Prokhorovka - 68th Anniversary

Today (July 12th) marks the 68th Anniversary of the Battle of Prokhorovka, a part of the Battle of Kursk in 1943 that saw one of the largest armour clashes of all time. The German 2nd SS Panzer Corps faced off against the Soviet 5th Guards Tank Army -- a combined total of over 1000 tanks. By the end of the day, nearly 400 armored vehicles lay destroyed on the field, and the battle ended in a tactical stalemate. The German forces were surprised by the stuff Soviet resistance, accelerating their increasingly defensive stand on the Eastern Front, and the battle was quickly turned into a Soviet propaganda victory. Below is a photographic "look back" at the battle. The photos come from various sources online.


A 5th Guards Army T-34 column moves toward Prokhorovka


A Panzer III column moves towards Prokhorovka


German armored vehicles advance towards Soviet lines


Soviet troops and T-34s move into battle


A Tiger I prepares to fire, moving past a destroyed T-34


A German Panzer III and Panzer II lay destroyed on the field.


A T-34 burns on the field


Soviet troops examine a destroyed Panther


German troops examine a destroyed T-34


The Soviet memorial that currently stands at the battle site

 

Not that I want to disappoint you,but,if you are looking at the following source :
The Battle of Kursk:Myths and Reality (by Licari),you will notice the following:
The SSPzCorps was not engaged ,but only the LSSAH with some 100 Pz,TD and AG.
They were faced ,not by the 5th guards Tank Army,but,by the 18th and 19th Tank Corps ( bear in mind that a Russian Tank Corps was the equivalent of a Western Armoured division) with 420 tanks,TD and AG and a separate unit commanded by general Trufanov .

 

The Soviet memorial that currently stands at the battle site
I wish the Soviet forces had T-34-85s at the time of this battle.

Regards,

 

Both armies had old and obsolete Tanks at the battle, the Russian T-34/76 was still a good tank though, not like the Pz Mk IIs & IIIs that the Germans still fielded, and if my memory serves me, the Russians had British and American tanks too I believe, so it evened its self out a little. I am not sure which tank destoyers the Soviets used at the Battle, maybe SU-85s and SU-100s, both capable of knocking out either the Tiger or Panther (which was not up to stratch at the time) so the main Battle Tanks used by both sides would have been the Pz Mk IV and the T-34/76. The Soviets also had T-70 Light Tanks also, but there were not much use.

 

My sources don't agree with those numbers. For instance, in John Keegan's Atlas of WWII, he cites the germans losing "over 300 tanks" at Prokhorovka alone. He also specifically mentions that the 5th Guards Tank Army was the Soviet unit that was engaged, not necessarily just the 18th and 19th Corps. He states that "over 1000 tanks actually clashed" - far below the numbers given by the source that you cite. The is a possibility that Keegan is expanding the Prokhorovka losses to include the entire southern sector, but I doubt it.

In Porter's "The Red Army in WWII", he states that "the German attack was led by Hausser's II SS Panzer Corps", and that "Vatutin believed the situation was critical and committed the 650 tanks of Rotmistrov's 5th Guards Tank Army". These numbers match what Keegan says. He stated that the 5th Guards was reenforced by the II Tank Corps and II Guards Tank Corps, which "[increased] its strength to about 850 tanks". He also stated the Germans had 211 tanks at the start of the battle.

I checked another source I have, Patrick Agte's "Michael Wittmann and the....Leibstandarte in WWII" and it does agree with your allocations for the Soviet forces. It states "that day the Soviets threw two tank corps against the 2nd SS Panzer Corps". However, it contradicts your claim that only the LLSSAH was engaged - stating "2nd SS Panzer Corps, whose three divisions had set out together".

I understand that there is a discrepancies between the figures, and that is to be expected. Given the Soviet propaganda that has clouded the battle, and that accurate records are hard to come by, this comes as no surprise to me. I'm merely posting my sources to show that I haven't just pulled the numbers and units in my original message out of "thin air" or off of some website. The Eastern Front isn't my area of expertise, so it is very possible that you are correct - I'm just saying that the sources I have don't agree with yours.

Regards,

 

From what I have read, you are correct. Despite common thought, there were only around 150 Tiger Is that saw action in the entire Kursk Operation (This comes from Patrick Agte's "Michael Wittmann"), and some Panthers. The Panthers in this battle struggled with mechanical problems, which are well-publicized. As for the Soviets, M3s were involved (the aforementioned book has a photo of a M3 destroyed by a Tiger near Prokhorovka), as were lend-lease Shermans and even some Churchills. There is one photo of Germans using a captured Churchill near Kursk. I believe that that one regiment equipped with the SU-152 tank destroyer also saw limited use at Kursk, the first combat action for the new assault gun.

