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German experimental weapons in WW2


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#1 Kai-Petri

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Posted 17 December 2002 - 03:53 PM

Hochdruckpumpe (High Pressure Pump) was the cover name for a German super-long-range cannon designed to fire across the English Channel into the Greater London area. The cannon's configuration and layout also provided nicknames like "Busy Lizzie" and "The Millipede".

The theory behind the mechanism of the cannon was that a fin-stabilized shell would be loaded into the breech, together with the appropriate propelling charge. Additional charges would be added into the auxiliary chambers. The initial charge would be ignited and start the shell soaring up the bore. As it passed the auxiliary chambers additional charges would be fired to produce extra gas and thrust to boost the speed of the shell. With all these additional boosts, the shell would leave the muzzle at a very high velocity -- somewhere around 1,524m/sec was projected. The shell would be hauled into the stratosphere, where the thin air offered less air resistance and would permit the projectile to reach a range of about 280km.

Hitler had wished to make the cannon his "V-3" Vengeance Weapon. However, only two shortened versions of the gun were built and they were hurriedly thrown into use during the Ardennes Offensive in December 1944. One or two shots were fired without documented result, and the guns were blown up and abandoned afterwards. Fragments and pieces of the experimental guns are said to be still in existence on the Baltic Coast.

http://www.geocities...n/supergun.html

Wasserfall (Waterfall) was a German radio-controlled supersonic guided missile for anti-aircraft purpose. It was designed to meet a demand for a missile that would intercept hostile aircraft flying at 19,812maltitude at 880km/h and at ranges up to 48km from the launch site. This specification was highly advanced for the 1940s and was not achieved by any major combat aircraft in the war. The intention was to position batteries of these missiles to defend population centers, and about 200 batteries would be needed to cover Germany.
Work and research were started at the Peenemünde Research Station in 1942, and the design borrowed many concepts from the A-4 missile. The first launching tests took place across the Baltic in February 1944, and an altitude of 7010m was reached by the rocket. Seven more prototypes were made and fired by July 1944. Research and development were terminated in February 1945. Some sources have suggested that several of the trial missiles were actually deployed against Allied aircraft. However, there is no evidence to support this claim.
The missle weighed 3545kg at takeoff, and contained a 306kg warhead of high explosive armed with a proximity fuze. Wasserfall would have been a powerful and fearsome addition to Germany's air defenses if only more were produced on time.

Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-1 (Fritz X, SD 1400)
The sudden but arranged capitulation of the Italian fleet to the Allies on 9 September 1943 spurred the Germans to take quick actions against their former ally. The battleship Italia was damaged and Roma sunk as victims of a new type of air-to-surface weapon, the Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-1 or Fritz X. It was a free-falling bomb guided by the parent aircraft. Usually it was dropped at an altitude of about 6,000m; by the time of detonation it would have had gained a velocity close to that of sound.
The control apparatus comprised of electromagnetically operated spoilers activated in sympathy with radio signals from the parent aircraft (often a Dornier Do 217). After dropping the Fritz X, the airplane would have its motors throttled back and be flown to a higher altitude directly above the target, thus enabling the observer to guide the missile with a conventional Lofte 7 bombsight. Direct wire-link control using transmission lines that were 8km long was also possible. However, it was later abandoned for economic reasons.

Rheintochter (Rhine Daughter)
The famous and versatile Rheinmetall-Borsig company developed the Rheintochter ground-to-air missile from 1942 onwards. The first experimental launching tests began in August 1943, and 82 had been fired and tested by 5 January 1945. Only four out of those 82 had failed. The propulsion mechanism included a motor driven by solid fuel, and a solid booster unit for initial take-off. Like the Schmetterling missile, the Rheintochter was guided through radio command, and tracked visually by meand of flare attached to the wings and fins. The warhead composed of 136kg of high explosive and was armed by a "Kranich" acoustic proximity fuze, like the X-4. The design altitude of the original Rheintochter was 8000 meters, but the RLM rejected the design, requesting more altitude from the missile. The power system was then revised to employ solid or liquid fuels, and the booster rockets were placed outside the missile. It was also designed to be launched from an immovable launch site in a pit. This new version came to known as the Rheintochter 3, and production began in May 1944. Six had been built and fired by January 1945, but imperfection still plagued the control system. Development and thus production was canceled on 6 February 1945, as it became clear that the missile was not likely to be ready in time to have a significant impact on fate of the Reich.

http://www.geocities...der/wonder.html
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#2 Kai-Petri

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Posted 17 December 2002 - 03:59 PM

