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What is Towing this 57mm AT Gun in Maastrict?


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#1 Ruud

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:04 PM

Well as i already told in my introduction, I am from the Netherlands. I live in Maastricht. I was looking for pictures about the liberation of Maastricht. Looking for a subject for a model diorama. And i found this picture were its all about:
http://www.oldhickor...117th Co. C.jpg

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I know its Maastricht, i know is taken on 13th september 1944,i know there are GI's patrolling, i know the speed limit is 45km/h, the grass is still green, its a towed 57mm antitank gun but what i cant find out what it is towed by because of the #$%$%@name plate of the city....:confused:
So can someone tell me what vehicle is towing it? Is it a Dodge WC 62 of 63 or another vehicle (maybe an M8) Cold it be a GMC ? Any help is very much apreciated :P

Edited by Slipdigit, 17 February 2012 - 01:17 AM.


#2 Slipdigit

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:10 PM

I'm leaning toward an M-8 with the rear fenders removed, but I would take the word of the vehicle wonks that lurk about here before I would mine.

I'm going to move this portion of the thread to a different section to increase the likelihood that you get an answer.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#3 leccy1

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:53 AM

The unit they are with may help a little.

A 57mm anti-tank gun and a patrol of American GI's from the 30th Infantry Division peer eastward toward Maastricht, Holland from the outskirts of Cadier-en-Keer in mid-September of 1944. The men belong to Company C, 1st Battalion, 117th Infantry Regiment.

A similar image possibly the same type of vehicle
Attached File  mal110.jpg   23.81KB   40 downloads

#4 brndirt1

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:55 AM

There is simply too little of the vehicle shown to really make a good I.D., but since the M8 is a six-wheeler with full coverage rear fenders, not a four wheeler and it is too difficult to see if that is a set of rear drivers, or just a "trick" of the photo since the right side isn't clear and the left is blocked by the soldier's leg, and really only four show here for certain, so my guess (and I do mean guess) would be on of the Dodge WC series. Most likely in the 3/4 ton size.
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#5 brndirt1

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 01:02 AM

The unit they are with may help a little.

A 57mm anti-tank gun and a patrol of American GI's from the 30th Infantry Division peer eastward toward Maastricht, Holland from the outskirts of Cadier-en-Keer in mid-September of 1944. The men belong to Company C, 1st Battalion, 117th Infantry Regiment.

A similar image possibly the same type of vehicle
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25209[/ATTACH]



that is a better shot there, and it might well be this series of Dodge with the top off and the windshield down.

Goto:

Oldtimer gallery. Trucks (Cars). Dodge T223 (WC62, WC63).
Happy Trails,
Clint.

#6 Slipdigit

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 01:41 AM

My friend Old Hickory tells me that M-8s did not normally have tow M57 and that most likely it is the Dodge.

He laughed when I told him that the pic was made on 13 September. His troop had already passed through the city on the 12th was out the other side.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#7 SKYLINEDRIVE

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:37 AM

Definitely no M8 as otherwise the turret should show, it seems to small to be an M20 so my bet would be a WC62/63.

#8 Highway70

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:16 AM

I think it is an M8. It does have 6 wheels (there is a wheel partially hidden by the soldiers leg and another partially hidden by the sign post) and that could be the turret showing above the soldiers elbow.

#9 Ruud

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:47 AM

Valkenburg
Slipdigit, you said your friend was in Valkenburg, this link is to pictures taken by local Photographer (still has a shop there)
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#10 SKYLINEDRIVE

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:00 AM

I think it is an M8. It does have 6 wheels (there is a wheel partially hidden by the soldiers leg and another partially hidden by the sign post) and that could be the turret showing above the soldiers elbow.


I beg to difer, in that case both soldiers would have to be giants, the deck of an M8 is about shoulder height of a tall man. never could a man standing next to an M8 be taller then the overall vehicle. Why not simply accept the easy and logical solution, it's a Dodge WC 62/63 the vehicle that was generally employed for towing the 57mm M1 AT gun.

Edited by SKYLINEDRIVE, 18 February 2012 - 06:20 AM.


#11 rkline56

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:31 PM

My friend Old Hickory tells me that M-8s did not normally have tow M57 and that most likely it is the Dodge.

He laughed when I told him that the pic was made on 13 September. His troop had already passed through the city on the 12th was out the other side.


JW,
Old Hickory has a mind like a steel trap to remember his position on 12SEP44. All the Best to you both.
" I have heard. You are the grey rider. You would not make peace with the Bluecoats. You may go in peace." Chief Ten Bears

#12 Slipdigit

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:11 PM

JW,
Old Hickory has a mind like a steel trap to remember his position on 12SEP44. All the Best to you both.


When we were talking, gathering information for the book, he did very well. Some dates he knew to the day, such as when his friends were killed. Other incidences, he usually knew within the week. Sometimes he would say "Oh, that was after X, but before Y," then have to think a bit before pinning down a closer date. He said oftentimes that he did not know where he was, so it was hard to pin a date to a location.

I found the 30 Recon's After Action Reports after I had finished the first draft of the book and when I went thought it, I found that with one or two exceptions, he was on the mark about when things happened. There were a good many dates that I was able to verify using using the AAR, such as when he and another man captured 17 Germans in France in late August, 1944 and the time he thought he was about to be killed by a German tank. That last one, he had down to within 3 days before I could pinpoint it. He could not get any closer as he said the days had run together since they had been awake for a good part of time, even at night. That was in October, 1944.

