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Japanese Crimes

Discussion in 'War in the Pacific' started by Ron, Oct 16, 2001.

  1. Ron

    Ron Member

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    Here is a piece of information i learned while reading a book of mine about POWs in the Philippines.
    This is a directive the Japanese War Ministry in Tokyo issued to all POW commandants. Regarding what to do with prisoners when the front lines came too close.
    "when the battle situation becomes urgent the POWs will be concentrated and confined in their location and kept under heavy guard until preparations for the final disposition will be made. Although the basic aim is to act under superior orders, individual disposition may be made in [certain] circumstances.
    Whether they be destroyed individually or in groups, and whether it is accomplished by means of mass bombing, poisonous smoke, poisons, drowning, decapitation, dispose of them as the situation dictates. It is the aim not to allow the escape of a single one, to annihalate them all, and not to leave any traces"

    This was known in the Tokyo war crimes trial as the "August 1 Kill-All-Order"
    also 25-28 percent of all POWS held by Japan died...in contrast germany was 1-3 percent.
     
  2. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Thats true except the allied death rate in Germany was more like 5%. Also, there was a Japanese MEdical study going on, and I think it was a unit called Unit 517, or something like that. Those sicko pricks injected all kinds of diseases on POWS and civilians alike--just to see the reactions that happened. :(

    Whats even worse is, that in japan today (at least from what I have heard and read) that they do not mention war crimes that their some of their opas committed, its PURPOSEDLY left out of THEIR history books :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  3. Ron

    Ron Member

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    yeah i heard about that camp in which they did medical experiments. I believe it was in china. They did everything from injecting diseases to having med students do disections and practice surgeries to perfect thier skills, of course regarding the disections, they were done while the victims were alive in order to see the workings of the body, then of course the victim would die. Sick

    [ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: Ron ]
     
  4. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Correct on all accounts. And to think that many of the participants, never were tried or punished in any way, shape or form. Many of them grew rich and wider in their later years. :mad: :mad: I sat they ALL, should have had capital punishment. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  5. Panzerknacker

    Panzerknacker New Member

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    I have seen evidence. My grandfather was a father in the AIF in the Pacific. He was captured c.1942 and held until the ned of the war. He was a sportstar before the war, and if you had seen pictures of him 1946-47, he looks very different. He died before i was born, and i know that his eyes had seen more than i hope i ever have to comprehend.

    The Jap Medical unit was a sick group of people.
     
  6. Shmavis

    Shmavis recruit

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    They were not tried for war crimes because the knowledge that they had gained from the hideous experiments was considered valuable by certain governments, just like with the German physicists, aircraft engineers and rocket scientists. Plus, the China-Burma-India theater was not being watched as closely by the public as the Pacific and European theaters. Ah, the Cold War. What fun!
     
  7. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Which is why I have nothing going for japanese vets. I do respect a FEW japanese vets as they all were not bad people--but waaaaay toooo many simply went along and did many dirty things just to have some fun--such as using their swords to play decapitation "games" with POWs. Germans did not do that--(with the vast majority of allied POWs excluding Russians)and is partly why I have so much more respect for former German soldiers than I do for former japanese soldiers.
     
  8. Ron

    Ron Member

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    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by C.Evans:
    Which is why I have nothing going for japanese vets. I do respect a FEW japanese vets as they all were not bad people--but waaaaay toooo many simply went along and did many dirty things just to have some fun--such as using their swords to play decapitation "games" with POWs. Germans did not do that--(with the vast majority of allied POWs excluding Russians)and is partly why I have so much more respect for former German soldiers than I do for former japanese soldiers.<hr></blockquote>

    hmmmm i have to say though, even i would argue with that logic. See you have a point in regards to how well germans treated allied prisoners. But how well did certain germans treat Russian prisoners and populous? How well did germans treat their own jewish people and other "undesirables" as well as those same people from other countries? or how did germans deal with resistance groups? i think you know the answers.
    Now did EVERY german soldier do this? Of course not! BUT i really loose ALOT of respect for german vets in general. because i just don't know if this certain german vet did nothing but fight bravely or rape a russian woman, execute suspected resistence fighters or round up jewish people for deportation.
    same thing holds true to the japanese vets...were they all bad? Of course not!...but the fact that i don't know if this particular vet did nothing but fight bravly or decapitate a prisoner makes me loose a lot of respect for them.
    If i was in the company of german or japanese vets i would respect them...but i surely wouldn't hold them with any reverence. unless i found out what their role in the war was. So thats my two sense, no offense ;)
     
  9. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    I do think that much much less atrocities were committed by Germans against allied pows that those committed by their japanese counterparts.

