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Pearl Harbor was a TRAP TO CATCH A (JAPANESE)

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#1 dexter livingstone

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 11:35 AM



Pearl Harbor was a trap.

Sad to say, but the Japanese were suckers and it cost them the Empire. America had a navel agreement with China that in exchange for free passage for all nations in China waters, no attempts on the sovereignty of China would be unchallenged by America. In effect, a wary China needed assurances that it would not be colonized if it opened its doors. The main reason, was that when European countries form ports and permanent populations, if they wish a pretext to war they can fake attacks on their citizens and swoop in with the troops. China feared colonization. America vowed to stop any colonization, in exchange to free passage and access to markets.

In fact, many states in Europe did get together to come up with a plan to carve up China, just like Africa was carved up by colonizers. However, a voice at the back of the room stopped this cool plan dead in its tracts. To proceed with even a planning phase, was like declaring war on America. The plans stopped there, right there!

Then along came the Nazis, sweeping in Europe in one grand slam after another. And the Japanese were getting amazing victories in China, China was almost done. America remembered her vows, but the American population was as anti-war as ever. America needed an excuse to break into the Frey, wipe out the Japanese and consolidate China into a military force to hold back the Russians and the Huns. Japan was a slam dunk, if only the Japanese could be bated into whacking a remote outpost dear to the hearts of every American, Aloha!
The risks were great, America knew that the Japs had examined the British raid on Toronto Italy, virtually wiping out the Mediterranean fleet from the air. America wanted to take a hit, but not too much of a hit. The trick was to stack ships side by side, making a broad sided attack limited in effect. Battleships need not be guarded, as their armor should be sufficient. Even if it was not, the harbor was so shallow that a tub could be refloated without much of a problem. Of course it a battleship tipped over, it would serve as a cool memorial and galvanize the pop to war. Midway however was the real trap, here the Japanese could be destroyed at sea as sea planes based here were the assurance that an attack would give much head time to mobilize an ambush, as it did.

China would next be liberated and be mobilized to march to the American drum to hold back both Hitler and the Russians, without committing American troops to Europe. Then stepped in the British, with their Germany First plan, and it seemed to make sense, had better time lines. The idea tasted good over tea, and bang! Germany declared war on America by surprise, and Americans were committed to Europe. Some say the British spy tricycle on a trip to Hawaii had definite intentions of the Japanese to pull another Toronto, and the slow use of this intelligence was to betray America like the memory of the Lusitania in WWI, but I think not. The Brits were at the table with the Americans, and I am sure they planed the trap together, it only makes sense!

What do you think?

#2 OpanaPointer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 11:55 AM

You don't set a trap and then stick your own foot in it. One plane over Hawaii would have been causus belli. Having sixteen ships sunk or heavily damaged and losing thousands of sailors is not how you want to start a war if you have a choice.

The idea that FDR et al. knew about the attack and "Just Let It Happen"™ is the silliest of the conspiracy theories. If they had wanted to surprise the IJN, they could have surprised them with a fully alert and battle ready fleet even if they didn't want to sortie the fleet. Several hundred AAA could have greeted the Japanese instead of them having over five minutes of free play before the first large gun got into action.

And btw, pejorative and racist terms are not looked upon kindly here. I've edited your thread title.

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


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The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
Pearl Harbor Attack Message Board
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#3 Tamino

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:14 PM

Good story, I must admit. That’s a starting point for a best-seller.

Every time I think about the Pearl Harbor I have a suspicious smile over my face: »He he! How convenient; just scrap was at anchor when Japs have attacked. I wonder if Americans have broken Japanese code before. «

However, I cannot conceive Americans scarifying their own soldiers, their own countrymen. Foreigners perhaps, but not own fellows Americans. That is too non-American!

EDIT: changed misspelled word "carp" into "scrap" and added a smiley!

Edited by Tamino, 07 January 2012 - 01:52 PM.

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#4 belasar

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:44 PM

I am a little surprised this has not been flushed yet.
Wars are rarely fought in black and white, but in infinite shades of grey

(Poppy is occasionaly correct, or so I hear)

#5 OpanaPointer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:47 PM

For Just Let It Happen™ to work you need to figure that FDR and Co. would be willing to sacrifice the fleet and its sailors for a chance that Germany would declare war when Japan attacked us in the Pacific. The Tripartite Pact didn't require this, so we would have to just plain HOPE Hitler would want to complicate his own position no end.

As for "carp", FDR and Co. would have to be willing to sacrifice the battleline to start a war, and everybody would have to accept that we could get along fine without eight battleships. Of course we would also have to decide exactly how much damage the Japanese would do, and agree that this was "enough". And FDR's Naval Attache, Capt. Beardall, would have to agree that his son just might get killed during the attack. I sure he was fine with that, however, given that FDR and Co. were all heartless, cruel monsters. (If you don't believe me, at the CTers.)

As for JN-25, if we had broken it, what would it have told us? The Japanese force, Kido Butai, didn't broadcast, and the IJN certainly didn't broadcast their eighty page attack plans via Morse code. (We actually captured one of the guys who printed the plans for distribution, via courier.) And if we had broken it, why were we, just six mnths later, only reading one word in ten at the time of the Battle of Midway.

So, what else ya got?

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


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The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
Pearl Harbor Attack Message Board
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#6 OpanaPointer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:50 PM

I am a little surprised this has not been flushed yet.

Having fun beating up on this theory. Slip may flush it, of course.

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


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The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
Pearl Harbor Attack Message Board
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#7 belasar

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:54 PM

I thought you might be mellowing abit, but I see your still in fighting trim. :)
Wars are rarely fought in black and white, but in infinite shades of grey

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#8 Tamino

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 02:06 PM

....

