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D0 355 delayed 2years?!

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by chromeboomerang, Dec 22, 2006.

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  1. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    Rare color photographs of Dornier DO-335


    Prior to and throughout World War II German ingenuity created one outstanding aircraft after another for the German Luftwaffe. The Dornier Do-335 "Arrow" or Pheil as the Germans called it was no exception and was arguably the best piston aircraft of the time. The man behind it was Claude Dornier who took out a patent on his first push-pull design in 1937.
    Early in 1942 the German Army was doing well and the politicians felt no need for such a radical airplane. By 1943 however, the tide was turning against the German Army and the order was finally given to build the Arrow. In just nine months the first prototype was built. The first flight was in Autumn of 1943. The flight testing phase went very well. The plane flew and handled better than expected. There were no structural problems at all, and only one crash occurred due to an overheated engine which caught fire. The first production version, the A-1 was delivered in November 1944. Luckily too few and too late to help the Third Reich. The Arrows armament included two fuselage mounted 20mm cannons, two wing mounted 15mm cannons, and if that weren't enough a 30mm engine mounted cannon. If production had been expedited from the start this heavily armed plane would have played serious havoc with the Allied bombing missions.
    A total of ninety aircraft were rolled out including prototypes, test planes, and trainers. Due to critical delays in materials (no doubt caused in part by guys like Skip and his buddies in the 386th Bomb Group) a mere total of thirty-eight production Do-355's were delivered to the Luftwaffe.
    The Arrow had a number of unusual distinctions. It was the only military aircraft of the time to have a push-pull powerplant/airframe. It was one of the few aircraft of WWII to have an ejection seat. It was the only aircraft that had explosive bolts in the rear fuselage designed to separate the tail section in order to facilitate a successful bail-out if necessary. It was also the fastest piston powered aircraft, with a maximum speed of 417 mph at an altitude of 26,000 feet. Nothing in the Allied inventory could catch it. The ingenious German engineers who designed it envisioned it being a deadly figher, capable of shooting down invading B-17's with ease. Fortunetly (for the Allies), Hitler himself, demanded that the Arrow be redesigned for a bombing role which stalled the program for almost two years. This prevented the Arrow from reaching it full potential as early as 1944.
    To the best of my knowledge the pictures on this page are the best photographs of the Arrow on the internet. Many thanks to photographer Gary Hethcoat.
    Click here if you are unable to download or view the large pictures.
     
  2. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    I would love to see the pictures but the links did not show up in your post. :(
     
  3. Shadow Master

    Shadow Master Member

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    Your pic links didn't work for me. Here are some.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    This is the first Dornier I read about, the Dornier Do X.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    The Dornier 335 was not the only push-pull military aircraft of the period. There is the Fokker D XXIII.
    This aircraft first flew in June 1939. It was also the first fighter aircraft with a nose wheel undercarriage. Although it only flew on a pair of 540 hp Walter Sagitta engines it obtained a speed of 326 mph in flight. A Merlin or DB 601 version was proposed for production at an anticipated speed of 385mph. The sole prototype was destroyed during the German invasion of the Netherlands in May 1940.
    As for fastest. Officially for the period this still goes to the US XP-47J at 504 mph. And, there were several late war production aircraft every bit as fast or faster than the 335. These include: The Hawker Fury, Ta 152, P-51F and H, P-47N, and XP-72 as a few examples.
     
  5. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    I believe the Fokker never entered service, therefore technically excluded. & 326 isn't much to be exited about. & the aircraft mentioned above are still open to debate as to whether they were indeed faster than the Arrow. XP-72 & P-51 H were not in the war, so as well technically excluded. Fury was a bit late too as I understand.


    Now, with the delay of this machine, it is very understandable why Galland was so frustrated with Goering & the dupes above who called the shots.

    http://www.squadron13.com/do335/DO335.htm

    Maximum speed: 413 mph (sustained), 477 mph (emergency boost)
    Service ceiling: 37,400 feet (A-1), 33,400 feet (A-6)
    Maximum range: 1280 miles, 2330 with external drop fuel tanks

    477,if that is the real number, is better than P-47-N or M.
     
  6. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    Fury is listed at 460 mph, not faster than 355. & it wasn't ready til 46.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Sea_Fury

    The original order to specification N.22/43 was reduced to 100 aircraft, and the Boulton-Paul agreement was cancelled. The first production model, the Sea Fury F X (Fighter, Mark X), flew in September 1946. Problems arose with damaged tailhooks during carrier landings; after modifications, the aircraft were approved for carrier landings in the spring of 1947.

    So this statement...

    "Nothing in the Allied inventory could catch it". would seem accurate.
     
  7. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    One can help but wonder had this machine along with the Dora, ( instead of UHU & ME 410 ), & a few Jets were available in 43 how the bomber situation would have turned out.
     
  8. chocapic

    chocapic Member

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    Quite an impressive plane !
    This plane is not a blueprint wonder, it really met expected performance and had no inherent flaw or serious problem preventing a mass production.

    I also have 477mph being its top speed at war emergency power.
     
  9. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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  10. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    I was reading up on Dornier and found out he designed this car in the mid 50's. I am not sure if I like it or not. It is different, but gas was cheaper back then and it did not sell well.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/z-ndapp-janus
     
  11. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    Cool. Yes the 355 had very little teething probs, & like I said, no wonder Galland hated his superiors. he thought the 109 should be shelved & 262's & 355's built.
     
