Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The Frank.


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:20 AM

Some Americans called it Frankenstein as it was a real handful in combat. Scale aviation modeler has one on its cover & an article. Author claims it could outaccellerate, outclimb & breakoff combat against 'any' US figter. He considered it best fighter of WW2. Came with armor plate, self sealing fuel tanks. Later ones had direct injection.

#2 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 04:26 AM

The Ki-84 proved faster than the P-51D Mustang and the P-47D Thunderbolt at all but the highest altitudes. At medium altitudes, the FRANK was so fast that it was essentially immune from interception. The climb rate was exceptionally good, 16,400 feet being attained in 5 minutes 54 seconds, which was superior to that of any opposing Allied fighters.

496 for dive speed. Not so great, but 45 vintage ones might've been better.Dunno.

#3 T. A. Gardner

T. A. Gardner

    Genuine Chief

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,855 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 04:31 AM

The Ki 84 Hayate was a very good Japanese fighter. Although plagued by poor workmanship due to the war situation in Japan it could definitely hold its own against the best US fighters of the late war period.
Out accelerate? Possibly but usually not. The Hayate's engine had serious problems developing full power for a large number of reasons including:
Poor fuel pump pressure development and inconsistant fuel delivery.
Cracking of the exhaust manifold
Cylinder head failures and cracking

Climb? The Ki 84 outclimbs late model P-47s slightly. It is about equal to the P-51.

Break off combat? Not likely. Under most conditions the Ki 84 is anywhere up to 50 knots slower than late war US fighters. It also has less range. High altitude performance in particular suffers, particularly above 25,000 feet. This last problem is endemic of Japanese aircraft due to lack of good turbo / super-charging systems.
Against USN aircraft the Ki 84 might have more of a chance to break contact.
Personally, I think that Kawanishi's N1K2-J Shiden Kai fighter is better. In one rather spectacular dogfight one of these fighters flown by Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd kokutai took on tweleve (12) F6F Hellcats shooting down 4 and fighting the rest to a draw forcing them to break contact. Like the Ki 84 the N1K2 suffered a big performance drop above 25,000 feet or so.

#4 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 04:36 AM

"Climb? The Ki 84 outclimbs late model P-47s slightly. It is about equal to the P-51.

Break off combat? Not likely. Under most conditions the Ki 84 is anywhere up to 50 knots slower than late war US fighters."

Much superior to Mustang in climb. & faster than 47 & Stang at most altitudes, execpt up high where most pacific combats did not take place.


Frank climb,Rate of climb: 19.25 m/s (3,790 ft/min)

Mustang D 3200 ft per min.

#5 T. A. Gardner

T. A. Gardner

    Genuine Chief

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,855 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 04:41 AM

That's not what Tactical Air Intelligence Center Manual #1 Japanese Aircraft (OpNav-16-VT#301) dated March 1945 says. But, what do the British and American intelligence experts of the period know having acutal examples to test?

#6 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 04:43 AM

They know the Frank outclimbed & outmanoevered Mustang & P-47.


Direct injection the likely suspect for outacceleration.

Much of its superlative all-round performance stemmed from its extremely advanced direct-injection engine, the Army's first version of the Navy NK9A.

#7 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 04:48 AM

Frank range.

Range on internal fuel 1,025 miles (1,650 kilometres)
Range with 98-gallon drop tanks 1,815 miles (2,920 kilometres)

Mustang B 730 miles range

Mustang D

Combat range: 950 miles

Operation range with drop tanks: 1300 miles


Less range??

#8 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 04:55 AM

Wilkepedia shows this for Stang D, better, but still less than Frank.

Range: 1,650 mi (2,655 km) with external tanks


The Frank had its technical problems no doubt, but material shortages account for most of it, not bad engineering or poor design.

#9 Ali Morshead

Ali Morshead

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 393 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 10:13 AM

Looking at the Ki-84 Hayate, seems to be a competent fighter/fighter bomber.

Cant see how it 's better tha the P-51D, though like all aircraft in the hands of experts it is possible that they outfought them, and other Allied fighters, from time to time.

