'Dora' - a gun with Real Style !

During a visit to the IWM in London yesterday I found myself looking at the most incredible shell.

80cm diameter, 3.75 metres high, 7 tons in weight ( this is just the projectile we're talking about !! )

Apparently, the railway gun 'Dora' fired 48 of these things at Sebastopol. Can you imagine that ? What can it have sounded like ?

Krupp built 2 of these behemoths, and I believe that this shell is one of the only remaining relics.

There is a terrific French website about the guns but I just cannot make the URL transfer to this site. The endless fascination of German WWII weapons development. . . .

 

Martin,

Richard J. O'Rourke wrote the book ANZIA ANNIE: SHE WAS NO LADY. It is a study of German railway artillery, softcover, 227 pages, 15 photos. The author's research included two trips to Europe to interview German veterans and investigate archives. Tactical deployment of these weapons along with ordnance development.

Mr. O'Rourke is a veterans himself. His book is self-published I think and you should be able to reach him at 7600 Fox Hunt Court, Clinton, MD 20735, USA - ISBN 0-9645084-0-0

I have been trying to get in touch with him on another Washinton State address but have failed to do so. I got his address from another vet, Buck Winterowd, who wrote a self published book about his experiences with the 1st Armored Div.

 

Hallo, gentlemen!

I just love those gigantic guns. They are like a Wagnerian obsession of the nazi regime, and not entirely of the nazis, we, Germans have that kind of madness... All have to be the mightiest, greatest. Wagner's opera is the perfect example, that is why I call this a wagnerian obsession. If I listen to the ride of the Walküre (translation?) and I can only imagine Stukas and Panzerdivisions...

But comming back to the issue. Martin, have you watched the films of "Dora" and "Gustav" shooting right to Sebastopol. WOW! It is the hell! I was impressed by that 50-metres-long barrel!!! And that steal monster of 3.500 tons!!! It required a man's batallion to move each of those guns! There are even some good films of Erich von Manstein congratulating "Gustav" or "Dora"'s men, with a mischievous smile on his face, like a kid with a new toy...

Some experts said that those guns were useless and that just made the German war machine, because they diverted much resources from other things. But, it is very clear for me that those three-tons-shells had some importance of the fall of the port of Sebastopol. There were some Soviet shelters which were eight floors below the ground where they kept ammunition and supplies. The Luftwaffe could not do anything against them; "Dora" and "Gustav" could.

"Anzio Annie" is another different story, because it was much more practical. Althought of everything, I don't think that those mighty guns were a complete waste. I like them...

 

Friedrich,

I'll bet you're favorite part of Apocalypse Now is the part where the US Major(?) is playing Wagner during the helicopter attack on the VC village....'I love the smell of napalm in the morning...smells like....victory'.

Back to the guns; I have no idea what kind of gun Anzio Annie actually was. I think that the author witnessed their firepower at Anzio and therefor wrote the book. As I said, I don't have the book (yet) and am certainly not up to scratch with artillery guns...But i thought it would make a nice addition to Martin's library...Knowing now his passion for both BigGuns and books...

 

Hallo, guys!

Martin, are we really talking about artillery pieces or aome other kind of GUNS?

Anyway, "Anzio Annie" was a much lighter rail-cannon, which served, obviosly in Anzio and that the Allies really feared because they could actually hear the big BANG! And some English veterans assure that we could hit a lorry with it, twenty miles away! And it was very simple to reload and hide rapidly in a cave, so Allied aeroplanes could never find it...

And yes, Stevin, I love Wagner! And that part of the film! He he he. Althought I could not sing Wagner ever! Not for my delicate voice. I will have to content myself with Mr. Händel, Broschi, Monteverdi, Hasse, Lulli, Purcell, etc.

 

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

'Anzio Annie', although still big, was much smaller than 'Dora'. Her calibre was 'only' 28cm ! She was captured intact by the Americans at Civitavecchia in June 1944 and is now on display at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. There is a superb colour photo in the centre of 'After The Battle' No. 52.

