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Was there a third atomic bomb target?

Discussion in 'Atomic Bombs In the Pacific' started by blazo, Dec 4, 2002.

  1. blazo

    blazo recruit

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    Did America plan to use the atomic bomb on another Japanese city, if the war hadn't ended when it did?
     
  2. Peppy

    Peppy Idi Admin

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    Welcome to the Forums blazo!

    Hey man, no need to post the same topic more than once, it will get read eventually. :D ;)

    Ahh, another Canadian eh? (I had to say the eh!) The founder of this site is a bright Canadian, although, we've managed to lure him to the US for now.
     
  3. Sniper

    Sniper Member

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    Hey Blazo, welcome to the Forums.

    I have read a copy of a letter sent by General Thomas T. Handy the Acting Chief of Staff (dated July '45) to General Carl Spaatz, head of the US Army Strategic Air Force, regarding dropping of the bombs on Japan.

    In the letter Gen. Handy states that the first bomb will be dropped after the 3rd of August on either Hiroshima, Kokura, Niigata or Nagasaki. These being the Primary and Secondary target cities that had been selected.

    The letter also states that "additional bombs will be delivered on the above targets as soon as made ready by the project staff." It also states " Further instructions will be issued concerning targets other that those listed above", so presumably the US was prepared to drop a bomb on another Japanese city. They just hadn't decided which one.

    I wonder if anyone knows how many bombs were actually delivered to Tinian ? Probably more than we actually know about.

    ______________

    "Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza."
    Dave Barry
     
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    I once read that they had a third one in store there as well but I might be wrong.Anyway, this collection of articles gives the idea they could make a third one soon but it was not ready for action on Tinian itself.

    "In an August 2002 interview with Studs Terkel published in the British Guardian newspaper, Paul Tibbetts recalled something similar: "Unknown to anybody else--I knew it, but nobody else knew--there was a third one. See, the first bomb went off and they didn't hear anything out of the Japanese for two or three days. The second bomb was dropped and again they were silent for another couple of days. Then I got a phone call from General Curtis LeMay. He said, 'You got another one of those damn things?' I said, 'Yessir.' He said, 'Where is it?' I said, 'Over in Utah.' He said, 'Get it out here. You and your crew are going to fly it.' I said, 'Yessir.' I sent word back and the crew loaded it on an airplane and we headed back to bring it right on out to Tinian and when they got it to California debarkation point, the war was over."

    http://www.danford.net/third.htm
     
  5. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Whoops ! Just posted a reply in the 'WWII' thread...see that for a link to the operational order....

    Looking at other links, it looks like only two bombs were available for immediate use with a third being 'several weeks away'.
     
  6. Carl G. E. von Mannerheim

    Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Ace

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    Actually we did have a third bomb readily available to strike with, however i believe its designated target was Kobe, but i may be wrong.

    CvM
     
  7. gregm

    gregm Member

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    3 Atomic bombs were exploded during WW2


    1
     
  8. gregm

    gregm Member

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    try try again 1 NEW MEXICO 2 HIROHIMA 3 NAGASAKI
     
  9. Greg A

    Greg A Member

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    There was a third atomic bomb target. The next bomb would be ready by August 21st and the six targets on the list in order of priority were:

    1. Sapporo
    2. Hakodate
    3. Oyabu
    4. Yokosuka
    5. Osaka
    6. Nagoya

    Richard Frank "Downfall" p 303

    Why Kokura wasn't on the list I don't know considering it was the primary target for the second bomb, Nagasaki was the secondary target.

    Greg
     
  10. captbutler

    captbutler recruit

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    I was just told a story by one of my cousins. She told me that our uncle was to be the pilot on the third mission. He passed away many years ago. I know he was a pilot but he once told me that he never saw combat. Is there anywhere that I could verify her account?
     
  11. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    syscom3 and dgmitchell like this.
  12. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    There was definitely a "third" atomic bomb which according to original documentation I have seen, would have been ready for use against Japan by approximately August 19. This device was completed, it just had to be transported to Tinian and assembled before use.

    The US also had other atomic bombs in production; There is a memo of a telephone conversation between a Colonel Seaman of the Manhattan Project, and General Hull, of Marshall's staff, outlining the production schedule. Basically, the US intended to produce one atomic bomb roughly every 10 days, and use them against Japan. But Marshall was aware that there would be an issue of "diminishing returns" involving the use of the atomic bombs.

    See; http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/72.pdf

    There was also a "Targeting Committee" which was tasked with determining what targets to bomb. Se the following link for a long list of original documentation regarding the development and use of the atomic bomb.

    See: Documents Relating to the Development of the Atomic Bomb and Its use on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
     
  13. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Good info, DA
     
  14. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

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    I was under the impression that the US was going to be out of atomic weapons after the use of the 3rd weapon. There was not enough Plutonium available untill well into 1946.
     
  15. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    By the end of 45 the US would have built around a dozen weapons if the war had continued and Plutonium and Uranium production kept pace. The rate of construction would have accelerated after that. Since some of the reactors were operating at over capacity an accident resulting in loss of capacity was possible.
     