But I've got a max rangeat 1347miles for the Ki-84-1a and 2080 miles for the P-51D. Top speed of 392mph v 437mph for the P-51D. Th P-47N could also travel around 2000 miles and had a top speed of 467mph
Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

#10 chocapic

chocapic

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 10:16 AM

To TA : are you refering to the Georges ? If it's the case I also agree it was the best Japanese fighter.

But I think the Ki-84 was much more reliable than any other Japanese late war fighter like Ki-100 or the Georges, and did not suffered much teething problems although they indeed often had some fuel pressure failures (and shared the fragile "legs" of the Georges).

It was very well armored, which was a big step forward for Japanese design.

It was used in numbers and had good combat accounts, thanks to high performance, strong guns and good maneuverability which was important in the Japanese way of dogfighting and also given the poor average training of late war Japanese pilots. Production standards obviously collapsed overtime under the US air raids pressure.

Overall it is very easy to have a good idea of its performance and horizontal maneuverability : pretty much the same as the F4U Corsair at all altitudes, which means faster than the Hellcat, much more maneuverable than P47 and P 51 (late D versions), as fast as the P47 under 5-6000m, slower than the P51, especialy at medium and high alt and than the P47 above 5-6000m.

#11 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 10:04 PM

Actually faster than Mustang at medium altitudes according to American tests. Doubt Corsair had similiar horizontal manoeuverability to Frank.

Mustang had better dive & better high altitude performance, but again most pacific theater combats were not high altitude except B-29 raids. So Mustangs high altitude performance has to weighed with that in mind.

So with better accelaration & climb as well as manoeuverability & superior power to weight ratio by a mile, one can make the claim it was better than Mustang. Better range to boot.

P-47 M too little numbers & too late in war to make fair comparison. Not sure on 47 N.

#12 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 07 December 2006 - 10:11 PM

The N was a very late war fighter, not 44 vintage. one would compare it with Frank II and other 45 designs, Reppo? Jets & such.

The P-47N was designed for very long range operations in the Pacific escorting B-29s. A P-47N fully loaded with 5" HVAR rockets, bombs and up to 710 gallons of fuel in external tanks weighted nearly 21,000 lbs., heavier than any other single engine fighter of World War II. The P-47N on display was built in 1945 and is painted in the colors of 1st. Lt. Oscar Perdomo of the 507th Fighter Group in the Pacific during the final days of World War II. Perdomo shot down five Japanese aircraft on the last day of WWII making him the last "Ace in a Day" of WWII.

Frank II

This version actually received several designations, but in order to prevent confusion with the Ki-84-Ib and Ki-84-Ic (depending on armament), the Ki-84-II designation or even Hayate KAI was used.
Previous versions suffered from sudden fuel pressure loss, and the problem was only solved with a development of the Ha-45 21 that had low-pressure fule injection. This version, designated Ha-45 23, was never produced in the numbers of it's predecessor, because the plant where it was built had been bombed, and was replaced to an underground installation.
The Ki-84-II was built with either one of the following poerplants: Nakajima Ha-45 21, Nakajima Ha-45 25 or Nakajima Ha-45 23 radials.
Another new feature was the wooden rear fuselage, certain fittings and modified wingtips. Shortages of aluminium prompted the Japanese to resort to wooden parts in stead.

Here is some comment on the fowler flaps on Frank. Another interesting feature I'd like to know more about.

About maneuverability, though Ki-84 had "Butterfly-Type" Fowler Combat Flap, it had heavy nose especially when fowler flaps are full open. In TnB, it would be disadvantage against N1K2 (btw USA reported Ki-84 out-maneuvered Spitfire).

#13 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 08 December 2006 - 05:28 AM

Frank & George had same power plant, dunno which was better. Both had great armament. Ib & Ic had 4 cannon, 2 machine guns.

Perhaps it comes down to which was more robust. Frank was not as robust as allied types & could not handle as heavy of G's.

#14 chocapic

chocapic

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 08 December 2006 - 11:25 AM

@ chrome :

- I forgot to mention my comparisons above with P47 are based on late D versions, not N versions,

- P51D was faster at any alt, except a in a very small fork (due to supercharger stage switch I guess-to be checked) in the med-high alt. If Ki-84 used war emergency power, the P51D was still faster, but by a smaller margin (I'm talking about Ki-84 Ia using standard Japanese fuel). Of course, this can vary according to some factor like how much fuel is carried etc etc.
BTW it is a widespread myth that P-51 was a snail at low alt.