I'd love to see the film of the Sebastopol gun in action !

 

From what I have been told by my Heer/Artillery Officer friend of mine--he said that when firing a railroad gun--it sounded like a train when the shell was passing you by. BTW--this is the vet I got his 41-42 frozen meat medal from. He served in Russia for most of the war as an Artillery Officer. To get a good idea od the sound--watch the great movie: "The Guns of Navarone" and at the near end of the movie--where the big guns fo=ire at the Brit Destroyers--that is a good reproduction of the sound my friend tells me about.

 

Yes, it was indeed like a bloody locomotive flying above your heads... And like the hell when the first shot... But this guns did have style. How famous the "Paris" gun was, by example...

My grandfather said that what he really feared all the time was the artillery, because there is no weapon as mighty and terrifying than it. It could chop you into pieces, beside it demoralises a lot to the enemy. And a big gun like that: WOW! But the Soviet artillery of the end of the war was even worse, 15.000 cannons and 5.000 Katiushas attacking the same spot... Or the American artillery, always there, always accurate.

 

Great thread...
The Anzio Annie gun was a 28cm K5. There were a few of these made and used, I get the idea around ten served throughout the war. Anyone have any info on action histories for any of these?
Like Martin, I have seen the gun at Aberdeen, MD. They have one of the K5s there in nearly perfect condition. Like Martin said about seeing one of the Dora projectiles- wow! I have a photo of my girlfriend standing in front of the K5 (which is named Leopold-side of main car) and you really need to look close to even see she is there!
Ooops- just finshed reading Martin's post- that is Anzio Annie? I had thought otherwise due to the Leopold marking... any info for me Martin?

The Dora and Gustav guns were in fact the largest guns ever produced. 800mm bore. Martin laid out the details of one of the shells. As far as remains go- Dora was accounted for after the war. Really cool story, actually. I read a veteran account on a webpage (whose address I lost!). American GIs basically just stumbled on most of Dora in the woods outside Aachen (probably remembering the wrong city there). Upon further searching, the GIs found the rest of the gun in various states of destruction all along about a 50-mile stretch of railroad tracks. Then the reamins were scrapped (boo-hoo!!!) I'll look for the website... Here's the thing tho- the other gun, the Gustav, apparently was never accounted for after the war. And I believe the same webpage spoke of rumors that the russians captured a big gun after the war and kept in intact. Hmmmm... I wonder...

Friedrich, where could I find those videos you spoke of? I've seen some brief clips of the Dora, but nothing significant. Would love to see more!

 

Don't forget about "thor" the German Siege Motor that they used at Sevestapol. This motor could destroy Russian bunkers that were three and four stories below the ground!

How many years did it take the US military to create those "bunker buster" bombs?
They should have just used a German railway gun or siege motor to hit Saadam or Bin Laden.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Aberdeen, MD at the army ordinace museum still has one smaller German railway gun. I believe this one was captured in Italy?! Does anyone else know? It has been a few years since I have been there.

Matt

 

Hallo, all!

Crazy, those films I watched were in the History Channel in several programmes, but mostly in "Weapons at war". I do not like the documentation of it a lot, but it is nice.

The "Gustav" was stripped down and melted to make new guns and stuff. And yes, they are the largest guns ever made: 800 mm, 3.500 tons, 50 metres long, 7-tons projectiles which could fly 48 kilommetres!!! And as I said, took a batallion human force to move it.

We cannot forget about the mighty "Thor", but was it a mortar or a howitzer? I do remember it was self-propelled, by two Pz III chasises or something... I cannot remember the caliber or the weight, but I do remember it was very big.

Do you know that many of those guns were ordered by especifications of the king of artillery Wilhelm von Leeb? He wanted to smash the Maginot Line with them. But the German industry could deliver them unti late 1941. Anyway, with some "lighter" (400 mm, light, my a...) guns he conquested the Maginot Line anyway.

And I think that is the best part of Von Manstein's command. He was an infantry commander who liked to be in the front, he was a chieff of staff commander, he was a tank commander and he was an artillery commander. The man could play everything!!!

