Got Panzers? Panzer for buy?

Hey just out of curiosity, does anyone here have original or replica panzers for sale? Some specific models would be the Panzer MKIV, Tiger 1, Tiger 2, Elefant, Panther. And what are the values of such tanks? Thanks!

 

Start at c.£0.5M for tattier/wrecked examples of the more common types and work your way up.
Quite a long way up.

Reasonably intact survivors.
Tigers - 6 left.
Tiger Bs - c.8 left.
Elefant/Ferdinand - 2 left.
Panther - Maybe 30-odd?

Deep pockets?
Good luck...

~A

 

Most of the German WWII armor that hasn't already been snapped up by collectors and/or restorers appears to be in Eastern Europe, Bulgaria in particular; I can think of three or four "recently discovered" panzer hulks in Eastern Europe. I know that Bulgaria ended up with several panzer chassis of various makes and used them after the war as static defenses (go here for pictures). Most of the recent "finds" are hulks that have been dredged out of swamps and bogs on the Eastern Front (the MVTF Panther comes to mind). There have also been some T-34's recently dragged out of some Estonian swamps, but that's about it (go here, here, and here). At this point, anything that's been underwater for 65 years is going to be pretty much useless. Here's a T-34/85 in Poland that's been sold. Here's a good website for surviving tanks from WWII: The Shadock's website

 

Im not sure where youve seen these prices, but western military equipment is rather cheap. You can get many of them in good shape for less than $50k. You can get a working tank for $25k, but its probably a Sherman. Ive seen hellcats for cheap as well, and they are quite rare.
Ive seen working Mig-21s for $50k, and many many jets for under $250k, including F-86. The most expensive are the mustang and spitfire, which can be a million or two depending on the historical aspects. You can get aircraft like dive bombers for a fraction of that.

 

I haven't seen a WWII-era western military tank is working order for under $300k. I don't think you will find a Sherman for 25k, and I am relatively sure that you won't find a Hellcat anywhere near that price range. Soviet tanks are cheaper (mainly because of their availability), but will still be more than 25K - and their prices are going up now. You could maybe get a cold war era lightly-armoured tank like a AMX-13 or Abbot SPG for around that price from Europe, but am fairly sure any larger (let alone a WWII tank) will be much costlier.

If you know a Sherman or another WWII-era western APC for around $25K, let me know! It would look great in my garage next to my other military trucks.

 

This site has a good list of most of the major sellers.

Army Tanks For Sale

Alan's right - a sherman for $25k would be a real bargain. $250k is cheap.

 

The prices for post war T34/85s has gone through the roof - twenty years ago, at the time of the big auctions just after the collapse of the USSR they could be picked up for £5-10,000 for runners (I know of one that was bought as a birthday pressie for a ten year old kid to play in!) but now they do fetch £50,000 up.

Abbots are indeed cheap - but so at the minute are Chieftains, though that's well outside the OP's time frame of interest. There are several being advertised in the Uk classic vehicle press at the minute for £18,000! If the OP is interested in replicas....or building them - FV432s can be had running for £5k.

however - a lot of import agents are now advertising Su-100s...!

 

There is a fellow near me that brought a FV432 over here, and made it into a fairly good-looking replica of a StuG III: willys-StuG3

 

I saw that - some brits have recently done a stug III and Pz III on fv432 chassis as well;

Kent News - Military history buffs have built a homemade tank

 

Dare you to knock on his door and tell him it looks like sh1t without Zimmerit....!

 

I'm more annoyed that he's destroyed a perfectly good 432.

 

....to build what looks like a 2/3rds' scale PzIII! LOL

Looking around some sites tonight - it seems that VT34s are quite common, the postwar engineer version of the T34/85....and cheaper too. if you're going to build a tank replica, at least start with something the right approximate SIZE!!!

 

what really made me laugh was that they did it from scaling up a model. They couldn't even invest in some decent drawings or a visit or two to a museum

Still, I'm sure it makes them happy

 

I hear the Bulgarian govt. has an urgent need to offload some tanks ....

 

here's a better effort - Pz III based on Swiss Pz61;

 

Much better. In all seriousness, having seen the StuG replica that I posted, some parts looks pretty decent - but, others...don't . I think they ended up selling it, but don't quote me on that.

 

I hear the same about Belarus - I'm sure someone with good people skills could pick up a container load of T-55s (completely armed and armored, of course) for a few thousand USD in small unmarked bills

Sorry to change the topic, but weren't there a few FT-17s found in Afghanistan after the coalition invasion? Perhaps someone has a stockpile of German armor they aren't telling us about.

 

Alan, If you have a look at Feldgrau there were two threads there some years ago that traced the movements of German armour postwar. You'd be suprised....a lot of it remained "current" right up to the 1970s in the Middle East! The Syrians in particular bought up surviving StuGs and were able to muster two regiments of them eventually.

German armour was often simply scrapped at the end of the war; what do you think's inside all those nice concrete developments that replaced Allied bomb damage in French Channel ports, melted down for rebar???