- Ki-84Ia and F4U1-D turned just the same (low alt that is) up to 350 kph, at faster speeds, Ki-84 turned very slightly better but the margin is so small it's not worth mentionning. It's in the clean configuration, with flaps down, the Ki-84 took the upper hand and the more the flaps are down, the better is the Ki-84 compared to the F-4 (but I doubt a late war corsair pilot would follow in a furball dogfight ;) )

- climb rate : (I mean max rate of climb) the Ki-84 climbs pretty much the same as the above corsair, at all alts, at all alts, especialy med and high alt, it had a better max climbrate than the P-51D, and better than the P47D (late versions) up to 8.000m.

- I'll compare with the Georges later on.

#15 Seadog

Seadog

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 355 posts

Posted 08 December 2006 - 05:29 PM

Personally, I felt that when the 'Tony' was flying right, it was one of their best fighters. But the V-engine was so trouble prone, the radial engine was put in to make the 100
Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

#16 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 08 December 2006 - 11:23 PM

Tony was cool no doubt, there are even reports from P-38 vets of being outdived by Tony's over new Guinea. & Got your point Choc, it's just that it doesn't jive with Us tests done after the war. Frank faster at medium altitude than 47 & Mustang D.

Of course Japanese gas & oil were not of same quality as US, so that has to figured in, but bench test, Frank is faster.

#17 TA152

TA152

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,423 posts

Posted 09 December 2006 - 02:06 PM

There are three nice paintings of one at this site,

http://www.ne.jp/asa...-pln/FR047.html
I need a bailout of only $500,000

#18 chocapic

chocapic

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 11 December 2006 - 10:12 AM

@ Chrome : I heard about this test, they used US fuel in the Frank , which was very different from Japanese fuel, and probably pushed the plane beyond its specifications.

About this test, I find no data about low and medium altitude speed, only a 427 mph at 20.000 feet, and neither I know if the tested Frank was a Ia version and what engine it carried.
Have you got a link toward a comprehensive report of this test, especialy the speed reached by the Frank at low or medium alt ?

Because 20.000 feet is not a low altitude and it's right into the altitude fork where the P-51D (D-20) had a weakness due to supercharging staging (I believe) and was the very peak of the Ki-84Ia top speed, therefore I won't draw conclusion on this sole altitude.

Here we go

Altitude / P 51D20 speed / Ki84 Ia speed(meters / kph – metric system rules ! ) : no war emergency power

1000 560 / 520
2000 605 / 550
3000 630 / 560
4000 655 / 570
5000 645 / 600
6000 630 / 630
7000 650 / 645
8000 680 / 630

Now, let's tighten the fork to the only altitude range where the Ki-84Ia (war conditions) could compete with the P51-D, the 5.000 – 8.000 m range, at "all out" speed (which means "overboost", war emergency power etc etc)

5.000 665 / 660
6.000 660 / 685
7.000 690 / 680
8.000 700 / 670

As you can see, these numbers are pretty much on par with the above mentionned bench, rating the Frank at 427 mph @ 20.000 ft, but still the P-51D is faster at low alt (below 3.000m and medium alt (3.000 – 6.000 m).

#19 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 13 December 2006 - 06:36 AM

Yes that test showed Frank 2 mph faster than Stang & 22 mph faster than 47 at 20.000 ft. Frank's performance diminished at higher altitudes.

"In fact, the "Hayate" was good enough to best the P-51B and D Mustangs operated by the 23rd Fighter Group, and managed to establish air superiority over China during the last Japanese offensive of the war that fall."


Pretty much every site on the Frank echoes this...

The Frank has a 1900 horsepower Homare engine in an airframe more than one ton lighter than the Corsair. This gives the Frank excellent speed - faster than even the Mustang at low altitudes

http://home.nycap.rr...rrior/KI84.html

It's lightweight is another factor to weight in on the acceleration issue.

