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The Battle in the Baltic Sea, 1944-1945.


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#1 Friedrich

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 10:55 PM

"The war in the Baltic Sea 1944-1945"

by Friedrich von Hammerstein.

It was the midnight of August 19th-20th 1944 when a heavy cruiser steamed through the Irben route, between Courland and Oesel Island. It moved noiseless, with lights off and slyly to the front.
This front, of course, meant the Army front on land, because at sea the fighting was all around: the ship could hit a mine at any time, a mine laid by Soviet aircraft weeks or hours ago; the ship could also be attacked by a submarine, even if the General Staff knew that there had not been seen any Russian submarines in the Baltic since 1942, except for the blockaded Finland Bay. Despite of that, it was to be expected that Soviet aircraft raided her at sunrise. Then the antiaircraft artillery of all-calibres on-board the ship could welcome them warmly.
The big ship, escorted by four destroyers and five torpedo boats was the German heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, whose task was supporting German Army Group ‘North’ with her guns.
At 0300 hours everybody on-board the Prinz, as she was friendly called, were given the order to attend their battle-stations. With clear decks, she would get into battle as soon as the alarm signal was sounded. She was heading to Riga Bay where the Soviet armoured columns had reached the shores, isolating the German garrison at Riga and the forces in Courland, creating then a gap 25-kilometres-wide. The German armoured units inside the pocket were planning a counterattack to re-establish contact with the city of Riga. The German Army did not have artillery powerful enough to adequately prepare the attack, there was the need to reinforce it with the naval guns.
On August 20th, at 0700 hours the cruiser shot her first test-rounds. The artillery officer on-board was closely in touch by phone —by ultra short wave— with a Navy hydroplane flying over the objective as well as was in touch with the forward infantry and artillery observers and scouts of the Army. The target was invisible from the cruiser and was the town of Tukkum, 15-kilometres in-land, which was an important railroad centre and there were where the strongest enemy spots were located.
When the Prinz Eugen shot her first 8-inches rounds, it was heard a noisy mixture of cheerful screams: “Bravo! Exactly on the target! Donnerwetter! My friend, you did as you promised! This is going incredibly good! Vorwärts!
Everybody were talking loudly and simultaneously. The cruiser requested to “moderate their enthusiasm”. When she kept firing round after round the observers informed that eighty-per-cent were direct hits, despite that the cruiser was not firing from a stable position, she was actually sailing hither and thither. There was no doubt that the Prinz was incredibly accurate.
Meanwhile, the destroyers were also intervening, giving a good use to their more modest, but effective as well, small guns. When the Riga garrison made an attempt to reach the German armoured columns they were not attacked by the Russians, who had been absolutely taken by surprise. Although the commanders of the Prinz Eugen were very concerned about the possibility of a Soviet air-attack, none took place; not even one Russian plane appeared and the German watchmen searched in the sky, in vain. The heavy bombardment continued unmolested.
By the late afternoon the Army sent a note of sincere gratefulness to the Prinz Eugen for her effective support. The Russian lines were more than annihilated and by that moment, there was no more need of the Navy’s fire support. “25-ton T-34 tanks had been blown up, two or three at the time by the Navy’s guns. These ‘steel monsters’ actually flew some 3-metres above the ground when the Prinz’s shells exploded” described an Army artillery observer. The heavy cruiser steamed as fast as it could to leave the Bay of Riga to prevent any sudden air-raid; there, the Prinz would have been very vulnerable in those strait and narrow waters. She went back to Gotenhafen without setbacks and there she was made ready to sail once more.

[ 20. June 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#2 Friedrich

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 01:21 AM

Here's it, Erich.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#3 Greg A

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 02:54 AM

Very interesting post Friedrich.

