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The final demise of the IJN...


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#1 brndirt1

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 05:13 PM

Yamato. I just finished reading this condensed and short, but pretty detailed summary of the demise of the IJN’s battleship Yamato. When operation Ten-Go failed, the Imperial Japanese Navy effectively ceased to exist. It includes eyewitness testimony from some of the Japanese survivors as well as USN reports in its six pages.


Goto:


Killing the Yamato

Edited by brndirt1, 14 October 2011 - 05:36 PM.

Happy Trails,
Clint.

#2 Tristan Scott

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 04:32 PM

For a more detailed analysis of the Yamato's last sortie, and the decision process for Ten-Go, I highly recommend reading Japanese Destroyer Captain by Tameichi Hara. It's an amazing account not only of this battle (he was captain of the light cruiser Yahagi escorting the Yamato during Ten-Go), but of all the battles in which Hara was involved throughout the war.

The book has been re-published by the USNI:
JAPANESE DESTROYER CAPTAIN | U.S. Naval Institute

#3 syscom3

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 04:55 PM

Yes, that book is an excellent read!

#4 Carronade

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 05:18 PM

I would say the IJN had effectively ceased to exist after Leyte Gulf, even if the limbs of the corpse continued to twitch occassionally. Nor for that matter was Yamato literally the end of the navy; there remained in home waters four battleships, two heavy cruisers, and others. I wonder if there was simply no fuel for them to join the sortie, or if the sacrifice of Yamato was considered sufficient for the navy's honor.

Japanese Destroyer Captain was one of my first serious war books. Hara had quite a career including participation in many of the Solomons battles.

#5 syscom3

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:06 PM

there remained in home waters four battleships, two heavy cruisers, and others. I wonder if there was simply no fuel for them to join the sortie, or if the sacrifice of Yamato was considered sufficient for the navy's honor.


The IJN was out of fuel. The Yamato's journey was to be a one way trip. Only enough fuel for that. If successful in scattering the invasion fleet, then it was to be run aground and expend the last of its ammunition on shore bombardment.

And the sortie was not for the navy's honor. It was a planned mission for a task with the hope it could be carried out.

#6 Carronade

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:32 PM

No offense, but do we know that for fact? That there was literally no fuel for Nagato, Haruna, Tone, etc. to join a one-way mission?

"hope" is the word all right; I expect the Japanese would have been as shocked as the Americans if they had made it to Okinawa!

#7 Tristan Scott

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:48 PM

Yes there was no fuel. Japan's fuel supply was in the southern areas she had conquered, that's why in '44 most of her ships were based in Brunei. With the loss of the Philippines there was no longer any possibilty of transporting fuel to the Home Islands. The Yamato and her escorts were to have been given just enough fuel to run in to Okinawa, but the commander of the fuel depot broke that order and gave the ships all the fuel he had in his tanks. It still was not enough to get to Okinawa and back, but that was the mindset at the time for this mission; Very few liked the idea of sending these ships on what seemed like a suicide mission, but the Emperor had asked what the Navy was doing for the effort in Okinawa, so the Navy tried to come up with a plan, any plan that would give them at least the opportunity to do something.

The Army planned a big air attack on the American invasion fleet on the day of the Yamato's sortie, and it was hoped that the Ten-Go force would draw away some of the planes protecting the fleet. As it turned out this attack caused moderate damage to the Hancock and to the Maryland and heavily damaged a destroyer, but not much else.

#8 Messy1

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 09:32 PM

I'm very interested in this topic. Cannot wait for everyone's opinion.
Bryon O.

"When you are at the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on!"
-Franklin D. Roosevelt

#9 steverodgers801

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:49 AM

Actually I would say the Mariannas was the end of the effectiveness of the IJN since it was the last time they tried air operations. But for the snafu in communications the IJN would not have even had the opportunity at the transports.

#10 brndirt1

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:37 PM

The article and the post were in reference to the demise of the IJN's Yamato, not the entire service, nor the beginning of the collapse of same.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#11 mikebatzel

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:52 PM

In response to questions about Japan's fuel shortages, I find it quite interesting that in 1945 a full quarter of Japan's fuel supply was some kind of bio-ethonal fuel. IIRC potato based fuels for aviation, and soy based for the navy. Primarily the IJN used this fuel in destroyers but I do remember reading somewhere that Yamato also recieved this type of fuel for her final sortie. Taking into account the food shortages in Japan, the Japanese Empires fuel situation was indeed extremely critical. To use the food needed by the people to continue fighting the war simply boggles the mind.
Please give the Combined Fleet the chance to bloom as flowers of death. This is the navy’s earnest request. RADM Tasuku Nakazawa prior to the Battle of Leyte Gulf
It is the function of the Navy to carry the war to the enemy so that it will not be fought on U.S. soil. Admiral Chester W. Nimitz

#12 lwd

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 02:49 PM

The IJN was out of fuel. The Yamato's journey was to be a one way trip. Only enough fuel for that. ....

I've read somewhere that that was the plan but the fueling crew actually gave her enough fuel to return.

#13 Slipdigit

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:54 PM

In response to questions about Japan's fuel shortages, I find it quite interesting that in 1945 a full quarter of Japan's fuel supply was some kind of bio-ethonal fuel. IIRC potato based fuels for aviation, and soy based for the navy. Primarily the IJN used this fuel in destroyers but I do remember reading somewhere that Yamato also recieved this type of fuel for her final sortie. Taking into account the food shortages in Japan, the Japanese Empires fuel situation was indeed extremely critical. To use the food needed by the people to continue fighting the war simply boggles the mind.