So, what else ya got?

I do apology if my previous post has hurt anyone's feelings. That wasn't my intention and I also have misspelled a single word. I regret that. :o

As the matter of fact I even haven't supported the original story, quite opposite. Just read my previous post. I just didn't want to use directly a term "conspiracy theory" because I didn't want to offend the author. A bit of sarcasm, that's all.

Shall we ask our "local NKVD authorities" to scrap this thread? ;)

Edited by Tamino, 07 January 2012 - 02:18 PM.

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.


#9 belasar

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 02:11 PM

Shall we ask our "local NKVD authorities" to scrap this thread? ;)


Smile when you say that Comrade! :)
Wars are rarely fought in black and white, but in infinite shades of grey

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#10 OpanaPointer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 03:13 PM

This subforum was born for this stuff. And the Rogues know I'll have fun with them.

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


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The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
Pearl Harbor Attack Message Board
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#11 mikebatzel

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 03:16 PM

Just pointing out that some of that "scrap" sitting in port that day crossed the T and decimated the Japanese in the Surigao Straight.

Edited by mikebatzel, 07 January 2012 - 03:27 PM.

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#12 Slipdigit

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 03:35 PM

As long it is discussed without getting out of hand.

Has the OP returned to offer any more evidence?

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#13 Tamino

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 04:05 PM

Just pointing out that some of that "scrap" sitting in port that day crossed the T and decimated the Japanese in the Surigao Straight.

Agreed!

Such stories exist since the Ancient times and perhaps before. There is a story by Euripides about Iphigenia, Agamemnon's daughter who has been sacrificed to Artemis in exchange for favorable winds to allow Ancient Greek armies to sail to Troy. Perhaps Iphigenia's sacrifice served just to raise morale of Greek Army who couldn't fight Trojans so faithfully for Helen, a woman of corrupt character.

What I wanted to say is that leaders must do something remarkable, or even peculiar, to make ordinary people join their war efforts with sufficient enthusiasm. In that respect, Pearl Harbor has dramatically affected America.

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#14 36thID

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 04:37 PM

If there was a packaged conspiracy, can Dexter explain the Burma Road...

#15 OpanaPointer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 04:54 PM

What I wanted to say is that leaders must do something remarkable, or even peculiar, to make ordinary people join their war efforts with sufficient enthusiasm.

The Japanese leaders did that, certainly. But FDR would have had a declaration of war within six months anyway, and with Marshall and Stark demanding every minute they could get to prepare, Just Let It Happen™ makes no sense.

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


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The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
Pearl Harbor Attack Message Board
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#16 TD-Tommy776

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 06:18 PM

...Just Let It Happen™...


LOL!! :lol: Me thinks there's a money making scheme afoot...

Freedom is precious and many gave their lives for it. It is the duty of the future generation
to remember that sacrifice, and offer some sacrifice for themselves if Freedom is threatened.

Cecil Earl Workman, WWII Veteran, "L" Co., 129th Inf. Regt., 37th Inf. Div.


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#17 OpanaPointer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 06:22 PM

LOL!! :lol: Me thinks there's a money making scheme afoot...

They're going to have pay me for using that meme. Posted Image

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
Pearl Harbor Attack Message Board
Veteran: USN, 1969-1989

#18 formerjughead

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:12 PM

Dexter seems very familiar to me

#19 Marmat

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:16 PM

... surely you mean opium, lots and lots of opium! Hmmm, and here I was born in Toronto, and never knew I was Italian??


Opana, how about a really nice studded "Navel Bauble", in lieu of payment? You don't have pierced nipples too now do you, we can arrange for a nice ensemble?


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#20 belasar

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:18 PM

Just as long as he isn't Dexter Morgan, I've been sliced and diced enough already!
Wars are rarely fought in black and white, but in infinite shades of grey

(Poppy is occasionaly correct, or so I hear)

#21 Marmat

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:33 PM

... you're a saint, I'll take a scalpel for you.

"Where is the hunter when the reindeer has its hoof in a pool of lava?" - Russian Proverb, Bartalamyeh Fyodorevitch


#22 Biak

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:42 PM

"" Of course it a battleship tipped over, it would serve as a cool memorial and galvanize the pop to war. ""

""
What do you think? ""

Definite fighting words to me. Best ye' stay in Canada.

Happiness is nice but it can't buy money.

 

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#23 OpanaPointer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:43 PM

... surely you mean opium, lots and lots of opium! Hmmm, and here I was born in Toronto, and never knew I was Italian??


Opana, how about a really nice studded "Navel Bauble", in lieu of payment? You don't have pierced nipples too now do you, we can arrange for a nice ensemble?


[ATTACH=CONFIG]24724[/ATTACH]

No pierced nipples, but I do have "Do not resuscitate" tattooed on my chest.

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
Pearl Harbor Attack Message Board
Veteran: USN, 1969-1989

#24 Victor Gomez

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:09 PM

Can we in parallel form step even farther forward with this theory so's we can blame our selves again for baiting Tim McVeigh, whereby we exposed him......and then again twice with the attacks in New York. Sooner or later you know we gonna have to quit this practice of baiting lest we reach a point where there is none of us left. It makes a lot of sense to block a strategic harbor with sunken ships to keep us all crippled up from doing anything in the pacific. With revisions we go amuck I suppose. It is so easy to put a twist on things these days.......we was supposed to be fishers of men....right?........but often all we do is practice "catch and release" having forgotten the original intent. Yes we even revised that, no?

#25 OpanaPointer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:20 PM

Check out the thread on Gerald Nye and birth of the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory, it's quite amusing in a morbid sort of way.

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
Pearl Harbor Attack Message Board
Veteran: USN, 1969-1989




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