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The German view of US small arms in WW2.


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#1 syscom3

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:56 AM

Its kind of an opened ended question ..... but .....

What did the Germans think of US infantry weapons? I'm just referring to the rifles, MG's, mortars and bazooka.

#2 George Patton

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:33 AM

It appears the Germans had a high regard for the bazooka (or at least the idea). Having relied on anti tank rifles from the outbreak of the war, the Germans recognized they needed a man-portable AT weapon with a bigger punch. The M1A1 Bazooka saw service in November 1942 in Africa and in Russia (lend-lease variants) and several examples were soon captured. Evidently they liked the principle behind it: by the middle of 1943, the Germans already had their version (The "Panzerschreck") and continued to improve upon it until the end of the war.

As for the other weapons, I'm not sure. I've never heard of Germans using captured US weapons in large numbers. I've seen a few pictures here and there (one German NCO has a M1 Carbine in the famous "Battle of the Bulge" road crossing photos), but that's it. This could be due to poor availability of ammo -- no US calibres were used in German weapons nor were large amounts of American ammo captured. If a German soldier used a US weapon, finding ammo would be difficult.

As a side note: You can find many photos of Germans using captured SVT-40s on the eastern front -- they even issued a manual for it. Unlike US ammunition, large amounts of 7.62x54r ammo were captured supply dumps and surrendering troops from the early months of Barbarossa. Troops apparently appreciated the fast rate of fire that a semi-automatic rifle offered over a bolt-action rifle, so by this logic they would have appreciated the M1 Garand as well.

Best Regards,
Alan


#3 belasar

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:55 AM

I read somewher, but sadly cannot cite the source, that the M-1 Carbine was a favored trophy as was suitable for the late war combat style of German troops. (light, reliable and high rate of fire)

As for the other's they could take or leave them.

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#4 TiredOldSoldier

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:31 AM

I think the Polish BAR chambered for the Mauser cartridge were put in service, though the limited sustained fire capability of that weapon didn't match German squad tactics that were designed around a true LMG, the Belgian FN also produced athe BAR. For the other weapons lack of large stocks of captured ammo prevents any widespread use. The 81mm mortar was very similar to the German one but it's more likely they used the ammo than the mortar itself.
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#5 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:03 AM

I can only say what my Grandpa had told me. He said that they have been jealous to the M1 Garand as a very good rifle and if they were available ( means collected from death or captured soldiers) they took them and used them as long as they had the ammo. The Bazooka was also found for being worthy. The watercooled HMG´s were seen as good but to heavy.
Regards, Ulrich

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#6 harolds

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:00 PM

I know the Germans liked pistols and issued various foriegn models as well as domestic ones. Therefore, I suppose if they could have gotten their hands on a model 1911, they would have done so.

#7 SKYLINEDRIVE

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:18 PM

The germans used the 1911 in 45ACP on a wider basis, the Norwegian 1911, license made by Kongsberg. They even had the Norwegians continue the production during the war and the pistols were fielded under the designation Pistole 657(n). They all went to the units of the Armee Oberkommando Norwegen, I've seen two of them that must have been left on the Bulge battlefield, most probably by units that had been redeployed from Norway!

I think Gebirgsjäger hit's the nail pretty much on the head, the Germans used US weapons in a very limited way, when they were sure to get enough ammo and when their units chain of command allowed them to do so! In the klater stages of the war the Wehrmacht and the SS used an amazing array of "Beutewaffen" the panoly of small arms found after the Bulge is absolutely breathtaking!

#8 SKYLINEDRIVE

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:29 PM

I found this on axishistory forum:

The list with the Waffenamt's designations for US small arms, this does not mean that all these weapons were officaly introduced into german service, it only means that they were tested by the Waffenamt!