    For instance, the percentage of death rates in comparison. I think the Germans pows death rate was somewhere around 5 to 6 percent--compared to the 35% or so of the death rates of pows under the tender care of the japanese.

    Certainly more starvation and beatings occurred by japanese hands than by German hands. Medical treatment was almost nil--from the japanese, while the Germans took enough care to put pows in even civilian hospitals.

    Case in point: Currently I am in touch with a man who was an American fighter pilot who was shotdown over Holzkirchen Airfield in early 1945. To this day--Bob (the US pilot) is searching for the German officer who kept him as a guest in his quarters for 3 days-hiding him from the SS and Gestapo. This German Officer risked his own neck by getting Bob away from the area and into a hospital to have his injuries tended. I am mainly in contact with his sister--Mrs Anne Hobbs.

    Erich Brown knows who I am talking about and probably knows more about this than I do--as he has been in touch with these good people in the past.

    I also know from what I learned about my own Grandfather--several German and American vets--and some descendants to crewmembers of U 181 and the SS Fort Lee. I simply have too many positive accounts of Germans correctly treating allied POWs--and usually directly from the pows themselves to be able to harbor any ill will towards the Germans as a whole.

    I left out the Germans mistreatment of russian pows because of the fact that it being wellknown but also do tom the fact that the Germans ad Russians fought a much different war than the Germans and the Western Allies did.

    I by no means meant that the mistreatment of God knows how many Russian pows (by German hands) should be forgotten--I will never forgive the Germans for that--nor for the "Jewish Final Solution" nor for the Malmedy Massacre or the Massacre of about 100 British soldiers in that barn in what was it--in France or Belgium by some Waffen SS wacko.

    Simply--the Germans treated Western allied pows much better than their japanese counterparts.

    Perhaps I generalized too many japanese soldiers in my statement, but I still stand by what I said. I will never forgive the japanese for bombing Pearl Harbor--nor for the Bataan Death March. There are other things I could list as well against both Germans and japanese but to keep it shorter (if possible).

    I DEFINATELY respect your opinion about Germans as I hope mine is about the Japanese. I have way too much in common and know appx 600 German vets to be able to think of them differently than I do.

    I admit--I know very few japanese vets and I cannot put all of them into the same catagory as all being evil--totALLY wrong and impossible to do so. I do know that many allied pow was starved needlessly by the japanese and NOT given medical treatment when needed or at all. I do know the situation was much better for a Western Ally to be a pow of the Germans.

    No offense meant Ron ;)
     
  10. Shmavis

    Shmavis recruit

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    Approximately 10 million Chinese civilians died in the war. Check out the "The Rape of Nanking". Great stuff is in there. *shudder*
     
  11. Ron

    Ron Member

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    yeah i agree as well that allied POWs were much better treated by germans than by Japanese.
    I guess my point was both army's did pretty nasty stuff. and thus i looked down upon both sides for it.
    hey it's nice to disagree with someone and still have a good discussion hehe see ya later Carl ;)
     
  12. Andreas Seidel

    Andreas Seidel Member

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    Perhaps we can agree that the chance of a Japanese soldier having comitted a war crime is larger than that of a German or Russian, which in turn is larger than that of a Brit, Frenchman or American? :)

    BTW, Japan is not permitted to have any armed forces according to its constitution, but Japan has the third-largest "defence" budget in the world.
     
  13. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Ron---this is one of the reasons I love this forum--people can agree to disagree on things and still come out smiling. See: :mad: OOOPS I meant :cool: ;) :) :D

    Great post Andreas ;)
     
  14. richard g

    richard g Member

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    The Japanese routinely killed prisoners, including by using them for bayonet practice. They also tried tying injured prisoners to trees etc so as to ambush any would be rescuers.

