 x 2cm, 12 x 53.3cm torpedoes.
Aircraft: 3 x Arado ar 196.
Propulsion plant: 12 boilers, three Germania turbine sets, 132,000 hp.
Speed: 32.5 knots.
Endurance: 6,800 nm at 16 knots.
Fuel capacity: 4,250 mt.

Edited by brndirt1, 04 February 2010 - 09:21 PM.

Happy Trails,
Clint.

#7 Shuttlelover101

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:16 PM

Guys,
She stayed by her bigger brother side in the DS fight, and prove, how deadly she could be! that specks for itself! what ships did the US have in the Atlantic at the time, most of her big gun ships were in the Pacific by then?
Nikki

#8 Erich

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:17 PM

the Prinz would be out of commission so fast and overwhelmed that is pretty simple to see, besides in reality the P.E. crew knew the war was lost and was over and wanted to get back to their Families back home ..........

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#9 Shuttlelover101

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:29 PM

Erich,
what us ship were in the Atlantic at the time, most of her big gun ships were in the Pacific by then? im just asking?
Nikki

#10 brndirt1

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:45 PM

Guys,
She stayed by her bigger brother side in the DS fight, and prove, how deadly she could be! that specks for itself! what ships did the US have in the Atlantic at the time, most of her big gun ships were in the Pacific by then?
Nikki


What time frame are you speaking of here? After the Prinz was commissioned the USN had a number of capital ships in the Atlantic, including (I think) three carriers. I think there were five or six battleships, and 20 cruisers (heavy and light) and some submarines as well on "neutrality patrol". Of course the Prinz would have to get away from the entire RN before the USN would put it to the bottom.

While it is true that the United States was officially neutral until December 8th of 1941, the U.S. Navy really "entered" World War II on September 5th of 1939 when the CNO, Admiral Harold R. (Betty) Stark, initiated Neutrality Patrol operations in the Caribbean and in the waters 200 miles off the coasts of both North and South America.

In the fall of 1939 the USN’s Atlantic Squadron consisted of 3 older but upgraded battleships (Arkansas, New York, and Texas), and after June of 1941 they were joined by the battleships Washington, New Mexico and the Mississippi, the old carrier Ranger was joined by the Wasp in mid-1940 in the Atlantic Fleet.

Then the carrier Yorktown didn’t leave Hampton Roads for the Pacific until the 20th of April 1940 so she would probably still be there if any part of the Kreigsmarine (Prinz Eugen) suddenly showed up on our east coast. And the carrier Hornet was added to the Atlantic Fleet in late 1941 and may have stayed put if the Nazis had showed up instead of transferring to the Pacific Fleet in March of 1942 for the Doolittle raid.

The USN's Atlantic Fleet also started out with 12 heavy cruisers, some light cruisers, five land-based patrol wings, and multitude of destroyers. And let’s also remember the hundreds of USCG cutters and such which were afloat and patrolling the US waters inside of the thirty mile range I believe. I don't know how many FDR had sent to Greenland to take over the "iceberg" patrol after Denmark was invaded, but that was a Coast Guard operation.

And what do you mean when you alude to it's deadly atributes as if it; "specks (sic) for itself!" The Prinz may have hit the Hood once and the Prince of Wales two or three times out of her 180 20 cm (8") main gun shots. Even if you give her a hit ratio of four out of 180, that isn't too "deadly". And those pin-prick rounds were of no consequence to the big boys.

Edited by brndirt1, 04 February 2010 - 10:08 PM.

Happy Trails,
Clint.

#11 brndirt1

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:23 PM

Erich,
what us ship were in the Atlantic at the time, most of her big gun ships were in the Pacific by then? im just asking?
Nikki


No, they were split between the two fleets Pacific and Atlantic with slightly more of the battlships in the Pacific, but not all by any stretch of the imaginaion. By 1941 it was six in the Atlantic Fleet and seven in the Pacific Fleet (the Utah in the Pacific really shouldn't count as she had become a "target ship" by then). The Asiatic fleet was short on "big gun ships", having only cruisers, destroyers, and submarines; but the other two had battleships, heavy and light cruisers, and carriers with submarine compliments.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#12 Shuttlelover101

