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CANNON..The Second World War Aircraft Gun


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#1 sniper1946

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 07:11 PM

having found out the molins 57mm cannon had serious reloading issues, due to air passing down the barrel, causing jamming, and unable to fire more than 2-3 rounds? did not the luftwaffe suffer anything similar? when using cannons?

#2 Poppy

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:03 AM

Who/ what used the molins 57mm? Seems like an odd number.Used for anti ship? Personnel ?... Air pressure causing problems with jamming? Interesting. I'd like to read up on that. I can see G's causing problems.

#3 Erich

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:27 AM

Ray yes there were feeding problems no so much with the 2cm cannons but with the Mk 108 at first, but also the 3.7 and 5cm cannon used in the bomber destroyer versions in the Bf 110G and Me 410 variants as examples.
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#4 sniper1946

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:38 AM

Who/ what used the molins 57mm? Seems like an odd number.Used for anti ship? Personnel ?... Air pressure causing problems with jamming? Interesting. I'd like to read up on that. I can see G's causing problems.

Posted Image

the mosquito molins, poppy...see my "mossie day out" thread ..ray.:)
WWII Mossie open day, many pilots attended, location, salisbury hall, london colney... (Posted Image 1 2)
sniper1946

Edited by sniper1946, 13 July 2010 - 06:54 AM.


#5 sniper1946

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:40 AM

Ray yes there were feeding problems no so much with the 2cm cannons but with the Mk 108 at first, but also the 3.7 and 5cm cannon used in the bomber destroyer versions in the Bf 110G and Me 410 variants as examples.

were the principles of reloading similar then! or very different to the molins rack loading version, Erich..

#6 Erich

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:38 PM

rack and roll - belt fed and then, terrible to point out that jams had of course to be manned by hand if possible. in twin engine units the radio op/rear gunner did this, though most likely it was just left and the pilot used the forward 2cm cannons repairs so to speak could then be done by the black men on the ground
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#7 sniper1946

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:44 PM

could the same be done in the mossie, enough room I mean..but then time is of the essence I suppose..

#8 Erich

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:50 PM

not sure really,, ,,,, ..... would imagine in the combat experience time would not be allowed nor the ease and patience to "kick the gun" into motion by a secondary crew-member.
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#9 sniper1946

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:58 PM

time would'nt allow for unjamming in the heat of battle, and the machine guns would be getting pretty active I would think..I bet the expletives index went up a bit? lol..

#10 Gromit801

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 06:29 PM

Who/ what used the molins 57mm? Seems like an odd number.Used for anti ship? Personnel ?... Air pressure causing problems with jamming? Interesting. I'd like to read up on that. I can see G's causing problems.


The 57mm was the British 6-pdr Antitank gun. Great for anti-shipping and bunkers.
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#11 sniper1946

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 08:30 PM

The 57mm was the British 6-pdr Antitank gun. Great for anti-shipping and bunkers.

apart from reloading issues gromit..

#12 Martin Bull

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 05:57 AM

I think the fairest comparison with the Molins would be the 75mm mounted in the nose of some B-25s, and possibly the 50mm in one or two Me262s....

The Molins feed was gravity-assisted and Des Curtis' book on 618 Squadron describes the clamking and grinding noises after firing, as the machinery re-loaded for the next shot ( very low-tech ! ;) ). Wasn't aware of the air-pressure issues, I must admit.

I think that most WWII aircraft cannon suffered from feed problems at some stage ( certainly the British Hispano in the Battle of Britain did, the pilots reverted to .303s at their own request ). When you think of the cramped conditions in those aircraft, it's amazing that the armaments designers achieved what they did......
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#13 sniper1946

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 06:32 AM

thanks for that extra info, martin. apreciated, ray..

#14 Poppy

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 01:48 PM

I looked at the full pic of the Molins and wondered about that feed mechanism. How many rounds would it hold? Maybe a large spring could have helped feed ammo....To hear anyone would request a .303 rather than an explosive cannon round says a lot.

#15 sniper1946

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:05 PM

I looked at the full pic of the Molins and wondered about that feed mechanism. How many rounds would it hold? Maybe a large spring could have helped feed ammo....To hear anyone would request a .303 rather than an explosive cannon round says a lot.


I doubt that it would ahve made any difference poppy, with that amount of pressure forced thro the barrel...
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http://www.ww2f.com/...icons/icon1.gif Re: WWII Mossie open day, many pilots attended, location, salisbury hall, london colney...
http://www.thejackal...ii/MolinsA1.jpg

#16 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:06 PM

Interesting cannon, Here is an impressiv view onto the nose of an B25 with a 75mm cannon. Picture taken from: Waffen Revue Nr. 46.

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#17 Poppy

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 02:08 AM



#18 Fred Wilson

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:40 PM

My request is for someone to dissect the various kinds of Cannon Shells / Incendiary Shells / Bullets produced during WW2
and describe the purpose of these designs versus the various types of bullets used in air to air and air to ground warfare.

RAF pilots complained at length about the poor effect of bullets during the early stages of the war, while waxing lyrical about the effectiveness of cannon in dealing with thin skinned aircraft.
- noting particularly their claims of Luftwaffe superiority in this technology.