    One big reason why more were not charged with war crimes was the tricky question as to whether or not their Emperor should be tried. However he was thought to be essential as an authority for post-war obedience and reconstruction. So he wasn't :mad:
     
  15. Panzerknacker

    Panzerknacker New Member

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    I have to get my two cents in here.
    One famous story is that a simple RAAF fighter pilot flying a Beaufighter against Japanese Coastal Shipping in Rabaul i think it was, he was shot down and taken prisoner by several Jap soldiers, an officer assumed control of him.
    Within an hour, he was blindfolded, made to kneel, and beheaded.
    Where is the justice.?????
    I know of one repugnant incident when a U-Boat skipper machine-gunned survivors in the water. One Incident!!!
    The Japs did this as a matter of course.
    And look back to Pearl Harbor---tehy strafed men in the water for hours!!!!

    Sorry but this really gets me mad
     
  16. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Andreas--( ( this full post isnt directed at you either, just this first paragraph) ) I see your point. We all know that soldiers from every combatant nation committed somekind of war crimes. There was a Marine who liked to cut off the ears of japanese soldiers he killed and kept them in a leather bag as sic prizes of war. What happened was his Lieutenant found out he kept eare from dead enemies--he was ordered to dig a grave 6 feet by 6 feet by 6 feet( often and not so lovingly called a: @#$%^&%$ 6 by, by soldiers forced to dig them) ;) Either bury them or get courtmarshalled and sent to Levenworth Military prison. He buried the ears, and collected fingers instead. He was sent stateside to a mental hospital, where he stayed till his death in 1979. ((True story)) as told to me by a retired Marine Gunny Sergeant--who had served with this man.

    All war crimes are senseless.

    We all know that when war crimes are being talked about--that VERY unfairly--mainly German soldiers are being talked about--villianized--and the only ones being accused-of committing war crimes. We all know that that is a big falsehood. Im ny humble opinion--anyone from any nation cought in the act of a war crime--should be shot on the spot.

    I know too many German vets--to ever think of but just a very minority of ww2 German soldiers as being a bad person--same goes for American vets. My experiances and time I spend with German vets--only goes to prove to me that they are just like the average American G.I., the average British Tommy--Australian or Canadian soldier--as im sure there was a nice large number of very correct and decent japanese soldiers.

    The thing that really irks me about the japanese soldiers conduct--is that many really had a sad lacking of--the correct conduct. They were tought never to surrender--and with captured enemies--that they were cowardly subhumans and dealt with as they saw fit. I think mainly for Germans mistreatment of Russian soldiers stems from many things.

    For instance: the War on the Eastern Front being much larger in scale--more intense--they had to have a different way to fight it.

    Now to compare the Germans soldiers conduct on the Eastern Front with that of a movie I just watched yesterday--3rd time.

    I just watched Black Hawk Down yesterday--again, and it made me think about a few things like:

    I can understand why the war between the Germans and the Russians was much more brutal and NOT for prejudiced reasons.

    In the movie I watched--there are many scenes of G.I.s being shot in the back--not from running away--but holding their ground. The comparison I make is: I see much more clearly now--why the war was much more brutal on the Eastern Front because, had I been a German soldier at that time--and witnessed the backstabbings--throats being slit on sentrys--etc--by the Russians or Partisans--. Having been tired of my comrades being killed in such a way--I would become incensed with anger--and would want to avenge the killings of my comrades.

    Had I been there in Mogadishu, and seen what was happening to my comrades--I dont think I could have restrained my feelings very well and cut loose on the somali militiamen. It really sickens me and ticks me off to see(as had actually happened) the somali militiamen, stripping the dead G.I.s and dragging their bodies through the streets like the uncivilized madmen that the somalis were.

