Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Did the German Popluation want Lebensraum

Discussion in 'Prelude to War & Poland 1939' started by scipio, Dec 7, 2011.

  1. scipio

    scipio Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    652
    Likes Received:
    122
    Clearly Lebensraum was extremely important for Hitler and figured time after time in his speeches but my question is did the German Public really want Lebensraum?

    This thought was triggered by my reading of the German attempts in the Kaiser's time to encourage more settlement in the Eastern areas and East Prussia by use of subsidies and propaganda.

    These attempts largely failed and in fact the population of the Eastern border areas constantly fell as Germans in these areas emigrated in large numbers to the USA.
     
  2. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    290
    They had "Lebensraum" and i´m sure as if they really wanted it, they would have made it peaceful. Hitler wanted Oil, ore and other minerals, but he wanted them without the permission of their owners. So he developed the tale of "Lebensraum" to give his action a justification.
     
  3. Victor Gomez

    Victor Gomez Ace

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    115
    The question is not whether or not they wanted it....once they allowed Hitler to take power and consolidate his politics, raise the army in nationalist standing to the point the everyday citizen was afraid of opposing anything, the concept of Lebensraum was in the fabric of his perceived justifications for the taking of other's lands and property. In other words it is just another piece of the propaganda that he regularly sold in his speeches justifying Aryans at the front and everyone else as non-deserving of the possession of those things he wanted for his re-creation of Germany. Some people like to hear that they are great and superior and therefore they deserve something over someone else who may happen to own it. Think of "con-artist". The con-artist tricks you into buying in. You may lose out later but at the time you feel real good buying in. He makes you feel good and patriotic. You find out later you paid dearly.
     
  4. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,645
    Likes Received:
    305
    Location:
    Untersteiermark
    Actually, there are at least two questions to be answered here at the same time:

    1. Did the German population want the Lebensraum (A: Yes)
    2. Did the German population need the Lebensraum (A: No)

    From obvious answers to the above questions it becomes apparent how perverse was the the very core of WW2. So many innocent victims had to fall for something German people didn't actually need.
     
  5. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    I myself believe that the idea was an "easy sell" to the German populace of the time. Hitler's own concept of Social Darwinism seems to break down (in my mind) like this; Ideally, every nation state should be able to feed, shelter, and clothe itself, but the population of every industrial based nation tends to exceed the density at which this is possible in times of both health and peace.

    This reality leaves three options open for Hitler: lessening of the German population by population control, which seems morally un-acceptable in a basically Christian society (Germany at the time); or emigration, which in itself generally loses the best people at the expense of the prosperity of the state; or expansion into less well defended areas to gain land for food and fiber production, i.e. "…to acquire soil by the Teutonic sword for the Teutonic plow".

    Consequently Hitler picked option three, expansion. For a country placed where Germany is in central Europe, that could only mean expansion into the lightly populated USSR to the east, or in his mind "Jewish/Slavic Russia", and which his geopolitical mentor Karl Haushofer felt was the only direction for Greater Germany to go. The Slavs, whether Christian, Jew, or Communist atheistic didn’t deserve the land upon which they were settled.

    Needed or not, it was an appealing call to "national honor" and self-sufficiency.
     
    yili likes this.
  6. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2000
    Messages:
    8,386
    Likes Received:
    890
    Location:
    Jefferson, OH
    This is the same excuse Japan used for it's imperial expansion.
     
  7. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    14,288
    Likes Received:
    2,605
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    For many years before Hitler, many Germans viewed the Poles and Russians (Slavs) as untermenschen whose land they coveted for a variety of reasons. Once they allowed Hitler to become their leader, it was really only a matter of time. They didn't need the space, but they wanted it. Hitler just gave them the excuse they needed.
     
  8. Marmat

    Marmat Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2011
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    Huronia, Upper Canada
    Lebensraum didn't start with Hitler, but Hitler's version dovetailed nicely with the territory in the East most Germans felt they had taken away from them at Versailles, and that which had been legitimately won from the Russians at Brest-Litovsk. Weimar had no business signing off on the latter at Rapallo, the Soviets had clearly reneged ...

    The thing is though, it was up to everyone's "neighbour" to resettle, nobody really wanted to move out there. The German soldier fighting in the East, ostensibly for Lebensraum, dreamed of returning "Home", not taking his family to some German resettlement camp outside Lublin or Minsk. Ultimately it would be/would've been left to the so-called Germans from the border lands, like the Sudetenland "Hillbillies", people who spoke a German that few others could understand. So, it was one thing to harangue in the beerhall, practicality was something else.

    Did Mazower have something to do with this one as well?
     