Greg
"There are times when a Corps Commander's life does not count"
-General Winfield Scott Hancock at Gettysburg, July 3, 1863

#4 Erich

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 03:12 AM

Fried :

Great start ! I imagine U will have pics of the Prinz later after single weapons/shields forward, the last one a single mounting on top of the second turret forward......

great pic ;)

~E
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#5 reddog2k

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 04:20 AM

Just a question wasn't the Prinz Eugen with the Bizmark when she sank?
"Family, friends, religion. These are the demons you must slay if you are to become successfull in bussiness. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be sitting in some phoney-baloney church... or a SINAGOGUE!" - Montgomery Burns

#6 Kai-Petri

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 05:48 PM

No, the ships sailed at different directions since 24th May:

24 May 1941: Between 0555 and 0609, together with Bismarck engages the battle cruiser Hood and the battleship Prince of Wales. Obtains at least one hit on Hood before the mighty British battle cruiser is sunk by Bismarck at 0601. Afterwards obtains three hits on Prince of Wales. Expends 179 20.3cm and 66 10.5cm projectiles and remains herself undamaged. At 1814, in the afternoon leaves Bismarck and heads south.

http://www.kbismarck.com/peugen.html
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#7 Erich

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 03:00 PM

A very large **bumbp** for Gottfried.....

does it say much about Destroyer activities in August 44 ? suppose you will continue correct ?

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#8 Erich

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 10:12 PM

Herr General, are you going to give us another installement from Cajius Bekker's book for September ?
I am ready to add my two cents anytime....

~E~ graemlins/rk.gif
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#9 Friedrich

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 11:05 PM

Don't bloody dispair, Erich! Here it is!

