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Excellent article about a Vietnam Vet and going to war.


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#1 36thID

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:22 PM

A Vietnam vet come back home through his book. He speaks to our Iraq and Afgan vets regarding PTSD....

A war hero returns home, 40 years later - CNN.com
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#2 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:39 PM

A good find, Steve! I always asked myself how did the millions of soldiers of WW2 managed this?
Regards, Ulrich

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#3 belasar

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:50 PM

Undoubtedly there are some Vietnam vets who could say it better, but I'll take a stab at it.

WWII vets had and felt all the stress and sorrow that their later decedants did but with tthree very different points.

First everyone one in WWII was in the same boat, either you wore a uniform or performed some task vial to the war effort, no defferments, no exceptions.

The bad guys, were really bad guys. ( no offense Ulrich :)) Little moral ambiguity about why we had to fight.

Lastly there was no one of merit or notice that said otherwise, no Jane Fonda's.

War is war wether you use a broadsword or an automatic rifle, so how the ordinary soldier and his community view the conflict is the telling difference.

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Wars are rarely fought in black and white, but in infinite shades of grey

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#4 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:47 PM

:) No offense taken, PM!
Regards, Ulrich

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#5 TD-Tommy776

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:41 PM

A good find, Steve! I always asked myself how did the millions of soldiers of WW2 managed this?


Many of them didn't do much better. My great uncle came back after WWII and struggled with anger, depression, and alcoholism for the rest of his life. I'm sure that there were others who suffered similarly. It seems to me that there is a spectrum of ways that individuals dealt with their experiences in war. Some have no trouble. Others, like my great uncle, never were able to deal with it. I would guess that most fall somewhere in between.

Freedom is precious and many gave their lives for it. It is the duty of the future generation
to remember that sacrifice, and offer some sacrifice for themselves if Freedom is threatened.

Cecil Earl Workman, WWII Veteran, "L" Co., 129th Inf. Regt., 37th Inf. Div.


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#6 TD-Tommy776

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:51 PM

Lastly there was no one of merit or notice that said otherwise, no Jane Fonda's.


I would only disagree with you on two things. First, I would not use the phrase "one of merit" in the same sentence as the name "Jane Fonda". ;) Second, I would expand the last point to include the lack of fellow citizens spitting at them and calling them a "baby killer". Viet Nam vets had no ticker tape parades or mass celebrations when they returned. Their sacrifice and the sacrifice of their buddies who died was discarded like yesterday's trash. They didn't deserve that.

Freedom is precious and many gave their lives for it. It is the duty of the future generation
to remember that sacrifice, and offer some sacrifice for themselves if Freedom is threatened.

Cecil Earl Workman, WWII Veteran, "L" Co., 129th Inf. Regt., 37th Inf. Div.


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#7 Biak

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:53 PM

Thanks for this post! I've just put both books on my amazon wish list and will be downloading them tonight.

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#8 urqh

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:29 PM

I have no shame...In keeping recommending the book Bloody Hell whenever such a thread comes up here...Read it...Digest it...And ask the questions they ask.

British Army 1939-1945 - World War II Tribute Video

 

 

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#9 urqh

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:37 PM

Bloody Hell - Dan Hallock (Plough Publishing House, 1999)

After the Falklands War there was a triumphal parade in London. War wounded were barred from taking part. It was felt that cripples on crutches did not project the right media image. We often hear of Vietnam Veterans holed up in the hills. No one troubles to inquire why. They are dismissed as nutters. War novels glorify war, we rarely see the reality. An exception was Johnny Got His Gun by Dalton Trumbo published September 1939 as WWII broke out.

Those who experience the full horror of war rarely speak, they tell and retell their tales in their nightmares.

Bloody Hell attempts to redress the imbalance. By means of a series of interwoven sketches, fragments of letters from the front, soldiers reliving their inner hell, extracts from novels, Dan Hallock attempts to paint the full horror of war.

It is a book that can't be put down, which has to be put down. Bloody Hell is mind numbing. After the first 50 or so pages my brain was numb, I had to put the book down, even though my reading had been spread over several days.