The X-4

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The X-4 is considered by most to be the worlds first practical air to air guided missile. It was developed in 1942-43 at the "Ruhrstahl" firm in Brackwede by Dr. Max Kramer.The missile was to be wire guided to the vicinity of enemy bomber formations, at which point (15 meters) the missile's acoustic proximity fuze would detonate the 20kg HE warhead.
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#3 Erich

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Posted 17 December 2002 - 05:29 PM

It truly would have been interesting if these weapons could have been used operationaly. Only the WR 21 and the R4M were used by the Luftwaffe to tackle Allied bombers......in 1943-45
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#4 Martin Bull

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Posted 17 December 2002 - 05:43 PM

Errrr,Kai - were those photos taken in your front room ? ;)
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#5 CrazyD

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Posted 17 December 2002 - 07:41 PM

A very odd living room indeed! Looks like a party to me!

I've read info before on the Hochdruckpumpe. Seems like another german weapon idea that was, well... an interesting, if futile, idea. Eevn if the gun had become operational, I can't imagine it would really have been worthwhile. Accuracy could not have been good at all... and the size of the shell appears not too much larger than a 15cm arty shell. Not entirely worthwhile!

Erich, I'm slightly confused- which of the weapons are you referring to? The ones that were actually used? I can't quite match up the weapon names you use with Kai's description!

Some sources have suggested that several of the trial missiles were actually deployed against Allied aircraft. However, there is no evidence to support this claim.

This is one of the elements of the german "super-weapons" that has always intrigued me. Especially later in the war, german records seem to be spotty/incomplete. SO I wonder to what extents weapons like this were used? And what was their effect?

Along this line, we could return again to Dora, the german 80cm gun. On this one, in some of our previous threads, there have even been questions raised as to wether or not there were one or two of these monsters. And action histories for most of these weapons seem to be incomplete at best. Intriguing! (sp?)

Anyone else have any info?

I guess some of this would almost be under the What-If area, since we will probably not ever know for sure most of the info on these weapons!
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#6 Erich

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Posted 17 December 2002 - 11:32 PM

Ha, living room, that is a good one Martin ! Though it does indeed to be a den correct ? Someone rebuilding a super weapon !!!!!!1 :eek:

Crazy, no Kai mentioned the pic of the X-4 only.....remember our little chat about Me 262 missions earlier in the year ? We had discussed the first use of the WR 21 or BR 210mm rocket with a launcher under each wing on the Bf 109 and the Fw 190 in 1943, later used with two launchers under each wing for the Bf 110G-2 and the Me 410, both bomber killers. When this mortar/rocket failed, and by the way it was tested for use with the Me 262 and failed.
The R4M was used on wooden and aluminum racks with 12 to 24 under each wing on the Me 262 in JG 7 and JV 44. Towards the last two months a few a/c of JG 7 had the fitting of the horrendous 48 missles which must have been absolutely terrible to witness on the receiving end.....

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#7 Kai-Petri

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Posted 18 December 2002 - 09:07 AM

Sorry Martin,Sorry Guys,

Not my apartment but I sure would like to have the missile hanging from my roof for all to see....I think V-1 or V-2 would be all too much!

On the use of those secret weapons.Check the sites I put there. There´s pics and as well stories on that.I am surprised how many of those were actually tried in action, though with little results..but great ideas in the end.Who knows what all might have happened when the pieces of the puzzle would have fitted..

But very interesting at least scientifically if not very useful in warfare!

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#8 Erich

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Posted 18 December 2002 - 02:31 PM

Kai :

Check the article FAGR 5 under the Naval ops thread header and you will find chat about the Fritz-X and the other two radio guided bombs used in action against Allied Naval shipping....

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#9 CrazyD

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Posted 18 December 2002 - 03:25 PM

Nice info again, gents. Thanks!

Erich, gotcha...

I think Kai's point is very appropriate... if anything, the lack of records for some of these weapons makes the MORE interesting to study! Leaves us guessing and "what-if"ing!
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#10 Erich

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Posted 18 December 2002 - 03:47 PM

True Crazy ! When I started researching the rocket, air to air and ground to air back in the late 1960's there was not a whole heck of alot of materials and of course we did not have the net as we do know to share our knowledge. There is still so much guessing as to what protypes existed as what maybe have been set off from the ground and towards Allied bomber formations. From materials that I have accessed, it appears many were fired off as an experiment but nothing in anger except for the V-1 and V-2 plus the air to air missles/rockets that I mentioned. i've always presumed at least 50 or so of the ramp like ground rockets were fired from near the bigger cities at US B-17's and B-24's, but have never found from what Luftwaffe test or operational flak unit they were a part of......
and hey it's ok to what if ! ;)

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#11 CrazyD

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Posted 18 December 2002 - 05:30 PM

And the best part is, who knows? One of these days, someone could uncover a box in some attic that would prove correct or not our theories!