* * *

The success of this first ‘live’ attack, after months and years of hard training, gave a new incentive to the German crews in the Baltic. With the exception of an air attack suffered by the Prinz Eugen, she had not taken part in any military operation for more than two years. Some other ships had been in the Baltic for longer, used to train men and officers and specially, submarine crews, whose number didn’t cease to increase. Since Hitler decided that the ‘tin boxes’ were no longer useful and that they should be withdrawn from service, the “Training Squadron of the Fleet” had been reinforced. The OKM saved more than one ship of being scrapped by this method because Hitler himself had approved their use for training matters. Except for some brief periods, when they were sent to Norway, the following ships formed the “Training Squadron”: the old battleships Schlesien and Schleswig Holstein, the ‘pocket battleships’ Admiral Scheer and Lützow, the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen and the light cruisers Nürnberg, Leipzig, Köln and Emden and three training sailing ships.
The officers and men of these ships that represented an awesome combat unit were deeply disappointed about the passive rôle they had to play in the peaceful task of training men in the quiet Baltic waters while the war was getting hotter in every front, including the seas.
The Naval General Staff, however, realised of how important the adequate training was and did not allow to change things in 1943 and even 1944. Since the first months of the latter year it became very obvious that the Russians were again dangerous enemies in the Baltic Sea. The intervention of the Prinz Eugen in Riga was an undeniable major success and the Army General Staff was nicely relieved because, with the heavy ships there, they would be able to fight with their backs to the sea. Then the “Training Squadron” became a “Combat Squadron” of ships specially effective. Suddenly, the remains of the Baltic Fleet became involved in the extremely important task of supporting the ground forces which later became not only supporting them, but knocking out the Russian attacks over and over again, so as many men, women and children as possible could escape to the west. Tens of thousands of Germans owe their lives to the in fatigable efforts of these ships and their crews.
Thanks to the naval artillery’s intervention between October 10th and 23rd 1944, the city of Memel, its inhabitants and the refugees who were there didn’t fall into Russian hands; the Russians, at that time were attacking severely and in great quantity. The ships turned themselves to attack. And yet, when the Prinz Eugen was rapidly going back to Gotenhafen to re-supply of ammunition, an unexpected catastrophe occurred.
In that very same date, the light 6.000-ton cruiser Leipzig left Gotenhafen by sunset. Her twenty-months training was over and she was going into action but first, she had to pick up hundreds of mines at Swinemünde.
The sky was cloudy and the night was falling quickly when the Leipzig steamed around Hela peninsula to get into high-seas. At 1950 hours the order to disconnect the Diesel engines —only used in moderate speed— from the propellers’ axis and connect the turbines was given. This meant that the cruiser was going to be with engines-off for a moment. The night was very dark and the fog very thick and “you could barely see fifty-yards-away.” The Leipzig had turned her lights off because several warning had been received that Soviet submarines were marauding those waters, dozens of men on-board searched the darkness while the lonely ship was floating freely.
At 2000 hours one-hundred cadets abandoned their dormitories, once engine room number 2, which was destroyed by a mine in December 1939. When reparations were made, it was re-arranged as a dormitory for one-hundred men.
Half of Leipzig’s crew was at their posts and the other half relieved the guard every four hours. Those one-hundred men were going into service at 2000 hours. The minutes passed by. At any moment the engines would be re-connected and the cruiser would move on.
Then, at exactly 2004 hours the ship shook violently.
Two of the ship’s carpenters were sat, playing chess in their body shop , between the bridge and the funnel in the upper deck. Precisely at 2004 hours their match was interrupted by an unexpected visitor: the two men stared horrified how the starboard armour split open with astonishing and deafening noise and saw the immense bow of a gigantic ship passing a few inches between the two men. Indeed, it was the bow of a cruiser the one which had thrown away the chess table, the bow of a 10.000-ton cruiser. A second later, the whole body shop collapsed, but fortunately, the two carpenters were able to escape unharmed.
The terrible hit provoked complete darkness in the ship; even the emergency lights ceased to work. Every man slowly went out from the corners they had been thrown into, while at the bridge, an officer wrote in the log without seeing a thing: “2004, hit by torpedo”.
The only communication device still working was the acoustic tube in the bridge; another officer cried through it, clarifying: “_ The Prinz Eugen has rammed us! The Prinz Eugen has boarded us!”
The heavy cruiser had been warned as well about the submarine menace. Therefore, as the Leipzig, she was steaming blindly without any light, in a foggy-night. When the light cruiser came up in her way it was too late to try anything except for switching the engines full-a-stern.
The Prinz stuck in her sharp bow into the Leipzig, exactly amidships, on starboard side, between the bridge and the funnel. The men in their antiaircraft positions were literally pulverised. With a disastrous screech, the heavy cruiser’s bow stuck in the light one’s side until the very centre of the keel, splitting it in two, making everybody fear that the latter’s backbone would suddenly break and collapse.
All the technical staff and personnel of engine room number three had been severely burned by the escaping steam from the broken boilers. Engine room number two, where minutes before one-hundred men had been quietly sleeping filled with seawater in two seconds. The last man had left the room four minutes earlier. The guard turn had saved their lives.
The Prinz Eugen’s bow was opened like shark’s jaws, and hanging from the shark’s teeth was the Leipzig. In that way, stuck into each other, both ships drifted for 14-whole-hours, totally vulnerable to Soviet aircraft and submarines. If those ships would have been in English waters they both would have been sunk for sure. But the Russians did not attack.
Unwired messages were sent and very soon several tugs and other ships were in scene. Two tugs were given the task of clearing the Leipzig’s bow of water, using sixteen water-pumps, preventing the ship from sinking. For the moment, both ships were still laying together and everybody was afraid of what could happen when they were separated. Despite of their fears they had to try. The manœuver was carefully prepared with acetylene blowpipes and the non indispensable crew was taken on-board other ships. The men remaining on-board of the Leipzig had already their lifejackets on and were ready to jump into the water at any moment.
At 1000 hours, fourteen hours after the collision, 133.000-horse-power-engines of the Prinz Eugen steamed full-a-stern while the tugs tied the Leipzig and prevented her from moving an inch. If the Leipzig split in two, she would irremediably sink, but it didn’t happen that way. They split out and both remained afloat. Both cruisers seek shelter in Gotenhafen. The Prinz Eugen could steam by herself and the Leipzig was brought to port by the tugs. Two weeks later, the Prinz and the Leipzig were back in the Baltic sailing and shelling the Russians. Even if the Leipzig’s hull was only repaired with some temporary steel-plaques, she had to carry out her duties despite of her condition. Much time after the war, the British sunk her in the Baltic with her toxic-gases load.
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#10 Friedrich

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 11:11 PM

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The Prinz Eugen and Leipzig after the collision.