  9. Victor Gomez

    Victor Gomez Ace

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    115
    For all of us who consider these things I admire you if you study these important influences that formed the thoughts and feelings of a people at a given time. Sometimes it is not easy to study and very difficult to understand. I believe by understanding these things we can best prevent our own minds from falling into the same faulty thought patterns. We can only do that if we carefully consider all the elements that create the condition. You may differ with me on this, but I believe a lot can start when a people are made to suffer. In that suffering is an atmosphere that becomes vulnerable to many kinds of propaganda, justifications, explanations, that only need the smallest element of "truth" to be "accepted". For me, it seems to explain things a lot when a stiff price was exacted out of the German people for "War Reparations" and that caused some hardships on the people and country that allowed Hitler to propagate his version of explanation and solution. When we ask ourselves a question like "Did the people want "Lebensraum" it is like asking Americans on the western frontier who were looking for lands to settle on "Did the Pioneers want Manifest Destiny?" Perhaps a study for some of us must be made of Manifest Destiny to compare it to Lebensraum. Certainly it can be said that there were many elements of the population that rejected the concepts and many began leaving Germany when they realized the path it was headed in. Certainly some remained in Germany secretly attempting to help the targeted populations(non-Aryan) although they often were picked out and made examples of. Certainly there was an element of the population that was without the resources to leave the country. And I would finally say perhaps a large number did accept Hitler's thoughts. However I remain steadfastly against making a statement that is so completely inclusive of the German people to create a simple "YES" or "NO". as it definitely is not that simple for me whether or not they liked Lebensraum. It would be the same to generalize about the American Pioneer to say that he or she was intent to take land from others whether they had the right or not based on the thought that it was their God given right to take from others when necessary. Some may have felt that way but some may have not is all that I am saying about it.
     
  10. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,984
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    I agree, the truth is neither black or white: it's more greyish.

    Settlers were caught between the opportunity to get cheap land East (or what's less known west, in the Westmark territories to compensate the loss of expelled locals) .

    Some were volunteers, others had to accomplish their Landdienst (Sort of Rad in the countryside) or simply were deported from evacuated areas even in places were Germans were minority (for instance in the vicinity of camps or secret ressearch areas). .

    Then should be added, the Volksdeutshe who returned to the Heimat out of ideology from eveywhere in the world and had no land when they returned and finally the die Hard volunteer settlers in the East .

    There should be a diffrence between the famrers who settled on empty land and who were sometimes victims of the war themselves (homeless, displaced etc...) , those (whether party members or not) who were naive and thought in the Lebensraum ideology as a way to bring "civilisation" to the East and those who took the homes of others and were fully aware they did something wrong (although , they were convinced they has the right to do so).

    I have the example of Prussian settlers in Strasbourg, who were absolutely amazed when the French troops entered the city , despite Hitler's propaganda which said Alsace would be Gemran for 1000 years. They just could not believe they had to leave the place . Some of them had founded families and though tthey could stay there. They were lucky in a way because they were allowed to take a suitcase and were alive and free to go.

    Those who were caught in the East were not so lucky.... Many of them had fled before the arrival of the Russians , but those who were isolated and had not been informed by retreating troops on large farms were surprised and caught , never to be heard of again.

    I have studied this matter quite a bit and my sources are mainly the Führerdienst magazines which advertised for the Landdienst. This is how I read I some Dutch settlers also moved to Ukraine to compensate the lack of Germn volunteers. They were massacred by the Russians and their fate has been long forgotten.
     
  11. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    290
    Seems to be the wrong answer at point 1. ! The whole bla bla that the funny little austrian set up about the "Lebensraum" was only to justify his war against Russia. He had no reason to declare war against Russia for his "Nichtangriffspakt" and the treatsy about dividing Poland between them both. So in the eyes of his folk weren´t a reason to go to war. But with the tale of" Lebensraum the Untermenschen-Theory and the evil Jews" he ad a good tool that hammered Dr. Goebbels long enough into the folks heads until they started to believe this rubbish! The German nation had enough Lebensraum and i´m sure that no one had to die if they weren´t poisoned by the Nazi leadership.
     
  12. leccy1

    leccy1 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    23
    Hitlers speeches pre war and in the early part of the war are liberally spread with ideas of lebensraum, how unfair it is that German has 80 million population but less land than most others in Europe per person. How it is the German right to set up colony's to spread out into (most will make mention of the ex German colony's in Africa being returned). They also contained passages about how Germany should have natural resources like Britain has in its Empire (it was not going to get them from just its old German colony's which at the time were mostly agricultural.

