Excellent article about a Vietnam Vet and going to war.

A Vietnam vet come back home through his book. He speaks to our Iraq and Afgan vets regarding PTSD....

A war hero returns home, 40 years later - CNN.com

 

A good find, Steve! I always asked myself how did the millions of soldiers of WW2 managed this?

 

Undoubtedly there are some Vietnam vets who could say it better, but I'll take a stab at it.

WWII vets had and felt all the stress and sorrow that their later decedants did but with tthree very different points.

First everyone one in WWII was in the same boat, either you wore a uniform or performed some task vial to the war effort, no defferments, no exceptions.

The bad guys, were really bad guys. ( no offense Ulrich ) Little moral ambiguity about why we had to fight.

Lastly there was no one of merit or notice that said otherwise, no Jane Fonda's.

War is war wether you use a broadsword or an automatic rifle, so how the ordinary soldier and his community view the conflict is the telling difference.

 

No offense taken, PM!

 

Many of them didn't do much better. My great uncle came back after WWII and struggled with anger, depression, and alcoholism for the rest of his life. I'm sure that there were others who suffered similarly. It seems to me that there is a spectrum of ways that individuals dealt with their experiences in war. Some have no trouble. Others, like my great uncle, never were able to deal with it. I would guess that most fall somewhere in between.

 

I would only disagree with you on two things. First, I would not use the phrase "one of merit" in the same sentence as the name "Jane Fonda". Second, I would expand the last point to include the lack of fellow citizens spitting at them and calling them a "baby killer". Viet Nam vets had no ticker tape parades or mass celebrations when they returned. Their sacrifice and the sacrifice of their buddies who died was discarded like yesterday's trash. They didn't deserve that.

 

I have no shame...In keeping recommending the book Bloody Hell whenever such a thread comes up here...Read it...Digest it...And ask the questions they ask.

 

Bloody Hell - Dan Hallock (Plough Publishing House, 1999)

After the Falklands War there was a triumphal parade in London. War wounded were barred from taking part. It was felt that cripples on crutches did not project the right media image. We often hear of Vietnam Veterans holed up in the hills. No one troubles to inquire why. They are dismissed as nutters. War novels glorify war, we rarely see the reality. An exception was Johnny Got His Gun by Dalton Trumbo published September 1939 as WWII broke out.

Those who experience the full horror of war rarely speak, they tell and retell their tales in their nightmares.

Bloody Hell attempts to redress the imbalance. By means of a series of interwoven sketches, fragments of letters from the front, soldiers reliving their inner hell, extracts from novels, Dan Hallock attempts to paint the full horror of war.

It is a book that can't be put down, which has to be put down. Bloody Hell is mind numbing. After the first 50 or so pages my brain was numb, I had to put the book down, even though my reading had been spread over several days.

If Bloody Hell just catalogued the horrors and atrocities of war it would be worth reading, but it goes much further. It looks at the sell, how people are seduced to go to war, either through patriotism or through their darker nature; the aftermath of war, the casualties suffered on the battlefield are only the beginning, many suffer flashbacks for years to come, others suffer permanent personality changes, if you don't suffer abnormal changes when subjected to abnormal conditions then you weren't sane to begin with; civilians suffer; the cover-ups and secrecy that surround war.

Doug was a graduate of the infamous School of Americas. He served most of his time as an assassin in Central America, part of the US dirty war. He has yet to come to terms with what he did.

Claude Eatherly commanded the path-finder aircraft that lit the way for the bombing of Hiroshima, who gave the order 'Bomb primary'. When the aircrews returned Claude Eatherly did not take part in the celebrations, he did not want to be a hero. Later he embarked on a career of crime, it was the only way he could be punished for the guilt he carried. Later he denounced the US use of atomic weapons and spoke at public rallies. He was immediately, with the connivance of his family, certified as insane (just like the Soviet system, if you don't agree with the system you must be mad) and locked away. The only ones who understood were his Japanese victims, who saw him as a victim too, he received little sympathy in the US. Ironically he died of cancer.

A distinct failure of the book is having graphically illustrated the hell of war in all its gory details it offers few solutions. A path is offered for those suffering from past wars - talk, enter Buddhist retreats and so on - but nothing to prevent the next war, from creating the next crop of victims.

Many of the veterans have found that part of their path to salvation is to do something creative that helps ameliorate the effect of past wars and if possible prevents future conflicts. Trees have been planted in inner city areas to create parks, trees have been planted in Vietnam to re-create battlefields as parks, many veterans have become anti-war campaigners, are working to help disadvantaged youngsters so that they do not fall into the clutches of the military machine.

The author is an enigma. Dan Hallock is an ex-Marine, but makes no mention of his own experiences. One is left wondering, is his extensive talks and interviews with veterans his own path to salvation?

Having stimulated the reader's interest, no follow up contacts are given. Something that should be addressed on the book's Web site.

For no rhyme nor reason other than to irritate the reader the text alternates between extremely small and a larger bold typeface. The book is small, ideal for the pocket. It would have been better if the book had been normal paperback size and the text larger.