I've read somewhere that that was the plan but the fueling crew actually gave her enough fuel to return.


Any ideas at all where y'all might have read this? Was it conjecture or referenced material?

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#14 mikebatzel

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:21 PM

Yes Jeff, I have I pdf on the development and sustainability of bio-fuel programs in East Asia which gave the 25% figure, but uploading the file failed. I'll see if I can find it again on the web.
Please give the Combined Fleet the chance to bloom as flowers of death. This is the navy’s earnest request. RADM Tasuku Nakazawa prior to the Battle of Leyte Gulf
It is the function of the Navy to carry the war to the enemy so that it will not be fought on U.S. soil. Admiral Chester W. Nimitz

#15 brndirt1

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:25 PM

Yes Jeff, I have I pdf on the development and sustainability of bio-fuel programs in East Asia which gave the 25% figure, but uploading the file failed. I'll see if I can find it again on the web.


Don't forget that the Japanese were also sending people out to collect pine-nuts for distillation into an inferior aviation gas as well in the final stages of the war.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#16 Slipdigit

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:41 PM

Okay, Mike. If you can't get up, let me know and I'll see what the problem is.

Clint, I wonder how nuts it took to make a gallon of fuel. I'll bet that there were not enough nuts in all of Japan to even get Yamato out of the harbor.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#17 brndirt1

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:50 PM

Okay, Mike. If you can't get up, let me know and I'll see what the problem is.

Clint, I wonder how nuts it took to make a gallon of fuel. I'll bet that there were not enough nuts in all of Japan to even get Yamato out of the harbor.


The pine-nuts, as I understand the process were used for a gasoline avgas substitute fuel only, not bunker fuel for ships.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#18 Slipdigit

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:05 PM

The pine-nuts, as I understand the process were used for a gasoline avgas substitute fuel only, not bunker fuel for ships.


That make sense. I was making a rather lame joke.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#19 mikebatzel

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:12 PM

Here you go Jeff. It's in section 2.2.1 http://www.google.co...pHuWvy1hkV0sxNw
Please give the Combined Fleet the chance to bloom as flowers of death. This is the navy’s earnest request. RADM Tasuku Nakazawa prior to the Battle of Leyte Gulf
It is the function of the Navy to carry the war to the enemy so that it will not be fought on U.S. soil. Admiral Chester W. Nimitz

#20 syscom3

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 02:21 AM

Unless I am woefully wrong, The fuel needed for shipping is a heavy fuel oil. This cannot be the same as pine related distillets.

#21 brndirt1

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 01:53 PM

Unless I am woefully wrong, The fuel needed for shipping is a heavy fuel oil. This cannot be the same as pine related distillets.


This why I made the point of the pine-nuts being distilled for an avgas substitute, not a heavy fuel oil or "bunker oil" used in the IJN's ships.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#22 lwd

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 03:24 PM

Any ideas at all where y'all might have read this? Was it conjecture or referenced material?

I think it was over on the IJN board at j-aircraft. As I recall they sited some reasonably authoratative reference material.

#23 Takao

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 03:30 PM

Any ideas at all where y'all might have read this? Was it conjecture or referenced material?


Sure, you can read through all the material pertaining to Japanese Fuels & Lubricants in the US Naval Technical Mission to Japan at the Fischer-Tropsch Archive. Here is the Link: REPORTS OF THE U.S. NAVAL TECHNICAL MISSION TO JAPAN
The 10 articles are found in "Series X: Miscellaneous Targets", from JM-200-K, -L, and -M, look for X-38(N)-1 through -10. It is a lot of information, and some of the .pdfs are quite large, so you might want to save them first.


As to the Yamato having plenty of fuel, that was first reported in Russell Spurr's book "A Glorious Way To Die"(which has recently been reprinted).
Amazon.com: A Glorious Way to Die: The Kamikaze Mission of the Battleship Yamato, April 1945 (9781557042484): Russell Spurr: Books
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#24 Tristan Scott

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 06:31 PM

I've read somewhere that that was the plan but the fueling crew actually gave her enough fuel to return.


According to Russell Spurr’s A Glorious Way to Die, even though they were ordered only to give them 40% capacity, the fuel yard commander gave the task force all their fuel which gave them about 60% capacity which may have been enough for a return to Japan. According to George Feifer’s The Battle of Okinawa: The Blood and the Bomb, the officers in charge of fueling felt that the Yamato could survive if she ran into two or even three US battleships, so it would be important for her to return home if that were the case.
The Yamato was seen by many in Japan as an almost invincible ship. It also seemed that the surface sailors the world over were very slow to respond to the idea that the Battleship’s day as the supreme capital ship was over.
Also-as to the fuel used by naval ships in WWII-they used what the US Navy referred to as Bunker C fuel oil, which was essentially crude oil that was only lightly screened. It was usually preheated to a relatively high temperature before being pumped to the burners on the boilers which helped prevent the nozzles from clogging.

OH! On edit, I see that Takao has already made the Spurr cite on the fueling issue!


#25 firstnorth

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 04:53 PM

The pine-nuts, as I understand the process were used for a gasoline avgas substitute fuel only, not bunker fuel for ships.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By any possibility were they collecting pine roots instead? Pine roots can be distilled for turpentine...

From the other site:
Axis History Forum • View topic - Japan and oil

Japan ,in Manchuria, had been mining & extracting shale oil since 1929. although the 'fusan process" required steel retorts, it was pretty straightforward.I 'm not sure why it wasn't ramped up.
Oil-Shale Development - Oil-shale Mining (TP 2359, Petr. Tech., May 1948) - Document Summary




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