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:04 PM

Guys,
i would pin any of are heavy and light cruisers against PG.. She was a lot bigger!
Nikki

#13 brndirt1

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:09 PM

Guys,
i would pin any of are heavy and light cruisers against PG.. She was a lot bigger!
Nikki


One on one, perhaps. But only a fool fights fair in a war, even pre-war you would have to confront 12 USN heavy cruisers. You loose.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#14 Erich

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:15 PM

have you considered air power thumping the Eugen or Allied subs. the Eugen could of gone nowhere without being detected
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#15 brndirt1

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:33 PM

Guys,
i would pin any of are heavy and light cruisers against PG.. She was a lot bigger!
Nikki


The Prinz didn't have all that outstanding a battle history, in reality it had one foray into deep blue water. The one sortie with the Bismarck. All it's other efforts were in resticted waters against smaller or non-existant surface ship foes. It isn’t like the Prinz had all that glorious a battle history really.

24 May 1941: Between 0555 and 0609, together with Bismarck engages the battle cruiser Hood and the battleship Prince of Wales. Obtains at least one hit on Hood before the mighty British battle cruiser is sunk after 11 salvos from the Bismarck at 0601. Afterwards obtains three hits on Prince of Wales. Expends 179 x 20.3 cm and 66 x 10.5 cm projectiles and remains herself undamaged. At 1814, in the afternoon leaves Bismarck and heads south.

26 May 1941: Refuels at sea from tanker Spichern.

1 June 1941: Enters Brest.

2 July 1941: Hit by a bomb in Brest. 60 dead.

11-13 February 1942: Operation Cerberus. Prinz Eugen leaves Brest with the battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau escorted by six destroyers for a dash through the English Channel. Group commanded by Vice Admiral Otto Ciliax. She expends over 5,000 rounds of AA ammunition, and fires some heavy shells at British destroyers. Reaches Brunsbüttel undamaged in the morning of the 13th.

21 February 1942: The Prinz Eugen, as flagship with C-in-C of Battleships (Vice Admiral Otto Ciliax) on board, departs Kiel for Norway together with the heavy cruiser Admiral Scheer.

23 February 1942: At 0704 hours, the British submarine Trident (Commander G. M. Sladen) scores a torpedo hit on Prinz Eugen's stern off Trondheim. The damage is severe, the rudder is lost, and 50 men lose their lives, but she manages to reach Trondheim by her own power and join the Tirpitz and Admiral Scheer.

February-May 1942: The ship undergoes temporary repairs carried out by the repair ship Huascaran in the Lofjord a branch of the bigger Åsenfjord near Trondheim.

17-18 May 1942: The ship returns to Kiel for final repairs.

October 1942: Repair work finished. Leaves for the Baltic.

9 January 1943: Leaves Gotenhafen for Norway together with the battleship Scharnhorst and three destroyers. Detected by British planes on the 11th, the group returns to Gotenhafen where it arrives on the 12th.

23 January 1943: Sails for Norway again with Scharnhorst but is detected one more time by British planes and returns to the Baltic.

29 February 1943: Captain Werner Ehrhardt takes over command of the Prinz Eugen from Captain Voß.

March 1943-1944: Used as a training ship in the Baltic.

5 January 1944: Captain Hans-Jürgen Reinicke takes over command of the Prinz Eugen from Captain Ehrhardt.

19-28 June 1944: Sortie to Finland.

20 August 1944: Shore bombardment against the soviets in the Gulf of Riga.

20-25 September 1944: Escorts a convoy retreating from Finland.

10-15 October 1944: Prinz Eugen, flying the flag of Vice-Admiral Thiele, Lützow, three destroyers, and four torpedo boats depart Gotenhafen for support operations off the coast of Memel against the advancing Soviet armies.

15 October 1944: Prinz Eugen rams her fellow ship the light cruiser Leipzig amidships off Gotenhafen. It takes fourteen hours to separate both ships.

13 November 1944: After two weeks in dock at Gotenhafen, repair work is finished and the ship is ready again for action.

December 1944: Main 20.3 cm inner gun tubes refitted in Gotenhafen.