    I dont know if anyone remembers that helocopter that was shot down in Iran back in 1979-1980--in which either 8 or 18 US servicemen were killed, their bodies stripped naked--ropes tied on them--dragged through the streets. :mad: If that wasnt enough--many of the iranian trash--threw stones at their bodies--spit on them, and tried to rip their bodies to shreds with their fingernails--I can NEVER forgive those pieces of trash responsible for that crime. This was all filmed by iranian media--and seen over here. :mad: :mad:

    I have no troubles in seeing why the war was much more uncivilized in the East--and hold absolutely nothing, against any German soldier who tried to defend himself. I know sever East Front vets whom i am also friends with. Knowing these vets like I do--I cant ever seeing these men as doing more than their duty--and to do wat it takes to stay alive and to keep their comrades alive.

    I fully agree with you Andreas--Richard and Ryan. ;)
     
  17. WALT

    WALT Member

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    Well let me say from the git-go, that I will probley make a lot of you mad....I have noticed that in the last twenty years a move towards thinking of all the combatsents of the war as equel, that they were all just soldiers doing their duty...perhaps,but the way i see it, the soldiers of the axis were responcible for the deaths of between 50 and 60,000,000 human beings. They supported the people who wanted to rule and or inslave the world.....the reason the war was so brutal in russia, is because the nazies considered themselves far better than the russians, and shot them down like dogs. men, woman, and babbies.....Has the World forgotten this.....The story was the same with the Japanese....only they slautered the Chinese, the Koreans, the Burmese, the Philipinneo;s....and the list goe's on.....How can you compare the moral behavior of the nazi's and the Japs to the Soldiers of the Allies ?...I am well aware of of fact that thier were Japs and Germans who were decent Men, I know that some of them probley died at the hands of thier own people because of it....BUT.....These two peoples, as a whole DID...support the rabbid animals who started that War....and I dont see how the Hell...anybody can not agree with that, or how they can just look past it, and admire the Damn Germans because they had good tanks, or pretty uniforms.....On another topic, I said that I would remember the men who gave their lives in the War.....I was not talking about the GodDamn Germans or the Japs....they killed 300,000 of my Countrymen....thats what it took to stop the evil from killing 60,000,000 more...if by chance, a vet of the axis powers happens to read this....and if you were a good man, then you know who you are, and you can be proud. But you also know that your cause was a rotten one........as for Carl, and Don and all you other guys, I dont mean to insult or to make you hate me.....I just dont agree with you....thats what forums are for....as for the Nazi's and Japs (as a whole)....to Hell with em !
     
  18. Ron

    Ron Member

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    i understand what your saying.
    Although i have to say..i think there really is no problem in liking german weapons, or japanese ones for that matter. for as long as the people don't embrace or defend axis philosophies and actions then everything is fine. the equipment didn't do the deeds...the people did the deeds.
    People are facinated by the axis...even me in a sense. It's perfectly fine to study the axis and their equipment.
    Also when people talk about axis vets...they really are not defending what they fought for...they are just understanding that they did suffer nonetheless. They respect the german or japanese man who went out for his country not the war criminal of course.

    Maybe you should read "The Forgotten Soldier" It is about a german soldier who fights on the eastern front. He commits no atrocities. and suffers a great deal. Now in no way do you feel what he was fighting for was good...what the book showed me...was that there really were many MANY good germans who were fighting for survival and because they were drafted, or simply because of their country. I learned that these people though misguided through mountains of propaganda were indeed human and had feelings (not counting the war criminals) I learned they were not proud of what they fought for later on..but they were proud they fought honorably at least. It's a very interesting book..you read it and you forget he is a "bad guy"(german) because they act and say the same kind of things americans would say...and when in battle i actually find myself hoping he is ok and cheering when something goes his way...but then you realize...wait he's the enemy. Then I realized how tragic the war was. It is sobering.

    [ 03 May 2002, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Ron ]
     
  19. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Great posting Walt--and it certainly didnt make me angry. I respect your opinions as I hope mine are. Also, I definately could not hate you for posting what you see right to post--nor do I think anyone else would either.

    There were more like 400,000 Americans Killed in WW2 with abot 90,000 still missing in action.

    The Axis were responsible for millions of killings and other related deaths--not 60 million. The Russians alone were responsible for at least 50 million, the Germans and japs--not even half that number.

    I can compare German behavior with that of the American, British and Frainch, because for the most part--MOST German soldiers in ww2; were as decent as any G.I. or any Tommy.