Required reading for bloody hypocrites like British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook whose hands drip with the blood of atrocities committed in East Timor.

Highly recommended.

 

Again...unashamedly...If you like your punches pulled then this book is not for you...There is no glory...no heroics...no comic book patriotism. Its real by real folk..the Vietnam stories are some of the most heart wrenching I've read...And I can vouch for the Falklands wounded parade...I saw many tv's hit the floor in remedial centre that day.

But don't take my word for it...but it will challenge...And I expect some will choose to ignore even dismiss their vets.

This review is from: Bloody Hell: The Price Soldiers Pay (Paperback)
I bought this book over ten years ago, after I was discharged with disabilities I got through my service. At the time I thought I was the only one who had been dropped like a hot potato by what I had thought of as my family, but this book reveals the all-too-common neglect that ex-servicemen and women face when their services are no longer required, and reveals that many of us face the toughest battles of our lives AFTER we have been discharged. This is the truth about war, and military service, the kind of truth you won't find in the mainstream media, the kind of truth the recruiters won't want you to know. When I bought this book I cried the whole time I was reading it, then I went back and highlighted all the passages that I could directly relate to. More than a decade on I still cry when I go back and read the highlighted text.

I would love to see this book in schools and colleges, being used to give our young people a balanced view of what life can be like when you sign up to serve your country. I would certainly urge anyone considering a career in the forces to read this book BEFORE they go and sign their life away, and most importantly it should be read knowing that these words come directly from the mouths of those who have been there and done that...

 

a bit of an echo of Biak's post but .......Putting all three books on the to do list!!!
Thanks Steve and Urqh for the reading material

 

urgh,

All I can say is you have my respect. I never served but admire and thank all that did.....

 

We should listen carefully to the best advice provided by the Viet Nam's veteran's experiences, as only they(or those who have served) can fully understand the PTSD of their service or the unknown other problems they also must have faced. I point out that the current veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan still have naysayers at their funerals, and that there will always be an undercurrent of non-support for anything that is done that can take its toll burdening those who have served. I as a civilian cannot presume to have an understanding of what soldiers must go through so all I can really do is give my utmost support to those who serve the rest of us with so much. It is within my realm to recognize that it is not only the veteran soldier himself, but his family and friends that also are a great part of the sacrifice and efforts that are made by the individual soldier and we should all see to it they are all included in what ever way we can to support, compensate, admire, encourage, whether it be in a political, or personal way to show appreciation and recognition for the sacrifices made. It has been my experience that many Viet Nam veterans are often ignored in that they are also serving with leadership and stellar performance in their communities and jobs over the years. This is an added contribution made by so many veterans from so many conflicts and we should realize that the veterans benefit us through out their lives in most cases.....not just during their terms of service in the military as this thread's subject clearly shows. We should recognize that they are always our best and always serving in most cases that I have witnessed. As it is always true the quiet people serving are not as often noticed as the ones that may be more apparent with their problems, never the less they should all be appreciated. God bless all our veterans.

 

From lost voices of WW2

"Major Peter Martin

2ND BATTALION, CHESHIRE REGIMENT

On the day the war ended, I felt an incrediblesense of anticlimax. From the age of nineteen, the German war had always been there - andsuddenly it disappeared.

I couldn't see much point in existence any more. Mywhole reason for being had suddenly gone.

I can remember weeping that night and I don't think Iwas the only person in the Division."


This Officer was in charge of my father's battalion. War seemed to affect them all differently - for better or worse.

 

... isn't limited to military veterans, the police community's trying to come to grips with it too. Dealing with the aftermath of critical incidents in the past meant, a show of bravado, and sucking it up; showing emotion was a weakness, a liability, it was taboo. This often resulted in an us-vs-them mindset, that no one could understand unless they had been-there-done-that, which too frequently resulted in alcoholism, drug dependency, broken marriages and families, suicides. Now there are full debriefings, peer counselling, professional help; former taboos have been broken down, members are encouraged to talk about their feelings etc.

PTSD can come in different flavours, and professions, anybody can suffer from it from a variety of different causes. That said, as an oldtimer I have to admit that I've become aware of instances that lead me to believe it's also being used as an excuse for bad behaviour on occasion, but it's not up to me to judge...

 

I´ve downloaded the book yesterday and read more than the half of it and have to say it is really good!

 

Combat soldiers from all wars have suffered from PTSD, it just had different names, "shell shocked", "combat fatigue", etc. Many WWII veterans self-medicated with alcohol because heavy social drinking did not have the stigma that is associated with it today.

