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"Jews screamed like Geese"


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#1 The_Historian

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:03 AM

"A suspected Nazi war criminal described how Jews ‘screamed like geese’ when they were shot, in a documentary set to be shown for the first time.
Jonas Pukas, a 78-year-old Lithuanian immigrant, even laughed as he said Holocaust victims 'flew in the air'.
He gave the disturbing police tape interview at his home in New Zealand in 1992 and the audio from it forms part of the film Nazi Hunter, which will be screened tomorrow.
The meeting was conducted by then Detective Wayne Stringer, who was investigating a list of 47 possible war criminals that the New Zealand government had received from the Nazi-hunting Simon Wiesenthal Centre.
Pukas died in 1994 at the age of 80."
Nazi criminal says Jews screamed like geese | Mail Online
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#2 LRusso216

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:50 AM

No matter how much I read or see, this kind of story still gives me chills. I'll never understand how "civilized" people could do this. I'd say thanks, but I'm not sure I'd mean it.

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#3 The_Historian

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 01:09 AM

No worries. I felt sick just reading it.
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#4 Sloniksp

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 01:58 AM

Those werent "real" Nazis, they were just fighting to free their country of Soviet occupation. They have Waffen SS parades today to commemorate just that. :rolleyes:
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#5 LRusso216

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

Oh, boy. Maybe they were just following orders and didn't really enjoy it?

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#6 syscom3

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 03:28 AM

I'll never understand how "civilized" people could do this.


What makes you think these war criminal scum are civilized? That's how I feel about it, to remain sane while reading about these horrid events.

#7 Kai-Petri

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 07:33 AM

"Despite his graphic description, Pukas denied taking part in the executions.
‘I only heard the people dying. I did not see it,’ he told Mr Stringer."

Well, I bet YOU scream like geese in hell now...
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#8 Victor Gomez

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:37 PM

Perhaps this is not related to this thread other than to demonstrate Nazi's still have an influence in our society today as this individual has been reported in Arizona as a "true Patriot" by the author of Arizona legislation and was allowed to engage in the rounding up of illegals at least a couple of documented times and was running a campaign for sheriff when this story occurred. How little the national media has covered the Nazi plan for Arizona that was revealed years ago. They have been 100% effective in attaining their goal of "taking advantage of the Arizona situation to increase hate for immigrants". Read how he came to an end with his political pursuits: Arizona Neo-Nazi Sheriff Candidate Killed Family, Self - ABC News

#9 LRusso216

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:07 PM

What makes you think these war criminal scum are civilized? That's how I feel about it, to remain sane while reading about these horrid events.

Too true. It's the only way I get through them as well.

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#10 LRusso216

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:10 PM

Perhaps this is not related to this thread other than to demonstrate Nazi's still have an influence in our society today as this individual has been reported in Arizona as a "true Patriot" by the author of Arizona legislation and was allowed to engage in the rounding up of illegals at least a couple of documented times and was running a campaign for sheriff when this story occurred. How little the national media has covered the Nazi plan for Arizona that was revealed years ago. They have been 100% effective in attaining their goal of "taking advantage of the Arizona situation to increase hate for immigrants". Read how he came to an end with his political pursuits: Arizona Neo-Nazi Sheriff Candidate Killed Family, Self - ABC News

I see your point, Victor. The same can be said for the monster who shot up the Sikh temple. I'm on my Nook, so I can't put the article in, but hate still exists.

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Lou


#11 Karjala

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:59 PM

Those werent "real" Nazis, they were just fighting to free their country of Soviet occupation. They have Waffen SS parades today to commemorate just that. :rolleyes:


You seem to want to mix the drafted Waffen-SS veterans, who actually WERE only fighting to free their countries of brutal soviet occupation with the war criminals. I can understand it, since you have been (dis-)educated in SU/Russia, but it still is totally incorrect.

The ordinary Waffen-SS veterans deserve their parades as well as the other soldiers. And I mean the veterans do deserve, not the organization.

Edited by Karjala, 10 August 2012 - 05:00 PM.
typo

"We do not want a single foot of foreign territory..." -Stalin
"The idea of a concentration camp is excellent" -Stalin
"I repeat that is in the interest of the USSR that a war breaks out between the Reich and the capitalist Anglo-French Bloc" -Stalin 1939


#12 Gunney

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:40 PM

Alot of my friends are Jewish and i respect them for it, but what happened in those concentration caps was just horendus, every time i watch a documentary or see a picture i cringe at the mear sight of it. I know it may seem a bit harsh but those who enjoyed Killing Jewish people should have all been hunted down and killed as quicky and as swiftly as possible.
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#13 LRusso216

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:04 PM

You seem to want to mix the drafted Waffen-SS veterans, who actually WERE only fighting to free their countries of brutal soviet occupation with the war criminals. I can understand it, since you have been (dis-)educated in SU/Russia, but it still is totally incorrect.