    I personally know many many vets from both sides, and I certainly do believe them in what they say to me--THEY were there--I was not. Who am I NOT to believe what I am told????

    I KNOW for a fact that, yes nazism was fully supported........but only by about 10% or less of the German population. In ww2, Germany had a population of some 80 million souls. The nazi party at its highest peak, only had maybe 6 million members. Not much really considering the number of people living there.

    Its true that many military men were members of the nazi party--but nowhere near a high percentage of German soldiers were ever in the nazi party.

    If one was a member of the Allgemeine SS ((General SS)) (the guys who marched around in the all black uniforms) these all were members of the nazi party. These guys were what you could call "Political Soldiers" and were looked down upon by most of the members of the Wehrmacht and were very disliked. The Waffen SS ((Armed SS)) were the ones who did the fighting on the front lines. At first--the Wehrmacht hated them as well. As the war went on--even the most devout of SS haters--began to really respect them for their fighting abilities. More often than not, regulas Heer units wanted a Waffen SS unit near tham instead of a brother Heer unit--as they knew these men were the Elite of the elite.

    Yes, the Waffen SS had nazis in their ranks--but only about 6% were nazis--about equal or less--than the percentage of all Germans were.

    As for branches of the Wehrmacht like the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe--if a person was in the nazi party and wanted to join one of these services--it was required that he resign from the nazi party before he was allowed to join--A VERY famous case in point: Uboat Ace and later, West German Navy Admiral and Admiral in the United Nations forces: Erich Topp, was a member of the nazi party--but resigned in order to be in the Kriegsmarine. Another famous case in point: Otto Kretschmar--another top scoring uboat ace, was once a nazi party member--but resigned so he could join the German Navy.

    As a fellow American--I do agree with you. But as Paul Harvey would say: "Thats the rest of the story". What I just mentioned up there. ;) [​IMG]

    I forgot to mention, I personally know a man who was a nazi in ww2--a member of the Belgian nazi party and member of the Waffen SS.

    This man and I are personal friends--I had visited with him and his wife when I was in Germany in late 2000.

    This man was in Sturmbrigade Langemarck--was stationed on the Leningrad Front. He is also only about 5 feet 2 inches tall, but is as brave as any American Medal of Honor Recipient, or as brave as any member of the British Empire who was awarded the Victoris Cross, or the George Cross, as brave as any Frainch who won the Croix de Guerre with Palm, as brave as any Russian soldier to win the Hero of the Soviet Union or the Order of the Red Banner. This man is a Knights Cross Recipient.

    One did NOT get to be a Knights Cross Recipient, if he was a cold-blooded killer. This man who was wounded 5 times--cut off and alone behing russian lines for 3 days--no food--no water--no medical care and no help--single-handedly knocked out 17 Russian T-34 and JS-1 tanks--and conservatively, killed 100 russian infantry who tried to kill him.

    He was a Belgian nazi--but no murderer. I certainly do not agree with nazi beliefs--nor condone any but, did you know that if it were not for Hitler--such things as the German National Autobahn system would not have been created, bridges would not have been built--nor national parks created--just like Roosevelt did here in the US--with the Conservation Corps. They created national parks--built highways etc.

    Not meant to just single you out Walt-but I hope that in reading this--that you can understand where many people stand--and many more are beginning to understand--what had happened. Im not saying you do not--but just making sure you do see that every story has 2 sides.

    Before anyone can make a final judgement on anything--you HAVE to look at both sides of the story first. I have, and many many times. [​IMG]

    [ 03 May 2002, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]
     
  20. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Excellent posts here. My two cents worth here is that the atrocities commited are not forgotten. Blaming every individual Axis combatant for the atrocities commited by the few or even by their government is also wrong. Sometimes, we are bound to fight for our country even if we disagree with the reasons behind the war or if we don't even know why we are fighting. Case in point, Vietnam. Even today you have vets who either did not know what they were fighting for or agree with the country's policy but fought none the less only because it was their country. The same can be said for all WWII vets regardless of their nationality. Go figure, my grandfather was Spanish fighting for Germany in the Waffen SS against the Russians.
     

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