#20 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 13 December 2006 - 06:47 AM

It entered combat with the 22nd Sentai at Hankow, China in August 1944, where it proved costly to the U.S. 14th Air Force, and the 23rd Fighter Group in particular. Even with the Americans now equipped with the P-51B and P-51D Mustang instead of their older P-40s, pilot quality was the deciding factor in a combat. While aces like Charles Older, Deputy Commander of the 23rd Fighter Group could score impressively, such as when he shot down four Ki.84s at low altitude in a surprise strike at Hankow that September - this was a one-time only event when he managed to surprise the four fighters shortly after takeoff, catching them at a disadvantage. Older related to this writer in an interview in 2002 that he considered the Ki.84 to be the best Japanese fighter of the war, and the most dangerous opponent he flew against. Other American pilots learned this to their cost, as the Japanese Army Air Force regained a lost advantage during the Japanese Army’s final China offensive in the Fall of 1944.

http://www.j-aircraf...erformance data

There are a few differing views on Franks speed covered here.


I have a copy of a translation of a captured document (hand written notes) of unknown reliability which indicates two maximum speeds for the Ki 84-1 (Light) and Ki 84-1 (Improved). The two speeds apparently relate to the Ha 45 rating of 2000 hp at 1500 meters and 1800hp at 6000 meters.

Ki 84-1 (Light) 664 kph (=412 mph) and 693 kph (=430 mph)

Ki 84-1 (Improved) 658 kph (=409 mph) and 688 kph (=427 mph).

Fully equiped wgt of Light = 3576 kg; Improved = 3858 kg


During the war TAIC rated Ki 84's max speed at 422 mph.

There are many instances when Japanese "official" figures are less than US tests and observed combat performance.

#21 chocapic

chocapic

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 13 December 2006 - 12:57 PM

664 kph @ 1500 m !

This has to be a joke.

this is (no war emercency power or overboost):

- about 60+ kph faster than the P51D20 or the P 63 kingcobra, Yak3, Yak 9U, La-7

- more or less 100 kph faster than the Bf 109K or FW 190D, or Spit IX (with 25 lbs boost), or Tempest Mk V

- even at war emergency power, the above planes can't compete and are in most of the case far behind


I know one has to makes some guesstimations about Japanese planes performance, but I consider 664 kph @ 1500 m is a ridiculous claim.

And don't give too much credit to this US bench, otherwise, you'll have to give also credit to the RAF bench which had for result the seafire LIII being faster than the Ki-84 on the deck (I stillo wonder in what shape was the Frank tested by the RAF :D )

#22 TA152

TA152

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,423 posts

Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:33 AM

Do you have any good sources on how many allied aircraft the Frank shot down during the war and where the Japanese stationed them ?
I need a bailout of only $500,000

#23 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 16 December 2006 - 02:19 AM

Only thing I've seen is that it was based in China & Phillipines. Ran rings around the 14th airforce so the story goes.

I have a vague recollection of a Japanese pilot who had 13-14 Mustangs in his bag. But Japanese scores are hardest of all to verify.

#24 chromeboomerang

chromeboomerang

    Dishonorably Discharged

  • Dishonorably Discharged
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts

Posted 16 December 2006 - 06:40 AM

Sasaki, 3 B-29's in a night flying his Frank.

http://www.aircraftr...rec/gal4226.htm

& just to add to the confusion, it seems the Frank had 4 powerplants.

Ki.84-I Hayate "Frank"


TYPE:
Single engine fighter
CREW:
One
ENGINE:
The following engines were used by the Ki.84-I as availability permitted:
Ha-45-11, rated at 1,800hp for take-off and 1,650hp at 6,560ft.
Ha-45-12, rated at 1,925hp for take-off and 1,670hp at 7,875ft.
Ha-45-21, rated at 1,990hp for take-off and 1,850hp at 5,740ft.
Ha-45-23, rated at 1,900hp for take-off and 1,670hp at 4,725ft.
DIMENTIONS:

#25 TA152

TA152

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,423 posts

Posted 16 December 2006 - 06:51 PM

That story peaked my interest in ISAMU SASAKI. Do you know what all happened to him after the war ?
I need a bailout of only $500,000




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users