Some photo stuck in the back of an album...
A previously un-read letter...

Who knows? Although, unfortunatley, much of this info is probaly lost, we can still keep looking!
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#12 Sniper

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 01:52 AM

Great stuff Kai. Definitely makes you wonder how the bomber offensive over Germany would have gone had the ground to air missile systems been in place.

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#13 C.Evans

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 06:07 PM

I think these pictures had Martin Drooling because of the Ordenance! :D ;) :D
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#14 Sniper

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Posted 22 December 2002 - 09:29 AM

Here's a few more German experimental weapons.

K-P got me looking through some of my old reference books, and I found these other experimental weapons for U-Boats.

“Pillenwerfer”

An anti-detection device. The device consisted of a perforated container of a chemical compound based on Calcium Carbide. When it was thrown or released into the sea, a violent chemical reaction with the water caused a dense screen of bubbles which would reflect ASDIC and SONAR waves, thus hiding the sub from detection.

Similar devices are still in use on today’s submarines.

“Kurier”

A high speed radio “squirt” transmitter. The Kurier device was comprised of a number of dials on which basic information, such as the sub’s ID, position, time, pre-arranged phrases, etc. could be set. On establishing contact with it’s base the sub would switch on the device and transmit the pre-set information at very high speed in a series of pulses. This would dramatically cut down the amount of time the sub was transmitting, thus allowing it to avoid detection by radio direction finders.

As with “Pillenwerfer”, today’s submarines also use the same technique to send information and avoid detection.

“Schnee-Orgel” (Snow Organ)

Consisted of a battery of torpedo tubes designed to be fitted on late model U-Boats. Designed to fire up to 10 torpedoes at once, with a 10 degree spread, the basic idea was that a large area of a convoy could be covered, virtually ensuring that there would be at least one successful hit from each salvo. Having fired it’s salvo, the sub could then take immediate evasive action without the need to maneuver to take more shots at the convoy.

“Wasseresel” (Water Donkey)

A dummy U-Boat conning tower, packed with explosives, and mounted on a float. Designed to be towed by a U-Boat on a long line in order to distract enemy sub hunters. Hopefully the enemy ship would spot the fake conning tower and decide to ram it, thus blowing itself up. The idea proved to be highly unpopular with U-Boat crews, since dragging the device through the water would have slowed their sub down and made it harder to maneuver away from enemy anti-sub ships.

AND...my favourite American experimental weapon..

The Northropp XP-79

This Northropp flying wing fighter was to be constructed entirely of magnesium, and powered by one 2,000lb thrust Aerojet rocket engine, with the pilot controlling the aircraft from a prone position. As early as 1943 it was conceived that the aircraft would be capable of achieving 518mph at 40,000 feet.

However after development of the rocket powerplant met unexpected delays it was decided at Northropp that the prototype would be powered by two 2,000lb thrust J30 Westinghouse turbojets.

Now the good bit.

In addition to the projected armament of four 12.7mm machine guns, the XP-79 was also intended to RAM enemy aircraft. Although not intended to be a suicide plane, the XP-79 was designed to slice off portions of an enemy aircraft using the strongly built leading edge of it's wing (I suppose that would have been a case of just shutting your eyes and waiting for the bang).

On the 12th of September 1945, Northropp's test pilot, Harry Crosby, took the prototype on it's first flight. After narrowly missing a fire truck on the runway, the aircraft appeared to make a normal take off. After making a sweeping pass at 10,000 feet, Crosby turned the aircraft back for another pass. The XP-79 stalled, and plunged into a nose down spin. The pilot attempted to bail out, but was hit by a portion of the aircraft, and never opened his chute. The aircraft was completely destroyed.

The project was subsequently cancelled.

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#15 Kai-Petri

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Posted 22 December 2002 - 12:09 PM

Thanx, Sniper!

More things to understand and investigate. Funny how wars really speed up the scientific production! I mean I don´t need a war but things really get going, I guess there´s as well money and resources put into it more than usually.

I think I read somewhere that Werner von Braun was a man with a vision and he got the money and resources and built the V-2, and later on helped man get to the moon. I think it was Speer who said that they actually sent loads of money to Peenemunde...
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#16 Erich

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Posted 22 December 2002 - 07:15 PM

Kurier was also the name of a infra-red device used by Bf 110G-4 equipped German night fighter staffels. It was suppose to home in on heat emissions from the RAF heavy bombers in 1943. It was dropped then brought back at the end of 1944 with the same results.......a big fat )0(
It also meant in German night fighter jargon.....incoming aircraft......