NORWAY should have been a source of it; the Norwegians wanted to keep as many German tanks as they could in 1945...but the British flew in a demolition mission fronted by the SAS (Paddy Mayne and Roy Farran in particular) just after VE Day and they dynamited all the PzIVs in the country! That's why Norway ended up left with only Pz.IIIs!!!! Created quite the diplomatic incident IIRC...by way of apology the British gifted the Norwegians two complete iron smelting stacks dismantled from the Ruhr; these formed the core of Norway's postwar State-owned steel industry.

France used several armoured units consisting of secondhand Panthers immediately postwar, and wore them out; the Spanish and Turks had some "gifts", but the survivors of these found their way to the Syrians eventually too when well-redundant by NATO standards.

"Bush wars" in the Middle East and Africa dealt with a lot of period armour too; the Cubans sent old T34/75s and Shermans to Angola for one....for Col. Callan- Costas Georgiou - to encounter them there. Israel bought up and used the British Army's Archers.

A good net source for who used what immediately postwar is A.Kirk's Tanks! site

 

Thanks for the information. I'll have a look around and see what I find.

I know that Vietnam (as of 2007) still used Su-100s, and had T34/85s in reserve. The Cubans still use T34/85s actively in significant numbers, and a few of the South American countries still use WWII-era tanks in some way or another.

 

One rusted solid Mark IV changed hands a few years ago from the possession of a German Lady, for nearly half a million quid. Intact, but deeply knackered.
Your prices are way off-beam mate, if they were correct the collectors would be fighting to acquire them.
This Panther wreck is believed to have gone for c.£300K

At the recent Siikakangas auction of Finnish stugs the most expensive (wreck) went for 185,000 Euros (£130k), lowest price 115,000 euros (£81k).
Top price for a Comet was 25,000 Euros (£17.5k).
For a Charioteer, 16,000 Euros (£11.2k).
These were not good condition vehicles, tens of thousands will be required to make them live again. It seems Mr Stallwood hoovered up all the Stugs, so fingers crossed we'll see them roll in the UK, but who knows as the International interest is high.

Shermans for 25k? No.
My old man was offered one in bad running order about 25 years ago for £7.5k. Those days are gone.
Snapped this one three years ago, and that price would be pretty decent now:



This Sexton was up for c.£80k last year:


£25K for a knackered but complete Churchill Croc (without trailer) in 2006.
Couple of Stuarts currently on sale:
www.staman.nl "POA"
Stuart M3, Part restored - Armour and Tracked Military Vehicles - MILWEB CLASSIFIEDS " £75,000 ono" - partial restoration.
Presumably of that batch that came from Brazil:
M3A1 Stuart tanks
Only a couple of years ago, complete Stuarts were c.£25-40K, that seemed steep at the time. It isn't now.

Perhaps the most interesting WW2 era full-track to be sold recently was a SU152 from RussianTrucks, not sure what it went for, or if it went (sealed auction in April this year) ; but I'd guess it was snapped up by one of the big boys, no matter the price.

On release, Abbots were c.£1500 in good order, I know as I seriously considered acquiring one.
Look to the condition of these 'cheap' ones you spot at the moment on Milweb etc. Mostly not good. Decently set up ones are climbing in price quite surprisingly as they appear to be gaining 'classic' status.
Chieftains have also climbed over the last couple of years. The 'average' was about £11k only recently. The reason they're so 'reasonably' priced overall is the usual lower price that goes with recent MBTs over the more 'garage-ble' smaller stuff, which always carries a premium (check out the loopy price of Kettenkrads... and talk to an owner about the cost of parts, particularly track parts). If you've got the urge for a modern MBT, make sure you're matey with a fair few chaps that used to wear black overalls for a living - complex. Notice how few you see running where the turret actually traverses...
On the £5k 432s, did you see the recent Whithams ones for 2.5-3.5k? Hit and miss though; you pays yer money. c.£7-8k is still about average for 43 series, more like 10 for anything a bit unusual. Some signs of the market slackening, but prices are always a bit down at this time of year.

Have you seen the vehicle in the flesh? Or spoken to the chaps that built it?
Really nice blokes, apparently having a bloody good time, and with a surprising amount of mechanical and innovative skill. Their attitude was refreshingly non-nerdy.
Didn't ask at the time, but the size looks about right. We suspect that photo on the Kent News site that did the rounds is a bit of an optical illusion, and the chap on the front being a man-mountain adds to the effect.
YouTube - war and peace show 2009 Panzer III 03

Looks like another one on the cards (edit - nope, think it's the same one. The dates threw me... those blokes work fast!):
FV432 conversion to Panzer 3 german tank
Looking at the state of that 432, it wasn't going anywhere.

Last time I looked, the Bulgarian German ex-bunker vehicles are bound up in legal/corruption/court type bother, so no surprises there. Some naughty men sold some bits to some other naughty men, & the auction that was scheduled never apparently happened. The Sofia museum seems unsure whether it wants/needs them, and the usual dithering/bureaucracy flowers.

Tanks/Panzers = not cheap, and that's without considering restoration and running costs.
No wonder skullduggery sometimes appears to rear it's head... But we're still waiting for news on that...

~A