 

Damn... short on time right now!
As far as I know, the Thor would be considered a mortar. (I think I'm thinking of the correct weapon). It was theoretically self propelled, but from what I have read this was not really possible in practice- only really for aiming. I think there were two versions- a 600mm and a 450mm.
mp38- The gun at Aberdeen is a big one- the 28cm K5. Not sure about the specific history tho- Martin Bull thinks the gun is Anzio Annie, which would make sense. Only thing is, the gun says "Leopold" on the side. Not sure about that.

Those Germans and their big guns!
Friedrich- have you ever heard anything about Dora, the other 800mm gun?

 

No, crazy. I actually thought that "Gustav" was the only super gun we had. But now I see they were two of them! And it certainly cheers me up! Those guns were never alone... like scorpions... "Anzio Annie" had a partner also, which I shall not name now... But I think the "Dora" was "Gustav"'s twin. I have always liked the super guns and powerful "wagnerian" weaponry.

 

No, crazy. I actually thought that "Gustav" was the only super gun we had. But now I see they were two of them! And it certainly cheers me up! Those guns were never alone... like scorpions... "Anzio Annie" had a partner also, which I shall not name now... But I think the "Dora" was "Gustav"'s twin. I have always liked the super guns and powerful "wagnerian" weaponry.

 

I have read in a few sources that there were two, the Dora and the Gustav. Both were apparently basically the same, if not identical. The only action history I have heard is from Gustav battering Sevastopol. I would love to find some more complete action histories for either of these guns. Although I get the idea that they spent most of their time being hauled from one place to the next without actually being used...

 

Herr Narr:

Then, both guns saw action in Sevastopol and smashed the city. Althought the "Gustav" only fired 48 times... But it is still impressive. We can see it in Von Manstein's face when he is beside it. Like a kid with the newest fashion'd toy...

Now, do you know about the Italian railgun "Ansaldo" (301mm!)? Well, I do not much about it either, but if you want to look a picture which is certainly impressive, because a man is inside the cannon... watch this: http://comandosupremo.com/Photo3.html

 

Isa also a SHAME, that everything at Aberdeen, is rusting away

 

Yes, you are correct! It is Leopold! I check my photo albulms from my last trip there. You are correct, it is a big one!
This gun was captured in Italy I know that for sure. I am not sure if this gun is the famous "Anzio Annie" though, but it would be possible!

PS- yes the "Thor" was a siege mortar! quite effective too!

Matt

 

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies.

Yes, the 'Aberdeen' gun ( sadly I've never been there !! ) is 'Leopold' ( to the Germans ) or 'Anzio Annie' / 'Anzio Express' ( to the Americans ), the 28cm gun captured intact. The full story can be found in 'After The Battle' magazine No. 52.

'Dora's' shell is to be seen at the IWM in London - 80cm ! Makes 'Anzio Annie' look rather puny !

And 'Thor' - wow - I have seen footage of these guns in action. It was a tracked mortar, moved by railway, and there is a truly splendid 1/72 scale model of this available from Hasegawa.

 

I looked into my info on these guns a bit...
Here's a good webpage on german railway guns...
www.cix.co.uk/~nrobinson/railgun/Railwayguns/ German/German_guns.html
gives some info on Dora and Gustav, although there are no source citations that I saw...

http://members.aol.com/kubinka/kubinmus.htm
this is a link for the catalog of Museum of Armored Equipment in Kubinka, Russai. Only thing I could find on short notice with a photo of the Karl. 60cm mortar, biggest self-propelled gun ever. Thor was the other version, but it only (!!!) measured 54cm.

Thanks Martin, that's kind of what I figured with Leopold. Is there anywhere to read After the Battle online?
And MArtin, if you get the chance, check Aberdeen out! Many of the vehicles and guns are in rough shape (East Coast weather!), but many are definetely worth seeing. Besides Leopold, they have a hetzer with the side cut-away, a couple panthers, etc.