  16. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    Not true, as a perusal of the document links I posted will reveal. The US had come up with a way to use the available plutonium more efficiently in the bombs and decided to phase out the simpler, but less efficient, "gun-type" bomb in favor of the "implosion" device. Check out the memo of conversation between Gen. Hull and Col. Seaman, and it will become obvious that the US was capable of a quite ambitious (for the period) atomic bomb production effort.
     
  17. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    That is a mistaken impression. In addition to the data supplied previously by "DA", it should be remembered that although Kokura was the primary target of the Nagasaki mission, neither it nor Niigata were included on the new target list submitted August 14. That list, in order of priority was:

    Sapporo, Hakodate, Oyabu, Yokosuka, Osaka, Nagoya. (see Downfall, Richard Frank; p.303)

    After the first atomic bomb fell Aug. 6th, 1945, Hirohito and the military knew about that city's destruction only later that day, but were paralyzed by indecision trying to decide "what" had or "could" have caused this massive destruction, but did NOT send scientific teams to the area to take radiation readings. The were then relying on their information from German physicists and their own nuclear scientists who doubted it was an "atomic explosive". Consequently they didn’t even send a scientific team to either of the bombing areas until after the Nagasaki drop.

    Emperor Hirohito did not meet again with his supreme war council until about 11 a.m. Aug. 9th, within a few minutes of when the second bomb fell on Nagasaki. Vague newspaper accounts were published Aug. 8, describing a new bomb inflicting "considerable damage on Hiroshima". The Nagasaki Prefecture's governor only learned about the true extent of Hiroshima's devastation on the evening of Aug. 8th; from an eyewitness from Hiroshima, scant hours before his own area was targeted.

    "The Japanese military did not want people to know about the atomic bomb," said Tsuia Etchu, founder of Nagasaki's Atomic Bomb museum. (Etchu was an army officer in the city of Fukuoka when the bomb fell.) "If the bomb was not dropped on Nagasaki, the military would have continued the war," Etchu said. "I think dropping the atomic bombs shortened the war."

    On August 7th, the day after the Hiroshima bombing, it was undertaken to print and distribute millions of leaflets to other major Japanese cities warning of "future atomic attacks". Clearly not before the "atomics" were deployed. The leaflet dropping, and warnings to Japan by Radio Saipan began on August 8th, between the two "atomics". Nagasaki itself did not receive any "atomic" warning leaflets until August 10th, the day after its own bombing.

    Here is a link to the leaflets dropped on Japan:

    Truman Library: Translation of leaflet dropped on the Japanese

    On the front side of another OWI notice #2106 (dubbed the "LeMay bombing leaflet") dropped over 35 Japanese cities on August 1st, 1945 was a picture of "B-sans" flying in formation. The Japanese text on the reverse side of the leaflet carried the following warning:

    "Read this carefully as it may save your life or the life of a relative or friend. In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed by American bombs. These cities contain military installations and workshops or factories which produce military goods. We are determined to destroy all of the tools of the military clique which they are using to prolong this useless war. But, unfortunately, bombs have no eyes. So, in accordance with America's humanitarian policies, the American Air Force, which does not wish to injure innocent people, now gives you warning to evacuate the cities named and save your lives. America is not fighting the Japanese people but is fighting the military clique which has enslaved the Japanese people. The peace which America will bring will free the people from the oppression of the military clique and mean the emergence of a new and better Japan. You can restore peace by demanding new and good leaders who will end the war. We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately."

    (See Richard S. R. Hubert, "The OWI Saipan Operation," Official Report to US Information Service, Washington, DC 1946.)"

    In the NARA files General Groves' memos to General Marshall exist.

    Leslie R. Groves' Memo to the
    Chief of Staff (George C. Marshall)
    30 July 1945
    MEMORANDUM TO THE CHIEF OF STAFF

    (a few paragraphs after Groves describes the successful Trinity test to Marshall)

    3. There is a definite possibility, [sensitive information deleted] as we increase our rate of production at the Hanford Engineer Works, with the type of weapon tested that the blast will be smaller due to detonation in advance of the optimum time. But in any event, the explosion should be on the order of thousands of tons. The difficulty arises from an undesirable isotope which is created in greater quantity as the production rate increases.

    4. The final components of the first gun type bomb have (already) arrived at Tinian, those of the first implosion type should leave San Francisco by air-plane early on 30 July. I see no reason to change our previous readiness predictions on the first three bombs. In September, we should have three or four [more] bombs. One of these will be made from (U) 235 material and will have a smaller effectiveness, about two-thirds that of the test type, but by November, we should be able to bring this up to full power. There should be either four or five bombs in October, one of the lesser size. In November there should be at least five bombs [more], and the rate will rise to seven in December and increase decidedly in early 1946. By some time in November, we should have the effectiveness of the (U) 235 implosion type bomb equal to that of the tested plutonium implosion type.