    This appealed to the people who had a sense of grievance at the terms of the Versailles treaty which to a greater or lesser extent the majority of Germans had 'at the time' (Propaganda and good orators excel at convincing people that their ideas are everyones).
     
  13. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    290
    Hi leccy,

    such speeches were the roots of all the evil that came later. And sometimes i ask myself if really all of the Germans were that dumb to believe the trash he told them, or were they to lazy to think about the facts? Only a few things weren´t to have in Germany like Oil and some minerals, but they had the Ruhrgebiet and if you´ll have a look at East Prussia the population was not much for the country they had, same in northern Germany. The Versailles treatsy was indeed a very black stain on the proud of the Germans and i can understand this.
     
  14. leccy1

    leccy1 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    23
    Gebirgsjaeger

    Hitlers speeches did twist and turn facts to suit his agenda of the moment, and despite all his many flaws he was a very good orator for the public. He told them what they wanted to hear but with underlying hints as to what he really wanted, after time the hints came to the fore and people accepted them as the goundwork had already been laid.
    In many speeches he mentions the idea of lebensraum and compares the 46 million Brits with 40 million square kilometers of land, rarely in the speeches I have read does he mention the native population. This compares with the 80 million Germans living cramped with 126 people per square kilometer (800,000 square kilometer German territory) that he often mentions (excuse me if thats wrong I have not got the transcripts to hand right now for the exact figures he quotes).
     
  15. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    290
    leccy, you´re correct with it, the numbers are a little bit different ( 633.786Km² and 78.800.000 people) but thats not so important. Hitler was a ace in manipulation and he had it easy at that time with censored newspaper and radio stations. No internet and other sources.
    There are some good examples of his speeches at YouTube and if anyone will watch them, you will find out that he was genius on that.
     
  16. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,645
    Likes Received:
    305
    Location:
    Untersteiermark
    Prominent historian Prof. Niall Ferguson has stated on more than a single occasion, that Nazis have turned living-space (Lebensraum) into killing-space. That is the saddest aspect of Nazi conquest.

    He has got that as much he wanted - from Russians in exchange for their industrial products.

    That tale has existed before Hitler. He turned it into the concept of killing-space.

    I am sure that Germans have learned that lesson well and that the concept of Lebensraum will never emerge as an ultimate goal of German nation.
     
  17. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,645
    Likes Received:
    305
    Location:
    Untersteiermark
    Exactly, dear Ulrich!

    No one had to die! We both live at the territory which was once the 3rd Reich, therefore, we may understand each other perfectly regarding this subject.

    Ironically, the recent genetic evidence indicates that German and Polish ancestries are almost identical. Poles allegedly have even a bit more Nordic ingredients than Germans. A cynic would say that it appears that Germans are genetic sub-variant of Poles. Furthermore, Nazis claims that Germans are genetically similar to Brits are also fundamentally wrong.

    And yet, persons with obvious physical oddities, like Göbbels and Himmler, were the fiercest advocates of racial supremacy and the inherited right of their own race to conquer the Grossraum.

    This subject, I guess, has much more to do with psychology rather than with genetics.
     
  18. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,333
    Likes Received:
    290
    Tamino,

    we have to divide the actions of the Nazi leadership from the simple folks.

    You´re right on this point. The Nazis perverted the Lebensraum to the killing space and not the german farmer, carpenter or steelworker.

    Getting it is not the same as owning it and that was his target. To own the things a other have without his permission.

    Correct, it existed since the years european emigrants left Europe to seddle down at the States officially. Lebensraum was a word used since the British, the Spanish, French and so on and so forth conquerred their colonies. So gaining Lebensraum was always connected with the killing of others and not a German development.

    And yes we do understand each other for this reason you mentioned. To me the genetic discussion on Nazis side wasn´t genetic too. It was like you said psychological and came from the oversized ego´s of some menthal badly undersized busybodies which had no chance in a normal live to reach a higher position than a road sweeper.
     
  19. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    8,515
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    As a practicle matter, fully integrating Austria into the Reich would have taken at least a gerneration. Czhechoslovakia would have taken several generations at least, and these were the 'bloodless' aquisitions. Eastern Poland would have doubled that. With no immigration to speak of the poor German house frau could not simply deliver children, she would have to churn out litters to have any hope of 'filling' up these areas alone. I hate to think what attempting to populate Russia would have done to tha frauliens. :eek:
     
  20. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,984
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    Yes, and this is why the Landsdienst recruited in Northern Europe outside the borders of the Reich. Even then they didn't find enough candidates. The fate of the Volga Germans probably deterred some candidates from going East and fill in the gaps.
     

Share This Page