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#17 J.Jence

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Posted 26 December 2002 - 02:16 PM

German chemical weapons and biological weapons.
I want knew more about this did germany use those weapons on front??

[ 26. December 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: J.Jence ]

#18 Kai-Petri

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Posted 26 December 2002 - 06:05 PM

Hello J. Jence,

Check this part of forum for more info.

http://www.ww2forums...ic;f=1;t=000355

I think they did not use either during WW2 ( not confirmed anyway ) but they had the capacity for nerve gas strikes.
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#19 J.Jence

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Posted 26 December 2002 - 06:19 PM

Thanks Kai-petri

#20 Kai-Petri

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 09:32 AM

V-3

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v3.htm

A 20mm prototype was built at a test site at Misdroy (Miedzyzdroje), Poland and successfully demonstrated in April-May 1943. Hitler was persuaded that this could be a third terror weapon to supplement the V-1 and V-2. Overruling the German military, he ordered fifty of the guns to be built in concrete bunkers in France in order to bombard London. The first installation of five guns was to be built 165 km from London at Mimoyecques, near Calais, under Operation Wiese. The superguns were built at a fixed angle into a 30 m chalk hill, covered by a 5.2 m thick protective concrete dome. Each 140 m long cannon was capable of delivering a 150 mm / 140 kg shell on London.

Hundreds of slave workers began construction in September 1943 by sinking an initial tunnel 30 m below the hill's surface into the chalk. French Resistance informed the Allies of the new effort almost immediately. Bombing raids to destroy the site began two months later. However the bunker proved impervious to Allied bombs, even 5400 kg Tallboy penetrator weapons. The weapons were nearing completion when, on 6 July 1944, three Tallboys happened to make it through the gun shaft openings. They penetrated 30 m to the first level of the complex and exploded, killing dozens of workers. Work on the complex stopped at this point.

The Allies were unaware of this success and searched for new methods to destroy Mimoyecques and other German bunker sites. Under Project Aphrodite (USAAF) and Operation Anvil (USN) radio-controlled, television-guided B-17 or PB4Y (B-24) bombers crammed with ten tonnes of explosives were to be flown by a crew near to the target. The pilot and co-pilot would then bail out while an accompanying aircraft guided the missile to a precision strike. This approach was abandoned in August 1944 after a total lack of success and several crew fatalities (including Joseph P Kennedy, Jr, elder brother of the future president).

By the end of August the Germans completely abandoned the complex in the face of the advancing British forces. Two short-length (45 m long) V-3's were built at Antwerp and Luxembourg in support of the Ardennes offensive in December 1944. These were found to be unreliable and only a few shots were fired without known effect. The British dynamited the Mimoyecques complex on 9 May 1945


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A V-3 projectile

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A V-3 installation

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A V-3 prototype
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#21 Kai-Petri

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Posted 18 January 2003 - 08:17 PM

The place to go to for V3 complex

Mimoyecques

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One of the B-24 pilots was Joseph Kennedy, brother of John F Kennedy. He died during the attack of this complex August 12, 1944.


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www.atlantikwall.net/related_v3.htm
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#22 Sniper

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Posted 19 January 2003 - 03:48 AM

It's interesting to note that after the British had bombed the V3 site at Mimoyecques, the German engineers, after examining the damage decided that the site could not be repaired and should be abandoned, but, when the British engineers examined the site after it's capture, they concluded that it could be repaired and eventually put into operation, hence they decided to blow it up.

Since the Germans had been pushed well back at this stage, did the British fear that the French might gain control of the site and use it to bombard London, sometime in the future????? :D :D :D
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#23 Stefan

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Posted 19 January 2003 - 10:07 PM

Here is a little factoid that may be of interest, my mates grandfather was an officer in the RE, he arrived in France and was sent to calais to look at a German bunker/weapon site that no one could quite identify. Well he went and found a whole load of pipes, they had no clue as to what it could be and reported something about drainage with a footnote that it could be a weapon. Apparently he has a photograph of him standing on a load of the segments after some of them had been dismantled.
Just a little thing you may be interested in.
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#24 MRTODD27

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 12:44 PM

Hochdruckpumpe (High Pressure Pump) was the cover name for a German super-long-range cannon designed to fire across the English Channel into the Greater London area. The cannon's configuration and layout also provided nicknames like "Busy Lizzie" and "The Millipede".