Victor Gomez wrote:

This was particularly prevelant in the first couple decades after the war because the press had painted Vietnam Veterans in a very bad light. If they said they served in Vietnam they were lumped in with the 10% that became criminals, drug abusers, psychotics, etc. The vast majority came home, led very productive lives, hid their service and their demons. Here is a good series of articles that debunks many Vietnam Vet myths.
The Vietnam War: everything you know is wrong (Part One) - National Conservative Politics | Examiner.com

Myths of the Vietnam War, Part 2: 'We had to destroy the village...' - National Conservative Politics | Examiner.com

Myths of the Vietnam War, Part 3: Age, race and class - National Conservative Politics | Examiner.com

Myths of the Vietnam War, Part 4: 'crazy Vietnam vets' a Hollywood invention - National Conservative Politics | Examiner.com

For an account of what it's like to deal with PTSD from an Iraq War veterans point of view, I highly recommend "Jeremiah Workman's: Shadow of the Sword". I know from first hand experience that one of the things that causes a great deal of stress in handling their war experiences for Iraq and Afghanistan veterans is people telling them why they went and what they did. When my oldest son came off active duty after serving in Iraq, he returned to college to finish up his degree. He had a history professor that continually preached left wing propoganda in his classes. Chris and another vet in the class were very angered by the things he said, and they often discussed what a tool the professor was. One day he'd had enough stood up in class and told the professor off, "I've been to Iraq, have you? You don't have a friggin' clue about this trash you're putting out as fact. You're telling us we fought for oil that's not why I fought. I never even saw any fuggin' oil, I fought to protect the US from these people that are trying to kill us. We found computers, disks, printed material and all types of intell detailing plans they had for plots to kill Americans, in America. I don't want my mom blown up because she decides to go shopping at the mall! My friends didn't die for oil, they died protecting morons like you! I've seen 50 Iraqi's blown into little pieces, while they stood in line to join the police and the next day 50 more lined up. They don't want those people there, but if they disagree they're killed. The people we are fighting are really nothing more than criminals." He picked his books up, left the classroom, and dropped his classes. Fortunately, his advisor was a good guy and when my son told him what had happened he went to the administration and fixed things and made sure he'd never have to be in that professors class again. He's still in the Marine Corps Reserves and just deployed last Sunday. Right wingers can be just as bad though. Shawn Hannity interviewed him and some other Marines in his unit when he made a trip to Iraq with Dick Cheney. When it was aired on Fox News we recorded it. There was a lot of footage shown of him and the other Marines, but he really only had interviews with of a couple of Air Force guys. My brother had taped it for us and transferred it to DVD. When we watched it with my son when he got home he went off. "WTF, he didn't include anything we told him? He talked to us for over an hour. That Air Force guy they showed had only been in Iraq for a week and neither of them had ever been off Al Asad. They never saw an Iraqi except the ones that worked on the base and have never been shot at. How the hell do they know what's going on with the war?" Turns out after he and a couple of the other Marines talked about it, they decided that what probably happened was that, even though they all said they supported our war effort and thought their service in Iraq was important for the security of the US, without exception. They did express anger at what they saw as war profiteering by KBR and some other contractors. From what they've told me I'd have to agree, what those people were doing was wrong! That should not take away from what they saw as a just cause, but it probably would have because that is what the politicians and anti-war folks would have focussed on. He went to see a psychiatrist for help, he only went to 5 or six sessions, said it helped and that it helped him put things in perspective. He's had several friends that he served with commit suicide, two hit him particularly hard. One a corporal was suffering with alcohol abuse and checked himself into the hospital at Quantico. They diagnosed him with PTSD, but he killed himself, in the hospital, before he even began treatment. The other was just last week, a sergeant. He'd been being treated for PTSD by the VA and had become addicted to the drugs they were using to treat him. They put him into a resident rehab program, got him off the meds and sent him home. I don't know why they didn't follow him up more closely, but he laid down in his bathtub so there wouldn't be a big mess to clean up. Covered his head with a sheet in case his parents were the ones to find him, and shot himself in the face. He was a really well liked guy, and squared away Marine. After he'd gotten out he'd gone back to college, got his degree in education and taught special needs kids. He'd continued to serve in the Marine Reserves. Everyone said, he was a great Marine and a great teacher, his demons just got him. What a waste. They buried him last Weds. and my son was on his casket detail, it was very hard on he, his friends and fellow Marines. I was really concerned that my son might meltdown, he had really been hurting and was in a strange mood for several days. In the end he just pitched a bad drunk with several other Marines/former Marines that had served with the sergeant, after the funeral was over.....

 

They all deserve our respects! RIP!

 

Belasar wrote:

Hate to be contrary Mr. Prime Minister but the bad guys in WWII weren't any more evil that those were fighting today. I've heard and read some stories about the things that some of these terrorist have done to civilians that don't go along with them that would even make an SS concentration camp guard cringe.

Victor Gomez wrote:

Very true Victor, very true.

Eugene Sledge's: With the Old Breed, is an excellent book. He wrote it as a way to deal with his demons from his war experience. If you've read it, he really saw some horrific things.

People have different thresholds of being able to deal with their war experiences. John Bradley, the Corpsman involved in the Iwo Jima flag raising dealt with it fairly well. Ira Hayes another flag raiser never dealt well with his experiences and died drunk in a ditch.

 

Hopefully major progress will be made in the treatment of this costly condition.

Good luck to all the returning veterans.