    5. By mid-October we could increase the number of bombs slightly by changing our design now to one using both materials in the same bomb. I have not made this change because of the ever present possibilities of difficulties in new designs. We could, if it were wise, change our plans and develop the combination bomb. But if this is to be done, it would entail an initial ten-day production setback which would be caught up in about a month's time; unless the decision to change were made before August 1st, in which case it would probably not entail any delay. From what I know of the world situation, it would seem wiser not to make this change until the effects of the present bomb are determined.

    L.R. GROVES
    Major General, U.S.A.
    Source: Manhattan Engineer District -- Top Secret (de-classified), Manhattan Project File, Folder 4, Trinity Test, National Archives, Washington, D.C.

    If we look at these it might extrapolate to these production estimates for bombs after August:


    Sept. 3-4 bombs
    Oct. 3-4 bombs
    Nov. 5 bombs
    Dec. 7 bombs


    So it seems that 18-20 additional bombs could have been produced and dropped in 1945-46 beyond the Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the aforementioned third bomb whose core was sitting on Tinian Island using the new target list from the top of this post.(this is the assembled case on Tinian needed only its completed core to be shipped from Los Alamos)

    Here is a timeline compiled from the NARA records:


    July 16: At 5:29:45 a.m. The "Gadget" is detonated at Los Alamos in the first atomic explosion in history. The explosive yield is 20-22 kilotons (initially estimated at 18.9 kt), vaporizing the steel tower.


    July 19: Oppenheimer suggest to Groves that the U-235 (target and projectile) from Little Boy be reworked into uranium/plutonium composite cores for making more implosion type bombs (4 implosion bombs could be made from Little Boy's core alone). Groves rejects the idea since it would delay combat use.


    July 23: Secretary Stimson, in Potsdam, receives a new target list. In order of choice it is: Hiroshima, Kokura, and Niigata. He also receives an estimate of atomic bomb availability: The uranium gun-type "Little Boy" will be available for delivery on Aug. 1st. The second plutonium implosion-type "Fat Man" should be ready for use on Aug. 6th , and a third implosion-type might be ready between Aug.17/24th. Additionally, since the production plants were finally approaching reasonable efficiency, three more cores should be available in September. With more being produced each month, topping off, or reaching seven a month or more by December.


    July 30; The nuclear components are inserted into "Little Boy", bomb unit number L11 on Tinian.


    July 31; The assembly of "Little Boy" is completed. It is ready for use the next day with only it’s initiator needing to be inserted.


    August 1; A typhoon approaching Japan prevents launching an attack with Little Boy. Several days are required for weather to clear.


    August 2; "Fat Man" (implosion type) bomb cases F-31 and F-32 arrive on Tinian (two half cases/one bomb), and "Fat Man" assembly begins. Oppenheimer cables Groves with a shipping schedule, and Groves reports that the next plutonium core would be ready for shipment on August 12 or 13, with a bombing possible on August 17 or 18.


    Aug.11; Oppenheimer believes that the third implosion case will arrive in the Pacific at this time (he missed by a day).


    August 12; the un-named (implosion type) bomb cases F-33 and F-34 arrive on Tinian, but the next completed plutonium core that is to be placed in the un-named implosion type sitting on Tinian is recalled from shipment when it arrives in San Francisco and returned to Los Alamos the next day, and not used until the Bikini Island "Operation Crossroads" test. This core and case becomes the "Able" bomb which is air dropped in '46 a year later.

    Aug.14; a fourth implosion case is completed, and this unit becomes "Baker" in the Bikini "Crossroads" tests of ‘46 when it is exploded underwater.

    But, the fact is that production of both U-235 and Plutonium isotopes was curtailed after the collapse and surrender of the Japanese Empire, however if (giant IF) Imperial Japan had remained an enemy force, even those numbers would and could have been increased. Both Hanford and Oak Ridge were just "hitting their stride" in production when they were slowed up so much that actually there were only nine atomics constructed in the whole coming year. The western allies had access to millions of tons of U-238 in the Canadian Bear Lake mines, the Colorado Plateau, and the best source of high-grade ore in the world; the Belgian Congo. And, the western allies had perfected the "purification/enrichment" processes necessary for producing fissionable material of weapons grade.

    Now even though the production of atomics had been curtailed after the Japanese surrendered, there were NINE atomics in stockpile by the date of the Crossroads tests of 1946, and over 100 in reserve by the time the Soviets exploded their first in 1949. There were even four un-used "gun-type" uranium bombs which were dismantled in 1949; and used in the new Mk-4 mass produced and variable yield composite design. This was the design rejected by Groves before the first atomics were dropped, the delay in producing them would or may have extended the length of the war.
     
  18. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    Thanks to both DA and Clint for the detailed information. I had heard about the third bomb, but was not aware of the sequence proposed for later bombings. The scary part is just how little the US leaders and scientists understood what would happen. I shudder when I think of the chances they took, though I understand the reasoning behind the decision.
     
  19. mac_bolan00

    mac_bolan00 Member

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    time mag said the second japanese target was kyokosuka but weather (or was it fighter) conditions there caused the attack to be diverted to nagasaki. i think niigata was also in the list. basically, secondary cities that have not been firebombed.
     
  20. Half Pint

    Half Pint Member

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