 

Thanks George, I thought the Soviets used lend lease AFVs at Kursk.

 

Here is the photo I was talking about: A Churchill captured at Kursk

 

may I recommend George Nipe's book on the II. SS Pz. Korps which is essentially copies from the German KTB's repeated over and over again but you will get a picture of the content of each one of the 3 W-SS divisions. there were NO W-SS Panthers at Kursk as an additional note.

Also Wolfgang Schneiders volume 2 book on the Tiger. you may not agree with assessments of claims to actual kills but at least he gives figures of what was on hand at the start of the Battle and goes through showing day progressions with most % ages due to mechanical failures of crappy engine problems and not being knocked out by Soviet armor.

 

Great pictures Alan. Thanks for posting them.

Thanks to everyone for posting the great source references!

Moment of silence for the brave men who fought that day.

 

4th pic down of the Pz II's from K = Kleist armored group seems to be very pre-Kursk, note the camo and markings on the pz's

 

I have found the following
1)Strength of the II SS PzK on the evening of 11 july 1943
LSSAH z :60 (of which 4 Tigers) +30 AG +TD
Das Reich :61 or 57 Pz (1 tiger) and 39 AG +TD
Totenkopf:9O or 94 Pz(of which 10 Tigers) and 32 AG +TD
2) Strength of the 18 +29 Tank Korps at the evening of 11 jumy (519 TK was a typo,sorry)
18 TK:Real strength:T 34 103 T 70 :64 Churchill :24
29 TK:Real strength :T34 130,T 70 65,KWI :1(?) SU 76 9 SU 122 :12
German strength :211 Pz +96 TD +AG
Russian strength:384 tanks + 21 SU .
Two points :
1) most authors are giving (on German side) only the LSSAH as participating
2) if one would look at "the tank battle of Hannut (may 1940),one would see that the number of committed and lost tanks was much greater than at Prochorova .

 

Thanks for the numbers. The German strength is in the same range as the numbers I have seen, but the Russian numbers still seem on the low side. As for the LSSAH's participation, from what I have read, it appears to have been the "spearhead" of the assault, but the three sources I have cited (specifically Patrick Agte) state that all of the 2 SSPzCorps was involved, or at the very least most elements of it.

 

I think you are correct, Erich. I'll pull it from the original message. I just noticed the markings now.

 

for your data files

KTB's of the three Waffen SS Regiments operating Tiger I's

13./Pz. Rgt. 1 5 Tigers with additional 7 in repair making 12 total

8./Pz. Rgt. 2 13 Tigers

9./Pz. Rgt. 3 11 Tigers

all this as of July 11, 1943

 

BTW, in this photo
Tiger I prepares to fire, moving past a destroyed T-34

the Soviet tanks looks like BT-7 - its hatches have a characteristic form.

Regards,

 

Chi-Ri,

It is a Soviet BT-7, and the photo is of a Tiger from Schwere Panzer-Abtielung 502. Also, the photo is cropped, the larger original shows another Tiger coming up behind this one, as well as, a KO'd KV-1 off to the left.

 

They are still interesting pictures

LJAD,
what was your source for the figures posted above? I am very much intrigued

Thanks in advance.

 

Sorry ;I forgot the source .
Some time ago,when searching on the net 'German strength at Prochorovka',I found the following source:
historyk b.com/Uwe/Forum aspx/world ...(it is on the foot of the first page) which was giving a source for Prochorovka (an article from a retired German /Austrian ? general):
An analysis of the battle at P.was published in the Oesterreichische Militaerische Zeitschrift issues 5 and 6 /2003.accessible on the line on :
bmlv.gv.at/omz/ausgaben/artikel.php?id =142 and 158 (German text) and 146 and 163 (English summary)
On the right side,you will see some pictures,by clicking,they will enlarge .

 

Following the official Germany and WWII (Tome 8,P 130),1 and 2 SSPGD had on 11 july 1943 186 tanks,AG and TD and on 13 july (after the battle of P) :190.
On P 136 (from the same source) it is stated that the 2 SSPGD each only had 1 Pzbatallion,the 2nd remaining in Germany,training with the new Panthers,what is explaining the low numbers of tanks.