The theory behind the mechanism of the cannon was that a fin-stabilized shell would be loaded into the breech, together with the appropriate propelling charge. Additional charges would be added into the auxiliary chambers. The initial charge would be ignited and start the shell soaring up the bore. As it passed the auxiliary chambers additional charges would be fired to produce extra gas and thrust to boost the speed of the shell. With all these additional boosts, the shell would leave the muzzle at a very high velocity -- somewhere around 1,524m/sec was projected. The shell would be hauled into the stratosphere, where the thin air offered less air resistance and would permit the projectile to reach a range of about 280km.

Hitler had wished to make the cannon his "V-3" Vengeance Weapon. However, only two shortened versions of the gun were built and they were hurriedly thrown into use during the Ardennes Offensive in December 1944. One or two shots were fired without documented result, and the guns were blown up and abandoned afterwards. Fragments and pieces of the experimental guns are said to be still in existence on the Baltic Coast.

http://www.geocities...n/supergun.html

Wasserfall (Waterfall) was a German radio-controlled supersonic guided missile for anti-aircraft purpose. It was designed to meet a demand for a missile that would intercept hostile aircraft flying at 19,812maltitude at 880km/h and at ranges up to 48km from the launch site. This specification was highly advanced for the 1940s and was not achieved by any major combat aircraft in the war. The intention was to position batteries of these missiles to defend population centers, and about 200 batteries would be needed to cover Germany.
Work and research were started at the Peenemünde Research Station in 1942, and the design borrowed many concepts from the A-4 missile. The first launching tests took place across the Baltic in February 1944, and an altitude of 7010m was reached by the rocket. Seven more prototypes were made and fired by July 1944. Research and development were terminated in February 1945. Some sources have suggested that several of the trial missiles were actually deployed against Allied aircraft. However, there is no evidence to support this claim.
The missle weighed 3545kg at takeoff, and contained a 306kg warhead of high explosive armed with a proximity fuze. Wasserfall would have been a powerful and fearsome addition to Germany's air defenses if only more were produced on time.

Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-1 (Fritz X, SD 1400)
The sudden but arranged capitulation of the Italian fleet to the Allies on 9 September 1943 spurred the Germans to take quick actions against their former ally. The battleship Italia was damaged and Roma sunk as victims of a new type of air-to-surface weapon, the Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-1 or Fritz X. It was a free-falling bomb guided by the parent aircraft. Usually it was dropped at an altitude of about 6,000m; by the time of detonation it would have had gained a velocity close to that of sound.
The control apparatus comprised of electromagnetically operated spoilers activated in sympathy with radio signals from the parent aircraft (often a Dornier Do 217). After dropping the Fritz X, the airplane would have its motors throttled back and be flown to a higher altitude directly above the target, thus enabling the observer to guide the missile with a conventional Lofte 7 bombsight. Direct wire-link control using transmission lines that were 8km long was also possible. However, it was later abandoned for economic reasons.

Rheintochter (Rhine Daughter)
The famous and versatile Rheinmetall-Borsig company developed the Rheintochter ground-to-air missile from 1942 onwards. The first experimental launching tests began in August 1943, and 82 had been fired and tested by 5 January 1945. Only four out of those 82 had failed. The propulsion mechanism included a motor driven by solid fuel, and a solid booster unit for initial take-off. Like the Schmetterling missile, the Rheintochter was guided through radio command, and tracked visually by meand of flare attached to the wings and fins. The warhead composed of 136kg of high explosive and was armed by a "Kranich" acoustic proximity fuze, like the X-4. The design altitude of the original Rheintochter was 8000 meters, but the RLM rejected the design, requesting more altitude from the missile. The power system was then revised to employ solid or liquid fuels, and the booster rockets were placed outside the missile. It was also designed to be launched from an immovable launch site in a pit. This new version came to known as the Rheintochter 3, and production began in May 1944. Six had been built and fired by January 1945, but imperfection still plagued the control system. Development and thus production was canceled on 6 February 1945, as it became clear that the missile was not likely to be ready in time to have a significant impact on fate of the Reich.

http://www.geocities...der/wonder.html



Hi, I have a very interesting story about a couple of things.. if anyone wants to hear more or help out, please feel free to ask and share your knowledge to the best that you can. Also if anyone can speak German? This would be very useful perhaps. Anyone know what Der riese in German means, Wounderwaffle gun? DG & DG2 guns? The astroid that hit...?

#25 MRTODD27

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:18 PM

Aliens, zombies, time travel, wounder weapon in Germany?




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