If Bloody Hell just catalogued the horrors and atrocities of war it would be worth reading, but it goes much further. It looks at the sell, how people are seduced to go to war, either through patriotism or through their darker nature; the aftermath of war, the casualties suffered on the battlefield are only the beginning, many suffer flashbacks for years to come, others suffer permanent personality changes, if you don't suffer abnormal changes when subjected to abnormal conditions then you weren't sane to begin with; civilians suffer; the cover-ups and secrecy that surround war.

Doug was a graduate of the infamous School of Americas. He served most of his time as an assassin in Central America, part of the US dirty war. He has yet to come to terms with what he did.

Claude Eatherly commanded the path-finder aircraft that lit the way for the bombing of Hiroshima, who gave the order 'Bomb primary'. When the aircrews returned Claude Eatherly did not take part in the celebrations, he did not want to be a hero. Later he embarked on a career of crime, it was the only way he could be punished for the guilt he carried. Later he denounced the US use of atomic weapons and spoke at public rallies. He was immediately, with the connivance of his family, certified as insane (just like the Soviet system, if you don't agree with the system you must be mad) and locked away. The only ones who understood were his Japanese victims, who saw him as a victim too, he received little sympathy in the US. Ironically he died of cancer.

A distinct failure of the book is having graphically illustrated the hell of war in all its gory details it offers few solutions. A path is offered for those suffering from past wars - talk, enter Buddhist retreats and so on - but nothing to prevent the next war, from creating the next crop of victims.

Many of the veterans have found that part of their path to salvation is to do something creative that helps ameliorate the effect of past wars and if possible prevents future conflicts. Trees have been planted in inner city areas to create parks, trees have been planted in Vietnam to re-create battlefields as parks, many veterans have become anti-war campaigners, are working to help disadvantaged youngsters so that they do not fall into the clutches of the military machine.

The author is an enigma. Dan Hallock is an ex-Marine, but makes no mention of his own experiences. One is left wondering, is his extensive talks and interviews with veterans his own path to salvation?

Having stimulated the reader's interest, no follow up contacts are given. Something that should be addressed on the book's Web site.

For no rhyme nor reason other than to irritate the reader the text alternates between extremely small and a larger bold typeface. The book is small, ideal for the pocket. It would have been better if the book had been normal paperback size and the text larger.

Required reading for bloody hypocrites like British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook whose hands drip with the blood of atrocities committed in East Timor.

Highly recommended.

British Army 1939-1945 - World War II Tribute Video

 

 

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#10 urqh

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:48 PM

Again...unashamedly...If you like your punches pulled then this book is not for you...There is no glory...no heroics...no comic book patriotism. Its real by real folk..the Vietnam stories are some of the most heart wrenching I've read...And I can vouch for the Falklands wounded parade...I saw many tv's hit the floor in remedial centre that day.

But don't take my word for it...but it will challenge...And I expect some will choose to ignore even dismiss their vets.

This review is from: Bloody Hell: The Price Soldiers Pay (Paperback)
I bought this book over ten years ago, after I was discharged with disabilities I got through my service. At the time I thought I was the only one who had been dropped like a hot potato by what I had thought of as my family, but this book reveals the all-too-common neglect that ex-servicemen and women face when their services are no longer required, and reveals that many of us face the toughest battles of our lives AFTER we have been discharged. This is the truth about war, and military service, the kind of truth you won't find in the mainstream media, the kind of truth the recruiters won't want you to know. When I bought this book I cried the whole time I was reading it, then I went back and highlighted all the passages that I could directly relate to. More than a decade on I still cry when I go back and read the highlighted text.

I would love to see this book in schools and colleges, being used to give our young people a balanced view of what life can be like when you sign up to serve your country. I would certainly urge anyone considering a career in the forces to read this book BEFORE they go and sign their life away, and most importantly it should be read knowing that these words come directly from the mouths of those who have been there and done that...

British Army 1939-1945 - World War II Tribute Video

 

 

[URL="http://youtu.be/Zbp_4XBmD4w"]

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 


#11 693FA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:39 AM

a bit of an echo of Biak's post but .......Putting all three books on the to do list!!!
Thanks Steve and Urqh for the reading material;)
Regards,
Clint

#12 36thID

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:17 AM

urgh,

All I can say is you have my respect. I never served but admire and thank all that did.....