End of January 1945: The Prinz Eugen is ordered to the coast of Samland, north of Könisgberg, to provide support and cover the evacuation of refugees. From 29-31 January the Prinz expends 871 rounds of 20.3 cm ammunition against the Samland coast.

10 March - 4 April 1945: Prinz Eugen is engaged in shore bombardment operations against Russian troops off the Gulf of Danzig. The ships fires on land targets around Tiegenhoff, Ladekopp, Zoppot and Danzig. On the 26th, one crewman is killed by machine-gun fire from Russian aircraft. On the 31st, nine men are killed as a result of a hit from a Russian rocket bomb. In twenty-six days the ship has expended 4,871 rounds of 20.3 cm ammunition, and 2,644 rounds of 10.5 cm ammunition.

10 April 1945: After expending all her ammunition, the Prinz Eugen leaves the Baltic for Copenhagen where she arrives on the 20th.

7 May 1945: At 1600 hours, The battle flag is lowered and the ship surrenders at Copenhagen with the light cruiser Nürnberg.

8 May 1945: The Prinz Eugen is handed over to the British.

Edited by brndirt1, 04 February 2010 - 11:38 PM.

Happy Trails,
Clint.

#16 brndirt1

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 12:59 AM

have you considered air power thumping the Eugen or Allied subs. the Eugen could of gone nowhere without being detected


And don't forget the radar being experimented with by the USN at the time, for ship detection and "fall of shot" by the battleships as well as range finding. In the Atlantic Fleet.

The "XAF", an experimental radar that resulted from several years' technical progress by the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL), was constructed in 1938, following a late February decision to install a radar set on a major warship. Operating at 200 megacycles (1.5 meter wavelength) at a power of 15 kilowatts, the XAF featured a "bedspring"-like antenna about 17 feet square. This was mounted in a rotating yoke that allowed it to scan around the horizon, and to elevate for what was hoped would be improved aircraft detection. This large antenna and yoke had to be strong enough for sea service, while remaining as light as possible to avoid excessive topside weight.

Accordingly, the Brewster Aeronautical Corporation (then also building the Navy's first monoplane shipboard fighter, the F2A "Buffalo"), was given the job of fabricating a suitable duralumin structure. The XAF's transmitter, receiver and other equipment were made by NRL.

When development and construction were complete, the XAF was installed on the battleship New York. This work, with the antenna mounted atop the pilothouse (where it displaced a large rangefinder -- moved to the top of the ship's Number Two 14-inch gun turret) was completed in December 1938. During nearly three months of constant operation, averaging almost twenty hours daily as New York participated in winter maneuvers and battle practice in the Caribbean, the XAF's performance and reliability exceeded expectations. It detected aircraft up to 100 nautical miles (nm) away and ships out to 15 nm. The radar was also employed for navigation and in gunnery practice, spotting the fall of shot and even tracking projectiles in flight.

At the conclusion of these tests, the USS New York's Commanding Officer recommended installation of radar in all aircraft carriers (whose vulnerability to surprise air attack was very well-understood), while the Commander of the Atlantic Squadron commented "The XAF equipment is one of the most important military developments since the advent of radio ...".

Later in 1939, the XAF was reengineered and placed in production by the Radio Corporation of America. Designated CXAM, six of these production models were delivered in 1940 and installed on an aircraft carrier, a battleship and four cruisers. An improved version, CXAM-1, with a simplified antenna, was produced in greater numbers. By the time the United States entered World War II in December 1941, the use of radar in the U.S. Navy was rapidly expanding.


See:

Weapons & Sensors -- Radar -- U.S. Navy XAF Radar
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#17 Shuttlelover101

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 01:02 AM

Guys,
lets step back for a moment and look at just those four ship(Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage)! One heavy cruiser, one light cruiser and two DD's, my thing is corner her in a fjord, then if she dosent give in,fly over her with a few planes, then if she dose back down, then drop the bomb, but give her a chance to give up again, that's all im trying to say!
Nikki

#18 brndirt1

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 01:27 AM

Guys,
lets step back for a moment and look at just those four ship(Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage)! One heavy cruiser, one light cruiser and two DD's, my thing is corner her in a fjord, then if she dosent give in,fly over her with a few planes, then if she dose back down, then drop the bomb, but give her a chance to give up again, that's all im trying to say!
Nikki


That isn't what you were proposing in the beginning was it? If so I apologize, but that isn't how I recall your thread beginning.