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After 14-hours, both ships finally split appart.

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The Prinz's bow after the accident.

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The Leipzig's starboard side.
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#11 Erich

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 11:18 PM

thanks Fried, I'll add a little tidbit tonight my time before the Prinz/Leipzig incident. Thanks for those famous scans as it is pleasant to see details close up instead of a little 4x4 pic in a book. I can imagine in the last pic what the Leipzig boyz must have been thinking......"well it's all over for us now !".......

~E
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#12 Erich

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 10:26 PM

working on materials out of my data base and 6 different referecnes to give the Z and T-boats their creidt due in the Baltic 1944 onward.
Maybe by Sontag I will have it started......

~E
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#13 Erich

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 01:59 AM

still doing research but this week I may make an installment. finding some interesting bits on S-boot ops in 45 and the mission of the Nachtjagdleitschiff in Danzig Bay and the radar coverage this boat providied along with its rescue attempts of the German populace......

more coming....

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#14 TA152

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 06:52 PM

That was an interesting article and great pictures you posted General. I did have several questions about it though.

What was the toxic-gases load that the Leipzig was carrying when the British sank her ?

Did'nt the German Navy have ship board radar by that time in the war ? If so why did they not have it on to avoid the collision ?

Who was Prinz Eugen, the person, not the ship ?
I need a bailout of only $500,000

#15 Erich

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 07:01 PM

Ta, will let Gottfried answer U, but did you notice the upper 4cm bofors on the upper forward twin gun turret on the Prinz ? At the time of the accident the protective shield had been dropped. Also it does not show but there are also two more 4cm bofors on either side of the forward turrets making 5 for forward and lateral defence. The Prinz was one of the selct few that had a complete Barbara Fla refit before war's end....

~E
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#16 Erich

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 09:19 PM

Ok guys I see this thread easily becoming multi-paged in format. A question though to you Soviet navy experten.....

Kvt-Kaptn. graemlins/rk.gif Bernd Klug commands 1 S-boot and sinks 4 Soviet TK boats, the 16, 60, 136 and the 200 on March 28, 1945 near Libau, this part of Task F.

Who knows what a TK boat is ? Any pics....

danke schön gents

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#17 Kai-Petri

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 12:43 PM

Erich,

I think this will help...(?)

http://www.armscontr...ra_USSR_USA.htm

TKA/TK/T - Torpedny Kater = Torpedo-Boat

Sorry, no pics in the net...
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#18 Erich

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 07:15 PM

that's what I needed to know Kai ! thanks that explains much as the Torpedo boats were the prime enemy resistance in the Baltic to the KM in 1945. Second but doing the most damage was the Soviet subs. The Soviet shore batteries usually missed their KM objectives and were silenced but still obviously posed a thread off and on shore to ground troops.
found a distorted pic of a smoking Soviet KT hit by from a S-boot. what a strange elongated boat with a oversized forward gun and some mg's by the cabin and at the rear of the ship. Almost like a minatureized steamer with a central vertical smoke stack. sure does not look like a swift, light craft for the waters....

~E
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#19 Kai-Petri

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 05:42 AM

That´s good to hear, Erich!

BTW, did you check the site. I mean if you or anybody else has problems with Russian short names for boats this site telss what it is. Like:

Mine Warfare (MCM) Craft:
ZM - Minny i Setevoy Zagraditel' = Minelayer
MT/MTSh - Morskoy Tral'shik = Seagoing (Ocean) Minesweeper
TSh - Tral'shik = Minesweeper
BT - Bazovy Tral'shik = Base Minesweeper
RT - Reydovy Tral'shik 4 ranga = Roadstead (Coastal) Minesweeper 4th rank
KT - Kater Tral'shik
RChT - Rechnoy Tral'shik (ex-river)
Amphibious Vessels:
BDK - Bol'shoy Desantny Korabl' 1-go ranga = Large Landing (Dock Landing) Ship 1 rank
BDK - Bol'shoy Desantny Korabl'2-go ranga = Large Landing (Tank Landing) Ship 2 rank
SDK - Sredny Desantny Korabl' = Medium Landing Ship
MDK - Maly Desantny Korabl' = Small Landing Ship
DK - Desantny Kater = Landing Craft
KVP/MDK - Maly Desantny Korabl' na Vozdushnoy Podushke = Large Air-cushion Vehicle Landing Craft
KVP/D - Desantny Kater na Vozdushnoy Podushke = Small Air-cushion Vehicle Landing Craft (or Air-cushion Personnel Landing Craft)
KVP/S - Desantny Ekranoplan = Wing-in-Ground-Effect Amphibious Landing Craft

etc. etc.

;)
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#20 Erich

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 03:00 PM

will post an interesting short tidbit on Z-34 commanded by Korvette Kapitän Hetz during it's time in the Baltic in 1945 after work today....

Altenwolf
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#21 Erich

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 09:02 PM

first I have ordered a hot little book by R. Güth on the Z-34 so this should help the thread soon with more info....

from several German sources and English.....

Z-34 arrives in Kiel from Norway on February 1, 1945
Sailed for Gotenhafen and attached to the Second Kamf Gruppe on February 3rd.

5th February, escort to Admiral Scheer and involved in shore bombardment in the Tokemit area

16 February, escort convoys to Kurland

February 17th escort of ship ladden with troops and vehicles aboard the steamers Volta and Bukarest to Gotenhafen

20 February, escort for the Hamburg with over 12,000 wounded and refugees to Sassnitz

21 February, escort duty for the Deutschland to Gotenhafen

February 25, to Pillau with the T-33, embark 800 wounded for transfer to Gotehafen

February 28th with the T-33, escort of the Cometa and Stinnes to Libau

4 March 45, on return convoy from Libau to Danzig with wounded

9 March 45, shore bombardment with 190 rounds against Kammin

10 March 45, bombardment off Dievenow, Fritzlow and Kammin with 74 rounds

11 March 45, bombardment off Kolberg

12 March 45, bombardment off Sellnow and taking on wounded on the disengaged side.

15 March 45, bombardment of Kolberg on three different targets; 95 rounds

16 March 45, bombardment of Kolberg' takes on 1400 soldiers and wounded. Number 4 gun bursts !

18 March 45, Returns to Swinemunde

21 March 45, sail for Gotenhafen as screen for Lützow with the T-33 and Z-43; attack sub with depth charges; air raid at Gotenhafen; Soviet artileery forces numerous shifts of the boats in port.

23 March 45, Engage Soviet tanks in Zoppot; fired on by 120mm battery

24 March 45, Flak escort for Prinz Eugen; numerous Soviet air attacks

25 March 45, bombard several targets SW and west of Gotenhafen; more Soviet air attacks....

26 March 45, Flak escort for Lützow; running Soviet air attacks by Pe-2's and Il-2 a/c

27 March 45, bombardment off Oliva-Pelauken, number 2 gun bursts.

28 March 45, shore bombardment of Neufahrwasser und Langfuhr with 130 rounds. flak escort to Lützow and number 3 gun bursts (last single mounting); air attack by two Il-2's and 5 fighters, shore bombardment of Arlen and Lenienthal.

30 March 45, flak escort to the Franken with the Z-31

31 march 45, flak escort to the Prinz Eugen, air attacks; RAG used for the first time....

translating April now......be back.....

~E
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#22 Erich

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 10:27 PM

1st of April 1945, in a convoy to Hela escorting the Deutschalnd with 5,000 wounded and 5,000 refugees., and the Pretoria with 6,000 wounded and refugees.

3rd of April 1945, Z-34 arrives in Copenhagen with the convoy and re-sails for Swinemunde

5 April exchanges guns with Z-33

6th of April, Docks in Swinemunde

10th April 45, the gun exchanges with Z-33 are cancelled.