#13 Victor Gomez

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:39 PM

We should listen carefully to the best advice provided by the Viet Nam's veteran's experiences, as only they(or those who have served) can fully understand the PTSD of their service or the unknown other problems they also must have faced. I point out that the current veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan still have naysayers at their funerals, and that there will always be an undercurrent of non-support for anything that is done that can take its toll burdening those who have served. I as a civilian cannot presume to have an understanding of what soldiers must go through so all I can really do is give my utmost support to those who serve the rest of us with so much. It is within my realm to recognize that it is not only the veteran soldier himself, but his family and friends that also are a great part of the sacrifice and efforts that are made by the individual soldier and we should all see to it they are all included in what ever way we can to support, compensate, admire, encourage, whether it be in a political, or personal way to show appreciation and recognition for the sacrifices made. It has been my experience that many Viet Nam veterans are often ignored in that they are also serving with leadership and stellar performance in their communities and jobs over the years. This is an added contribution made by so many veterans from so many conflicts and we should realize that the veterans benefit us through out their lives in most cases.....not just during their terms of service in the military as this thread's subject clearly shows. We should recognize that they are always our best and always serving in most cases that I have witnessed. As it is always true the quiet people serving are not as often noticed as the ones that may be more apparent with their problems, never the less they should all be appreciated. God bless all our veterans.

#14 scipio

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:55 PM


From lost voices of WW2

"Major Peter Martin

2ND BATTALION, CHESHIRE REGIMENT

On the day the war ended, I felt an incrediblesense of anticlimax. From the age of nineteen, the German war had always been there - andsuddenly it disappeared.

I couldn't see much point in existence any more. Mywhole reason for being had suddenly gone.

I can remember weeping that night and I don't think Iwas the only person in the Division."


This Officer was in charge of my father's battalion. War seemed to affect them all differently - for better or worse.


#15 Marmat

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:35 PM

... isn't limited to military veterans, the police community's trying to come to grips with it too. Dealing with the aftermath of critical incidents in the past meant, a show of bravado, and sucking it up; showing emotion was a weakness, a liability, it was taboo. This often resulted in an us-vs-them mindset, that no one could understand unless they had been-there-done-that, which too frequently resulted in alcoholism, drug dependency, broken marriages and families, suicides. Now there are full debriefings, peer counselling, professional help; former taboos have been broken down, members are encouraged to talk about their feelings etc.

PTSD can come in different flavours, and professions, anybody can suffer from it from a variety of different causes. That said, as an oldtimer I have to admit that I've become aware of instances that lead me to believe it's also being used as an excuse for bad behaviour on occasion, but it's not up to me to judge...

"Where is the hunter when the reindeer has its hoof in a pool of lava?" - Russian Proverb, Bartalamyeh Fyodorevitch


#16 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:23 PM

I´ve downloaded the book yesterday and read more than the half of it and have to say it is really good!
Regards, Ulrich

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#17 USMCPrice

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:41 PM

Combat soldiers from all wars have suffered from PTSD, it just had different names, "shell shocked", "combat fatigue", etc. Many WWII veterans self-medicated with alcohol because heavy social drinking did not have the stigma that is associated with it today.

Victor Gomez wrote:

It has been my experience that many Viet Nam veterans are often ignored in that they are also serving with leadership and stellar performance in their communities and jobs over the years.


This was particularly prevelant in the first couple decades after the war because the press had painted Vietnam Veterans in a very bad light. If they said they served in Vietnam they were lumped in with the 10% that became criminals, drug abusers, psychotics, etc. The vast majority came home, led very productive lives, hid their service and their demons. Here is a good series of articles that debunks many Vietnam Vet myths.
The Vietnam War: everything you know is wrong (Part One) - National Conservative Politics | Examiner.com

Myths of the Vietnam War, Part 2: 'We had to destroy the village...' - National Conservative Politics | Examiner.com

Myths of the Vietnam War, Part 3: Age, race and class - National Conservative Politics | Examiner.com