  12. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    If we are going by this standard then the Do 335 is included too. Only 12 A-1 operational models were produced and none of those saw operational service. While about another dozen plus prototypes were produced these were prototypes not operational aircraft. So, either there were no push-pull fighters in service or the Fokker counts. I would also say that the Fokker had as much chance of entering regular service had Holland not fallen to the Germans as did the 335 whose appearance so late in the war along with the rise of jets was quickly becoming an operational oddity destined for a brief service life at best.
    On the Allied side, the aircraft I cited did not enter operational serivce during the war more because the Allies could afford to take their time introducing them or they felt these aircraft unnecessary to win a war already largely won. This should not exclude them from the speed discussion alone.
     
  13. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    Nope, Pierre Clostermann chased one in combat.

    & the war was not considered won even in early part of 44.

    So operational, it's Do 355, non op Xpj 47. The difference being the operational planes were brought up through all the testing & debugging & were combat ready. Getting a machine combat ready is more impressive than a one off prototype that may or may not perform well in combat. P 47 M had many bugs not yet worked out. 355 was a success. V-18 another example of a very fast plane that could not be built in numbers for combat use. Some might've made it, some not. MB5 could've been a success, don't know enough about it to say with certitude. XP 72 likely not. My neighbor worked for Lockheed 30 yrs said the prop vibration problem was never solved.


    A total of ninety aircraft were rolled out including prototypes, test planes, and trainers. Due to critical delays in materials a mere total of thirty-eight production Do-355's were delivered to the Luftwaffe.
     
  14. chocapic

    chocapic Member

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  15. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Pierre was in fantasy land as usual and never engaged a Do 335. the a/c were only in the testing stages by the testing unit and were left to rot on the grasslands of time in the Reich.

    I have a very interesting b/w photo of at least 6 Do 335's sitting at peace with other wrecked German a/c lying about. all pieces of garbage ready to be worked over into scrap metal
     
  16. chromeboomerang

    chromeboomerang New Member

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    Um, well he had the fastest piston machine in the Tempest & chased "something" all out & couln't catch it. It's common fare to berate him, but he was there & had more 1st hand experience than any of us. & it is possible he chased one being tested, ( hard to imagine misidentifying a plane with a prop in the tail! for heavens sake ). Some of his errors like the Me 209 & such were understandable as that was the rumor of the time, it wasn't just he that thought 209's were buzzing about. He did his job & deserves some respect.

    & great link Choc. It manoeuvered better than I thought it would. I figured it was well, like an arrow, good at going straight.

    [ 26. December 2006, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: chromeboomerang ]
     
  17. chocapic

    chocapic Member

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    This is what I found about the operational service life of the Do, there's pretty much nothing worth mentioning :

    The Do-335 was put into operational tests in fall 1944 in a task unit (Ekdo-335) .

    On october the 26th of 1944, the RLM warned the local flak of the new design.

    There are at least 3 registered losses : 24/12/44, ??/03/445 and ??/04/45, the reason are unknown (enemy, accident ??) except for the first which could have been lost to enemy fire, but there are no specific allied claims of a Do-335 being shot down.

    The Pfeil has been supposedly encountered twice, by Clostermann and by the 325th Fighter Group.

    On of the Ekdo-335's Do's had victory marks painted on it, but it's quite probable its pilot scored them before joining the unit.

    And yes, it was pretty maneuverable for a plane of its size and weight, it climbed like a rocket and turned more or less the same than the P47 at 400/450 kph and faster.

    I believe it was an excellent plane, most probably faster at low and maybe medium alt than any other piston engined fighter of the area. (I believe the lattest late/post-war P51 and P47 were more or less as fast at 7-8000m and above, but this has to be checked).

    Nevertheless, only a handfull of them ever flew and war ended before the conclusion of the promising operational tests, it's probable the op. tests would end as a success and the defects fixed, but we can only speculate as if it would then have successfully pass the trial of mass production and mass service use.
     
  18. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Aside from a claim by an Allied pilot that he chased one this hardly makes a case for the 335 being "operational" any more than that for the He 162 or many other rare late war German aircraft.
    A handful of prototypes and pre-production models being used by an experimental command or trials unit does not make the aircraft operational even if it is used occasionally in combat.
    Operational means in regular squadron service. This is something the Do 335 had not reached. But, in any case it is very clear that it was not the only push-pull fighter design of the war.
     
  19. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Chrome we disproved Pierre on at least three of his claims through his biographer, and Pierre just said oh well. he did not encounter the Do 335 period and it is doubtful any US pilot did either in any type of action. Recon yes, with the oversized propers sitting on their field

    My interest in this twin engine job stems from my research some 35 years ago on the two seat version and proposed silliness with the external aerials of the FuG 220d that were to be used. The thing was heavy enough, one reason why Kurt Welter dropped the idea of the twin seater for night fighter warfare and stuck with the 262 as he knew full well that was where combat in the air was taking the world ...... in time
     
  20. chocapic

    chocapic Member

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    Yes war ended before the end of the operational tests, and it was never delivered to an unit other than the test task unit.

    I thought the HE-162 went a little further and was sent to a regular unit.
     
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