As in:

Guys,
When Prinz Eugen Surrendered to the British in May 1945 in Copenhagen which is in Denmank. She was then taken back to Wilhelmshaven on May 28th, to be turned over the US as a War prize. She was Escorted by light Cruiser Dido and Heavy cruiser Devonshire and Two Distroyers (H.M.C.S. Iroqoois and H.M.S. Savage). my question is Were Was Devonshire, was she behind Prinz Eugen or where was she at, Exactly? And Did Prinz Eugen have a Chance to Escape in to open water or were there British Sailors on board her to mak sure she didn't make a run for it? But there is the twist here, Her Ammunition was offloaded under British orders, so she didn't have any of her 8" shells.

So My question here is could she have gotten away or would she have been sank right off the bat or blow out of the water? and Explan why!

But there's an add on to this also: What If" light cruiser Nürnberg draw off Dido and one of the Distroyer Savage. Could PE draw off Devonshire and the other Distroyer Iroquois. what were the odds on them actually getting away, I know PE didn't have any shells, but she did have her torpedoes i believe? Kind of what i told my two other friends don't sink PE, just corner her and force her to back down and give herself up, then if she dosen't pop off a few warning rounds at again see if she's back down, then if she dosen't, then sink her! But don't sink her right off the bat.

If Prinz Eugen was able to escape from Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage? How would she fair again the 10 heavy weight of the US Navy: North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama, Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Missouri and that's only if she had the legs to get out to japan or would they (Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage) trap her long before then? What you guys thing and explain it to me ok.. IF she did get out there(Pacific), i didnt went her getting in to a fight with these 10 ships. but could they (North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama, Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Missouri) Corner her and what would happened then and EXPLAIN it to me? my hols thing is them just trapping her, and either, the four Iowa's take her back ti britain, or the ten take her to a US Naval Base! What do you guys really thing?

What was the original premise then? Towing her, surrounding her, letting her escape, hunting her down, or what exactly? I doubt she held a Kriegsmarine crew at the time of her leaving the Danish waters. They were without interred, and a "prize crew" of RN sailors aboard.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#19 Erich

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 01:57 AM

thought I recognized this thread from somewhere ........

Feldgrau.net • View topic - Prinz Eugen in May 1945
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#20 Shuttlelover101

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 05:01 AM

Erich,
yes, I have it on a few forums.. I'm on 6- forums. brndirt1: those four ships (Dido, Devonshire, Iroqoois, Savage) were the ones taking her back to Germany. but ive been adding ships in to make it a little more fun, and just to see what everyone through about!
Nikki

#21 Volga Boatman

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 08:41 AM

Eugen's battle record is certainly nothing to write home about.

Apart from an 'unofficial' sinking of Bismark, it's hard to justify the money and materials spent of the Reich surface fleet. Seems to me they spent most of the war sitting in port and having bombs dropped on them. Oh well, suppose it gave the RAF something different to do.
Llamas are bigger than frogs.:cool:

#22 Shuttlelover101

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 05:41 PM

Volga,
this who idea, came out of a dream i had about her a few mouths back.. And I just wanted to see wha you guys through about it?
Nikki

#23 Gerard

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 05:55 PM

Its a ridiculous idea to be honest. How could this have happened - look what happened the Bismarck - all we need is for a fairey swordfish to get a lucky torpedo and thats it - game over. The Japanese and Americans proved time and again that Surface Ships were totally obsolete in 1941 - look what happened to the Prince of Wales and Repulse. Who cares?
Whats more important is what she did in the Baltic in 1944-45. She participated in the Kriegsmarine's finest hour.

#24 lwd

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 06:42 PM

I agree with most of what you said. However the following is clearly incorrect.

..... The Japanese and Americans proved time and again that Surface Ships were totally obsolete in 1941 ....

Indeed they aren't even obselecent today much less obsolete.

#25 Gerard

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 06:51 PM

I agree with most of what you said. However the following is clearly incorrect.

Indeed they aren't even obselecent today much less obsolete.

Great!




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