Myths of the Vietnam War, Part 4: 'crazy Vietnam vets' a Hollywood invention - National Conservative Politics | Examiner.com

For an account of what it's like to deal with PTSD from an Iraq War veterans point of view, I highly recommend "Jeremiah Workman's: Shadow of the Sword". I know from first hand experience that one of the things that causes a great deal of stress in handling their war experiences for Iraq and Afghanistan veterans is people telling them why they went and what they did. When my oldest son came off active duty after serving in Iraq, he returned to college to finish up his degree. He had a history professor that continually preached left wing propoganda in his classes. Chris and another vet in the class were very angered by the things he said, and they often discussed what a tool the professor was. One day he'd had enough stood up in class and told the professor off, "I've been to Iraq, have you? You don't have a friggin' clue about this trash you're putting out as fact. You're telling us we fought for oil that's not why I fought. I never even saw any fuggin' oil, I fought to protect the US from these people that are trying to kill us. We found computers, disks, printed material and all types of intell detailing plans they had for plots to kill Americans, in America. I don't want my mom blown up because she decides to go shopping at the mall! My friends didn't die for oil, they died protecting morons like you! I've seen 50 Iraqi's blown into little pieces, while they stood in line to join the police and the next day 50 more lined up. They don't want those people there, but if they disagree they're killed. The people we are fighting are really nothing more than criminals." He picked his books up, left the classroom, and dropped his classes. Fortunately, his advisor was a good guy and when my son told him what had happened he went to the administration and fixed things and made sure he'd never have to be in that professors class again. He's still in the Marine Corps Reserves and just deployed last Sunday. Right wingers can be just as bad though. Shawn Hannity interviewed him and some other Marines in his unit when he made a trip to Iraq with Dick Cheney. When it was aired on Fox News we recorded it. There was a lot of footage shown of him and the other Marines, but he really only had interviews with of a couple of Air Force guys. My brother had taped it for us and transferred it to DVD. When we watched it with my son when he got home he went off. "WTF, he didn't include anything we told him? He talked to us for over an hour. That Air Force guy they showed had only been in Iraq for a week and neither of them had ever been off Al Asad. They never saw an Iraqi except the ones that worked on the base and have never been shot at. How the hell do they know what's going on with the war?" Turns out after he and a couple of the other Marines talked about it, they decided that what probably happened was that, even though they all said they supported our war effort and thought their service in Iraq was important for the security of the US, without exception. They did express anger at what they saw as war profiteering by KBR and some other contractors. From what they've told me I'd have to agree, what those people were doing was wrong! That should not take away from what they saw as a just cause, but it probably would have because that is what the politicians and anti-war folks would have focussed on. He went to see a psychiatrist for help, he only went to 5 or six sessions, said it helped and that it helped him put things in perspective. He's had several friends that he served with commit suicide, two hit him particularly hard. One a corporal was suffering with alcohol abuse and checked himself into the hospital at Quantico. They diagnosed him with PTSD, but he killed himself, in the hospital, before he even began treatment. The other was just last week, a sergeant. He'd been being treated for PTSD by the VA and had become addicted to the drugs they were using to treat him. They put him into a resident rehab program, got him off the meds and sent him home. I don't know why they didn't follow him up more closely, but he laid down in his bathtub so there wouldn't be a big mess to clean up. Covered his head with a sheet in case his parents were the ones to find him, and shot himself in the face. He was a really well liked guy, and squared away Marine. After he'd gotten out he'd gone back to college, got his degree in education and taught special needs kids. He'd continued to serve in the Marine Reserves. Everyone said, he was a great Marine and a great teacher, his demons just got him. What a waste. They buried him last Weds. and my son was on his casket detail, it was very hard on he, his friends and fellow Marines. I was really concerned that my son might meltdown, he had really been hurting and was in a strange mood for several days. In the end he just pitched a bad drunk with several other Marines/former Marines that had served with the sergeant, after the funeral was over.....
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"I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you f**k with me, I'll kill you all."Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
"Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary."Gen. Alfred Gray, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps

#18 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:53 PM

They all deserve our respects! RIP!
Regards, Ulrich

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#19 USMCPrice

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:29 PM

Belasar wrote:

The bad guys, were really bad guys. ( no offense Ulrich :)) Little moral ambiguity about why we had to fight.