USA
Gewehr 249(a) Ex "Springfield Cal.30 Mod 1903" - Calibre 30
Gewehr 250(a) Ex " Ross Cal.30 Mod 1917" - Calibre 30
Selbstladegewehr 251(a) Ex "M1 Garand" (Semi-automatic rifle) - Calibre 30
Selbstladegewehr 455(a) Ex " U.S Carabin M1" - Calibre 30
Pistole 660(a) Ex " Colt Mod 1911" - Calibre 45
Revolver 661(a) Ex " Colt Mod 1917" - Calibre 45
Revolver 662(a) Ex "Smith & Wesson Mod 1917" - Calibre 45
Maschinenpistole 760(a) Ex "Thompson 28" - Calibre 45
Maschinenpistole 760/2(a) Ex "Thompson 28" (Without front hand-grip) - Calibre 45
Maschinenpistole 761(a) Ex "Thompson 21" - Calibre 45
Maschinenpistole 762(a) Ex "Riesing" - Calibre 45



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#9 George Patton

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:59 PM

I forgot to add that the Germans extensively used the Browning Hi-Power. Hi-Powers were built in Belgium before the war, and when the country was captured, production contined under German patrol. The Browning is possibily the only pistol to have been in production and used by both sides.

SKYLINEDRIVE: Any idea how the Germans would get their hands on a Riesing SMG? As far as I know, only limited numbers saw service in Europe (in the hands of the OSS) after the Marines largely rejected the weapon for front-line combat duties in the Pacific. Since it underwent testing and received a designation, I would assume that more than one was captured. I'm also wondering why and how they would get their hands on a Ross Rifle. The Ross was a Canadian-made example of stupidity from the First World War. I suppose it could have seen service with some resistance outfits or maybe some rear guard militias, but it still seems odd to include it on that list.

Edited by George Patton, 07 June 2012 - 02:04 PM.

Best Regards,
Alan


#10 Carronade

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:53 PM

Any idea how the Germans would get their hands on a Riesing SMG?

Perhaps we gave them to them deliberately???? ;)

#11 SKYLINEDRIVE

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:11 PM

........
SKYLINEDRIVE: Any idea how the Germans would get their hands on a Riesing SMG? As far as I know, only limited numbers saw service in Europe (in the hands of the OSS) after the Marines largely rejected the weapon for front-line combat duties in the Pacific. Since it underwent testing and received a designation, I would assume that more than one was captured. I'm also wondering why and how they would get their hands on a Ross Rifle. The Ross was a Canadian-made example of stupidity from the First World War. I suppose it could have seen service with some resistance outfits or maybe some rear guard militias, but it still seems odd to include it on that list.


Sorry, I can't bring hard facts, only some educated guesses! The Reisings were used by the Coast Guard and the Navy in the ETO (as well as by the Marines on Iceland in 1942) there you already have two possiblities. Then you will have to consider that some Reisings were delivered as part of the lend-lease program to the UK, Canada and the USSR. You mentioned the OSS, don't forget that many Résistance/Guerrilla movements all around the world also got Reisings from the OSS, alltough in much smaller numbers then the UD42! In my opinion the Résistance seems to be the safest bet!

AFAIK the number of weapons taken was not a consideration for small arms being tested or not by the Waffenamt. The purpose of the tests was as much finding new designs to copy, as to determinate if a weapon was suitable for fielding by teh Wehrmacht!

#12 George Patton

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:19 PM

Any idea how the Germans would get their hands on a Riesing SMG?

Perhaps we gave them to them deliberately???? ;)


Sabotage? ;) The marines had major issues with them. Although more accurate than the M1 Thompson, the tight tolerances and complex design of the bolt design meant that it was harder to keep clean, and would jam often. Not to mention that its wire stock made the STEN Mark II stock look like a luxury item! If I recall correctly, Col. Edson (of "Edson's raiders") ordered his unit's Riesings to be dumped into the sea.

Best Regards,
Alan


#13 syscom3

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:44 PM

What were the German views of the BAR? What did they as an army, tell their troops about the plus's and minus's of the weapon?

#14 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 08:00 AM

Don´t really know what they told their men, but for the reason that they´ve seen the Bren as a very valuable weapon i would believe that the BAR wasn´t seen in a bader light.
Regards, Ulrich

Horrido!