Other dates I was not able confirm, such as when he ate cheese and crackers with a 8 or 9 year French girl in the drive across France. All he remembers is that it was after they crossed the Seine. A lot of the things he did in the race across Germany run together, too, except for the death of one of his good firends on 12 April, 1945 in a small village on the road to Magdeburg. That date he has never forgotten, nor 2 September, 1944 when another good friend and "the best soldier I ever knew" was killed near Tournai, Belgium.

I've started talking with publishers. We'll see how it goes.
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Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#13 Ruud

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:30 PM

Slipdigit,

Would you be so kind to tell Old Hickory that i still am very thankfull to him and all of his comrades who risk our gave their lives to liberate us. Thank you !

#14 Ruud

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:41 PM

Hell on Wheels komt terug naar België en Nederland

Pics of re-enactment and pics of veterans returning to Maastricht (sroll down)

#15 Slipdigit

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:58 PM

Slipdigit,

Would you be so kind to tell Old Hickory that i still am very thankfull to him and all of his comrades who risk our gave their lives to liberate us. Thank you !


Will do, Ruud. He is very fond of the Dutch.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#16 Highway70

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 05:39 AM

I beg to difer, in that case both soldiers would have to be giants, the deck of an M8 is about shoulder height of a tall man. never could a man standing next to an M8 be taller then the overall vehicle. Why not simply accept the easy and logical solution, it's a Dodge WC 62/63 the vehicle that was generally empoyed for towing the 57mm M1 AT gun.


You are mistaken on the height, closer to mid-chest below the arm pit, not shoulder height (of course heights of people do vary). The soldiers are closer to the camera than the tow vehicle not right next to it. The height of the camera in relation to the subject(s) makers a differance. A low camera relative to the subjects, which appears to be the case, makes the more the distance subjects look shorter and the closer subjects look taller. A high camera would make the distant subject look taller and closer subject shorter. I confirmed this by observing two identical pens mounted vertically, one approximately 6" from my eyes and the other approxinately 12" beyond it.

Twin Cities Assembly Plant | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

http://www.wwiivehic...ed-cars/m-8.asp

Edited by Highway70, 18 February 2012 - 06:03 AM.


#17 SKYLINEDRIVE

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 06:20 AM

The soldier inbetween the traffic sign and the road sign "Maastricht" is standing right next to the Dodge, the distance inbetwen the camera and the soldier is much bigger, so the optical illusion can't play. Let's agree to disagree. It's definitely no M8. I stand by the Dodge

#18 Ruud

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:33 PM

People, i more and more tend to assume it is a dodge WC62 pr WC63. I thank you all for thinking and posting. It is a great experience for me that you all welcom a new member like this ! Thank you very Much !!!

#19 Highway70

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:16 AM

The soldier inbetween the traffic sign and the road sign "Maastricht" is standing right next to the Dodge, the distance inbetwen the camera and the soldier is much bigger, so the optical illusion can't play. Let's agree to disagree. It's definitely no M8. I stand by the Dodge


The soldier is several feet to the right and also probably slightly behind the vehicle (thus closer to the camera).

Look between the sign and the soldier, the top of the vehicle appears to be above his shoulder. It blocks the view of the tree in this area. (the top of the turret). There is a dark area on the vehicle just above soldier's elbow. (the demarcation between the top of the hull and the bottom of the turret).

Look at the rear wheels. The rear most wheel looks to be slightly inset (closer to the center of the vehicle) than the wheel in front of it. I don't know the reason for this appearance, but have seen this in other photos of M8's and M20's. (edit, after some thought I have decided that this is an illusion caused by the angle of the vehicle to the camera. The appearance would be similar for any 6x6 vehicle.)

While the closer the subjects are together the less effect the height of the camera on the relative appearance of their heights, the effect I describd is true even if the subjects (pens in my experment) are touching.

Edited by Highway70, 19 February 2012 - 01:12 PM.


#20 Takao

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:19 AM

Am I the only one to notice the Dodge WC-62/63's taillight/reflector that is visible just above the AT-gun's left tire and the Maastricht sign? It is way to low and out of place for the M-8/M-20.

Also, note that the edge of the truck(visible by the tailight, is straight, if it was an M-8/M-20 it should be slightly angled.

What Highway70 is calling a "turret", is likely the two wooden slats that were usually mounted on the sides of the truck. Especially since you can see 2 separations, the first is just above the soldier's elbow, and the second is about the middle of the upper-arm.

Edit-

The soldier is several feet to the right...

Hogwash! The soldier is standing right where the paved road meets the dirt, the Dodge is about one or two feet in on the paved road. This, in my book, does not equal "several feet", but only a "couple" of feet.

Edited by Takao, 19 February 2012 - 06:31 AM.

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#21 Highway70

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:18 PM

Takao

I concede. Your analysis is more accurate than mine. I looked at the photo again. What I thought was part of a turret is the sky showing between the tree leaves and the the top slat and I did not notice the tailigh before. It is a WC62.
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#22 T. A. Gardner

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:03 AM

It is almost certainly a Dodge WC 62 6 x 6 1 ton. That is the standard issue vehicle for infantry regiment antitank companies as their 57mm tow vehicle.

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#23 Slipdigit

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:29 AM

It is almost certainly a Dodge WC 62 6 x 6 1 ton. That is the standard issue vehicle for infantry regiment antitank companies as their 57mm tow vehicle.


LQQK who is back. Good to see you about the joint, Terry.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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