Hate to be contrary Mr. Prime Minister but the bad guys in WWII weren't any more evil that those were fighting today. I've heard and read some stories about the things that some of these terrorist have done to civilians that don't go along with them that would even make an SS concentration camp guard cringe.

Victor Gomez wrote:

As it is always true the quiet people serving are not as often noticed as the ones that may be more apparent with their problems, never the less they should all be appreciated.


Very true Victor, very true.

Eugene Sledge's: With the Old Breed, is an excellent book. He wrote it as a way to deal with his demons from his war experience. If you've read it, he really saw some horrific things.

People have different thresholds of being able to deal with their war experiences. John Bradley, the Corpsman involved in the Iwo Jima flag raising dealt with it fairly well. Ira Hayes another flag raiser never dealt well with his experiences and died drunk in a ditch.
"I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you f**k with me, I'll kill you all."Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
"Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary."Gen. Alfred Gray, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps

#20 rkline56

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:50 PM

Hopefully major progress will be made in the treatment of this costly condition.

Good luck to all the returning veterans.

Edited by rkline56, 28 March 2012 - 04:15 PM.

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#21 TD-Tommy776

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:51 AM

Side bar - I believe the Christians first used the term "infidels" to describe their enemies during the earliest crusades.


From the Latin, infidelis, which means "un- (or "not") faithful". :)

Freedom is precious and many gave their lives for it. It is the duty of the future generation
to remember that sacrifice, and offer some sacrifice for themselves if Freedom is threatened.

Cecil Earl Workman, WWII Veteran, "L" Co., 129th Inf. Regt., 37th Inf. Div.


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#22 harolds

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:08 AM

I spent about 25 years as a psycho-therapist and I always had at least one person on my caseload with PTSD. Most of my clients were women who had been raped or otherwise traumatized. This is because women are more likely to seek help. As noted above, men try to heal themselves and it usually doesn't work. Actually, I should point out here that PTSD is NOT a mental illness. It is a condition. In fact, it is considered a NORMAL reaction to abnormal events. In fact, you don't have to be in a violent situation to get it, you only need to be exposed to the possibility of grave bodily harm (stress and fear) in order to get it. After a traumatic event or series of events where different people are exposed to the same traumatic situation, some have a harder time with PTSD than others. The reason for this is not really known. I should mention that PTSD is not the same as "shell shock" or "combat fatigue", which is something else intirely.

PTSD came into the national consciousness after the Vietnam War. One theory put forward was that while in previous wars, such as the two world wars, the fighting men spent several weeks on boats coming home and they were able to process their experiences and feelings with people who had been through the same events and thus had informal self-help groups. In contrast, soldiers returning from Vietnam were taken out of the field and shoved into a big aluminum bird and were home in 24 hours or less with no processing of what they went through. However, we now know that soldiers from every war undoubtedly had it. We know that some of them tried to talk to their spouses about what they went through but those spouses usually did NOT want to hear about these events, so the vet shut up, walled up, went back to work and tried to forget what happened. This usually worked-for a while anyway. So it really wasn't any different in some ways from Vietnam. What we do know is that when these traumatic events are not talked about and shoved into a corner of the mind and walled off then the brain separates the event from the emotion and they come out in different ways. That's why you can hear a vet talk about the most horrible experiences just like he was describing what he had for lunch and then at a different time has flashbacks and freaks out when he sees, smells, or hears something that triggers those memories. Sometimes there are emotions like fear, guilt and rage that pop out for no apparent reason. It is a difficult condition to have, but therapy works--it just isn't an instant cure.
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#23 urqh

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:49 AM

This is not the place I would have thought to either defend or object to the Iraq war. Suffice to say there were NO Al Quieda in Iraq before we invaded.

7th 7 attrocity in London was carried out as most of the UK plots by UK home grown and home born terrorists. Not Taliban, Iraqi born, Afghan or any other born buggers.

Left wing, right wing...has no place here.