11 April 45, along with the T-36 become escorts to Sperrbrecher 17, the Goya, the Marburg, Lappland and the mars.

12 April 45, back to Hela; shore bombardment off Oxholt and Schwarzau with 103 rounds.

13th April 45, With the T-36 provides flak duties at Hela; sub attack and the Z-34 drops 37 depth charges.

15th April 45, bombardment off Oxholt' defends loaded refugee ships; number 4 gun bursts again ! fire-fighting party sent to Pretoria as it is hit in an air raid. Z-34 returns to Hela.
2 small shadows sighted at 2310 hrs, in 345 degree; torpedo hit port side and compartments 4 and 5. starboard engine still operative.

16th April 45, Anchored and attacked by 16 Pe-2 a/c and fighter escort. Serious flak damge.
towed west towards Swinemunde for repairs.

Boat later taken over by US forces and loaded with gas ammo and scuttled in Skaggerak on 26 March 1946......sad ending to a gallant ship !

E~
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#23 Kai-Petri

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 08:44 AM

Thanx Erich!

Interesting and made me check the net for more data on the battles in the Gulf.

Like

U-250

Sunk 30 July, 1944 19.40 hours, in the Baltic Sea in the Gulf of Finland, in position 60.28N, 28.25E, by depth charges from Russian sub chaser MO-103. 46 dead and 6 survivors.


http://uboat.net/boats/u250.htm

On 30 July, 1944 at 1242 hrs U-250 attacked the 56-ton Russian sub chaser MO 105 with a G7e torpedo, at the north side of the Koivisto strait in the Gulf of Finland. The Russian boat was destroyed easily (19 dead, 7 survivors), but the explosion brought other Russian boats to the location.
At 1910hrs, Russian 'Oberleutnant` Aleksander Kolenko, chief of MO 103, got a sonar contact from U-250 and dropped five depth charges. U-250 was not heavily damaged, but because an air-bubble track was visible on the water MO 103 dropped a second series of five depth charges. One of these exploded over the diesel room. A large hole opened in U-250's hull and she sank. Kapitänleutnant Werner-Karl Schmidt along with five other crewmembers in the control room managed to escape at the last minute.

Needless to say the Russians were thrilled to have a German U-boat captain alive and a sunken U-boat in shallow waters. Russian divers soon discovered that the boat lay at only 27 meters under water and had only a slight list of 14 degrees to the right. A large hole above the diesel room was observed. Two large air tanks, 200 tons each, were transported to the area and the Russians worked behind a smokescreen to raise the boat.

The Germans and the Finnish did what they could to prevent the boat, which was equipped with the new secret T5 acoustic-torpedo, also called Zaunkönig (Wren), from falling into Soviet hands. Finnish coastal artillery and German torpedo boats made frequent attacks on the salvage site, but to no avail.

Finally, in September 1944 the Russian raised U-250 and towed it between air tanks to Kronstadt for examination. On 15 Sept, 1944 U-250 was brought into the dry dock at Kronstadt.

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U-250 in the dry dock at Kronstadt.
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#24 Kai-Petri

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 08:52 AM

Check the one before this one as well!

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The losses around the Bay of Danzig were mostly due to very heavy mining operations by the British in 1944. This helped delay the deployment of the XXI boats in late 1944.
In case of U-416 it's the latter sinking position that I plot. As you can see 4 U-boats were lost in unknown position in the Gulf of Finland. This map does of course not include the more than 200 U-boat scuttled there in May 1945(?).

The eastern front position is drawn as of Aug 29, 1944.

http://uboat.net/maps/baltic_sea.htm
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#25 Juha Tompuri

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 03:33 PM

Hi!

Here are some links related to this topic

Radars
http://homepages.fh-...uArticRadar.htm

TK-boats
http://www.hut.fi/~j...BoatGal/PG5.jpg (Finnish "Viima", ex Soviet TK-141)
http://homepages.fh-...u/cMC_G5MTB.htm
http://homepages.fh-...C_D3typeMTB.htm

Regards, Juha
Si vis pacem, para bellum




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