"We're surrounded. That simplifies our problem!" LtGen. Chesty Puller.

#15 George Patton

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:56 PM

I've seen a few pictures of Germans with BRENs, but never with BARs. I'm guessing that once again this was an availability issue -- the Germans would have captured a lot of BRENs following Dunkirk and Dieppe, and they did not have had the same opportunities to "collect" BARs.

http://www.ww2incolo...in_Ruhestellung

Best Regards,
Alan


#16 George Patton

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 03:26 PM

Here are a few pictures of Germans with captured US guns (found of the Axis History forum):

Thompsons:

Posted Image

http://forum.axishis...e.php?id=116075

M2 BMG:

Posted Image

M1 Garand:

http://forum.axishis...e.php?id=122839
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Best Regards,
Alan


#17 George Patton

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:26 PM

A few more:

M1 Carbine:

Posted Image

Another Thompson:

http://forum.axishis...e.php?id=171958

M1919 MG:

http://forum.axishis...e.php?id=174486
http://forum.axishis...e.php?id=174485

Best Regards,
Alan


#18 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 06:14 PM

Interesting to see that the most weapons were used by the FJ`s!

Edited by Gebirgsjaeger, 08 June 2012 - 07:54 PM.

Regards, Ulrich

Horrido!

"We're surrounded. That simplifies our problem!" LtGen. Chesty Puller.

#19 TiredOldSoldier

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:43 PM

A lot of the pics that look like Germans with BRENs are likely to be czech ZG 26 and ZG 30 that used the Mauser cartridge, though that one is definetly a BREN. I also fount the fact that most of those pics appear to be paras interesting, IIRC initially the Heer objected to having the LW and SS access to weapon stocks, so the use of "strange" weapons is more likely with those forces.
Truth is the first victim of conflict

#20 TD-Tommy776

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 11:43 PM

Another Thompson:

http://forum.axishis...e.php?id=171958


I would not want to be either of the two gentlemen on the right.

Edited by TD-Tommy776, 08 June 2012 - 11:44 PM.
7 - 2 = 5

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to remember that sacrifice, and offer some sacrifice for themselves if Freedom is threatened.

Cecil Earl Workman, WWII Veteran, "L" Co., 129th Inf. Regt., 37th Inf. Div.


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#21 USMCPrice

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 11:52 PM

What's this do? Oooops, sorry dude! Man that really has to hurt.
"I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you f**k with me, I'll kill you all."Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
"Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary."Gen. Alfred Gray, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps

#22 TD-Tommy776

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:14 AM

First rule of gun safety: Treat every gun as if it is loaded. F-A-I-L!
Second rule of gun safety: Never point a gun at anything you don't want to destroy. F-A-I-L!

Freedom is precious and many gave their lives for it. It is the duty of the future generation
to remember that sacrifice, and offer some sacrifice for themselves if Freedom is threatened.

Cecil Earl Workman, WWII Veteran, "L" Co., 129th Inf. Regt., 37th Inf. Div.


halvorsonpto129ir37id3.jpg

PFC Glenn W. Halvorson

bannereto776tdv2.png

PFC Norman L. Halvorson


#23 belasar

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:34 AM

I would not want to be either of the two gentlemen on the right.


I wonder what this does?...oops!

Dang it USMCPrice and I have been spending too much time together!

On second thought, I'm not sure I want to admit that!
Wars are rarely fought in black and white, but in infinite shades of grey

(Poppy is occasionaly correct, or so I hear)

#24 Gebirgsjaeger

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:22 AM

I would not want to be either of the two gentlemen on the right.


Oooh Fritz, there is something coming out of this tube! Whatpffffhhh.....
Regards, Ulrich

Horrido!

"We're surrounded. That simplifies our problem!" LtGen. Chesty Puller.

#25 gunbunnyb/3/75FA

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 08:19 AM

hey guys as far as i can tell that tommy gun doesn't seem to have a stick in it.




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