_______________

Artillery Cannons (with higher muzzle projectile velocity resulting from 20 calibers barrel lengths) have superior range than howitzers
- but its lower maximum elevation and flatter trajectory restricts its use to unobstructed terrain.

Edited by Fred Wilson, 19 April 2012 - 01:18 AM.

Stepson of Arthur Ellison Sovereign:
RCAF Navigator: Lancasters and Wellingtons,
Bomber Command, WW2
http://www.members.s...ereign/Art.html

Named after Fred Sutherland of the Dambusters.

 

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#19 Takao

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:30 AM

You mean something like this: The WWII Fighter Gun Debate: Gun Tables
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#20 Fred Wilson

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:07 AM

First class response! txn Takao!
I have Google Searched for decades, worn out my welcome at the local Library Help Desk looking for this. Terrific!

PS:
The "Like" and "Salute" Buttons seem to have disappeared today - replaced by the "Add to this person's Reputation" which I have not noticed / seen for years...
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Mosquito Cannon, Gun camera and Rocket Projectile footage.
Man those 6 pounder Cannon shells were just massive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QndLmfp6Y5w

Edited by Fred Wilson, 19 April 2012 - 01:16 AM.

Stepson of Arthur Ellison Sovereign:
RCAF Navigator: Lancasters and Wellingtons,
Bomber Command, WW2
http://www.members.s...ereign/Art.html

Named after Fred Sutherland of the Dambusters.

 

"Apple Pie without cheese is like a kiss without a squeeze."

A little quip from the nicest person I have ever known: My Dad.


#21 TiredOldSoldier

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:19 AM

If you want to dig deeper try to get hold of a copy of Flying Guns WW2 by Emmanuel Gustin (the author of that page) and Tony Williams , possibly not the definitive book on WW2 aircraft armament (it just scratches the surface on turrets and sights) but by far the best reference I've seen so far on the gun themseves, beware that a lot of the info in it is also available on the author's web sites for free, but IMO the book is still worth reading.
Co-author Tony Williams also has a site and there are some very nice links there too.
BOOKS BY ANTHONY G WILLIAMS

Edited by TiredOldSoldier, 19 April 2012 - 06:24 AM.

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#22 Fred Wilson

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:57 AM

Infantry Weapons and their Effects

 


Stepson of Arthur Ellison Sovereign:
RCAF Navigator: Lancasters and Wellingtons,
Bomber Command, WW2
http://www.members.s...ereign/Art.html

Named after Fred Sutherland of the Dambusters.

 

"Apple Pie without cheese is like a kiss without a squeeze."

A little quip from the nicest person I have ever known: My Dad.


#23 Fred Wilson

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:02 PM

From: http://ww2talk.com/f...13-help-needed/

 

Firing the Hispano-Suiza cannon. Cor Blimey... I would not like to be on the receiving end of this!

Unbelievably good video. The last few seconds of sound bite will be with me for decades...

 

Tnx to everyone who restores and maintain all these important pieces of history! :S!

 


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Stepson of Arthur Ellison Sovereign:
RCAF Navigator: Lancasters and Wellingtons,
Bomber Command, WW2
http://www.members.s...ereign/Art.html

Named after Fred Sutherland of the Dambusters.

 

"Apple Pie without cheese is like a kiss without a squeeze."

A little quip from the nicest person I have ever known: My Dad.


#24 Martin Bull

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:46 AM

That is a stunning clip, Fred. The word 'awesome' is totally devalued these days but certainly applies in this case.

 

I've always felt that the 'rocket-firing' aspect of the Typhoon, for instance, is over-rated. Just imagine being shot up in Normandy by a Squadron of them just with their cannon......


"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

#25 Sheldrake

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:48 AM

The 57mm gun used in the Mosquito mk XVIII was intended for anti shipping use. It added an auto loader to the 6Pdr (57mm) anti tank gun.  There were no comparable British automatic weapons of that calibre on land or at sea.  

 

I don't think it was easy to design the loading mechanism and the Tsetse 57mm installation seemed to work well.  Looking at the chapter on Coastal command Mosquitos in my big book about the Mosquito (Sharp and Bowyer) the type was in use for just over a year and involved in dozens of anti shipping and anti-submarine strikes over the bay of Biscay and the Norwegian coast.  I could only find two references to attacks being terminated through stoppages - and a few of Mosquito Mk XVIII air to air kills.   It is superseded by the RP armed mosquito - probably because RP offers less risks to the aircrew who can engage from much further away.

 

The RAF had struggled to fit the 20mm Hispano Cannon into the Spitfire in 1940, feed problems being the reason. The job was given to the Molins Company (Lincolnshire?) which had no prior experience of building aircraft weapons, but were very well known for building cigarette vending machines. The MAP request to de Havilland to fit a 57mm gun was issued in mid march and the weapon tested on the butts in a mosquito nose on 29th April 1943. The aircraft was issued in September the same year.    

 

The 57mm gun weighted 1,800 lb and the firing stresses were of the order of 8,000 lb.  This wasn't the only big gun option considered.  De Havilland seriously looked at fitting a 3.7"" AA gun into a mosquito with armour as a ground attack aircraft.  

 






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