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#24 Victor Gomez

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:43 PM

Thank you Harolds for your valuable insight into this PTSD, and I would agree that those who are involved in law enforcement may have this kind of experience as well, as I know classmates of mine that made this their career have had some very difficult periods of adjustment after having to use their weapons in self defense and faced the daily routines of the mayhem that often exists in their lives with what they are exposed to. No doubt they also deserve recognition for what is often a very trying and difficult career to survive and may also be equally difficult for family and friends to be a part of as well. There is an undercurrent of disrespect for law enforcement not unlike that the military faces as well so all the conditions are there to make things difficult. Despite this, many of them remain the most productive and stellar figures in most of the communities they reside in. I have seen many coaching baseball or other sports in their spare time which couldn't be better for those youth that get that valuable example in their lives.

#25 USMCPrice

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

This is not the place I would have thought to either defend or object to the Iraq war. Suffice to say there were NO Al Quieda in Iraq before we invaded.


The original post stated:

A Vietnam vet come back home through his book. He speaks to our Iraq and Afgan vets regarding PTSD....


It has also been mentioned that Vietnam was a different war and that the attitudes of the veteran's fellow citizens might have caused the Vietnam generation problems the WWII vets did not face. My story was to illustrate that todays vets face a more subtle and less overt type of ridicule. They're motives are questioned, "you're fighting for oil" or made to sound mercenary, that they were "fooled" or "tricked", or that they were forced, by socio-econimic reasons to have to serve. This was forcefully illustrated when John Kerry made his infamous statement: “You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

The vast majority of servicemembers had many other options, they chose to serve. My oldest son was an honor student in college, had a partial wrestling scholarship, and I was paying the rest. He dropped out of school to join the Marines and go to Iraq because he thought it was the right thing to do. His best friend had a full ride football scholarship as a linebacker, to either the University of Florida or Florida State, I don't remember for sure which. He passed on it to join the Marines and go to Iraq, for similar reasons. It is insulting to them, to attribute some other motive to the reason they served. The modern american military is better educated than ever before, their test scores and educational levels are well above the mean levels for the population in their age demographic. They are, as a whole smarter and better educated than the majority of their peers. Another lie is that the poor and minorities make up a large percentage of the force, forced to serve for socio-economic reasons. The fact is that minorities are greatly under represented in the US military today, compared to their percentage of the general population. The fact is that the poor make up a smaller percentage than at any other time in our history. Todays military is predominately from the middle class and the upper economic quintile of the population is actually over represented, and the lowest economic quintile is significantly under represented. When you question their motives for serving you are in a back handed way insulting them. The majority join for the most honorable and idealistic reasons. My son has another friend that was severely wounded in Iraq. A snipers bullet found the seam between his front and back ESAPI plates and his side ESAPI's. Once the bullet got in, it couldn't get back out and chewed up his internal organs as it bounced around. The medic actually had to reach inside him and individually wrap his internal organs with gauze. The guy flatlined several times before they evacuated him back to Germany and he went through dozens of operations and a couple years of recovery. One thing that bothers him is when someone insinuates his suffering and sacrifice was a waste because he was tricked into going to Iraq. Nothing angers my son quicker than when someone insinuates his friends died for oil. Oh, yes and there were Al Queda in Iraq before we invaded, they had spread to the Northern part of Iraq, Somalia and a number of other countries after the initial fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Here's and article on the guy I talked about that was wounded: Wounded warrior from Maxatawny serving once again

7th 7 attrocity in London was carried out as most of the UK plots by UK home grown and home born terrorists. Not Taliban, Iraqi born, Afghan or any other born buggers.


I do not question this, but all the hijackers on 9/11 were foreign nationals. It is also interesting that many of your homegrown "buggers" apparently, are actually spending some of their time in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban. Here is one of many articles that have appeared in the last couple years:
Exclusive: Army is fighting British jihadists in Afghanistan - Asia - World - The Independent

Left wing, right wing...has no place here.


I agree with this. When I wrote my previous post I had not originally intended to include the Hannity story, but when I was proofreading my post I felt it looked like I was beating up on the Left, because of the Left Wing professor. I included the Hannity (right wing news commentator) story to provide balance.
"I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you f**k with me, I'll kill you all."Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
"Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary."Gen. Alfred Gray, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps




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