The ordinary Waffen-SS veterans deserve their parades as well as the other soldiers. And I mean the veterans do deserve, not the organization.

I think you are wrong. The Waffen SS was declared a criminal organization, so drafted or not, they were part of it. They deserve no recognition, in my eyes. They were criminals, and eagerly hunted Jews, and others who displeased them.

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#14 Kai-Petri

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 04:57 AM

The problem being also that in many countries other civilians hunted Jews, even killed them before the Germans arrived. And was it the Hungarians who in Odessa had their own Jews hunt and holocaust operation etc. Wehrmacht was helping in many places. In the west civilians also were helping in this process. It will be hard to draw the line....
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#15 Victor Gomez

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:52 PM

Let me say to make fair comparisons...........there may be German soldiers who only had good intentions and may not have been able to obstruct the corruption of the era for various reasons........they are equal to the people today who do not bother to inform themselves of the designs and goals of the like of the para-military Nazis like J.T. Ready and what they do to instill hate as that is a freedom we have here. In the end I will leave it to posterity to analyze who could have, and perhaps should have informed themselves, taken interest and opposed those things that are evil and always around to darken someone's else's existence. Where can one draw the line without creating a self incriminating circle. You see when I view the holocaust, it is WE as humanity that allowed this thing to happen in all its ugliness, someone who is yet alive must bear the cross, lest it be forgotten. When this evil exists to its culmination, I do not believe it leaves a path of innocent parties behind but rather those who were indifferent, allowing things to deteriorate until things get totally out of control. That is the legacy of hate, that the holocaust lesson should teach all of us.

#16 Earthican

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 04:33 PM

I think you are wrong. The Waffen SS was declared a criminal organization, so drafted or not, they were part of it. They deserve no recognition, in my eyes. They were criminals, and eagerly hunted Jews, and others who displeased them.

I think Karjala was drawing a distinction between the non-German Waffen SS volunteers who fought along side the Wehrmacht versus those that volunteered to help the SS Einsatzgruppen and run the death camps.

However the SS of any shade are deeply implicated in the crimes of the Nazi regime. None of them deserve a parade but the ones who fought and did not commit any battlefield war crimes need not be persecuted, just ignored.

#17 Karjala

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:08 PM

I think you are wrong. The Waffen SS was declared a criminal organization, so drafted or not, they were part of it. They deserve no recognition, in my eyes. They were criminals, and eagerly hunted Jews, and others who displeased them.


As I wrote before, I don't want to whitewash the Waffen-SS as an organization. One should still be aware, that many conscripts after 1943 did not have a choice. ALL they did was to fight the soviets - an extremely nobel cause if you ask me! And even before in 1941 the 1.200 Finnish volunteers did not join specifically the Waffen-SS - but the German army in general. It was against the will of the Finns that they were attached to the Waffen-SS. There they were excluded of the political training otherwise obligatory. Again all they did was to fight the soviets. None of them has ever been accused of any war crimes.

Here's some related quotes:

"After the war, in the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organisation owing to its essential connection to the Party and its involvement in war crimes and the Holocaust. The exception made was for Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted owing to their involuntary servitude."

"
Conscript divisions[/h] These soldiers from Estonia and Latvia were not volunteers[6] but conscripts which the German authorities had denied their wish to form national military units allied to Germany. Under such circumstances, these had either volunteered to the Wehrmacht and had later been forced into the Waffen-SS or were illegally conscripted by general mobilisations.[7] In an April 13, 1950 message from the U.S. High Commission in Germany (HICOG), signed by General Frank McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the "Baltic Legions": they were not to be seen as "movements", "volunteer", or "SS". In short, they were not given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members. Subsequently the US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that

The Baltic Waffen-SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.

The governments of the Baltic states consider these men as freedom fighters.[7]

"

This is only a Wiki-link but it has relevant quotes.

Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Summa summarum - I stick to my statement that freedom fighters do deserve their parades and respect, whatever the organization they served in was like.

P.S.

Although it is off-topic, I still cannot forget the fact, that at the same time the well-known soviet war criminals parade free with chests full of medals, which they "earned" by their "heroism" in attacking women and children. The official Russia - or any Russia for that matter - doesn't want to hear a word of their crimes.

Edited by Karjala, 13 August 2012 - 02:18 PM.
clarification

"We do not want a single foot of foreign territory..." -Stalin
"The idea of a concentration camp is excellent" -Stalin
"I repeat that is in the interest of the USSR that a war breaks out between the Reich and the capitalist Anglo-French Bloc" -Stalin 1939


#18 ptimms

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:07 PM

As I wrote before, I don't want to whitewash the Waffen-SS as an organization. One should still be aware, that many conscripts after 1943 did not have a choice. ALL they did was to fight the soviets - an extremely nobel cause if you ask me! And even before in 1941 the 1.200 Finnish volunteers did not join specifically the Waffen-SS - but the German army in general. It was against the will of the Finns that they were attached to the Waffen-SS. There they were excluded of the political training otherwise obligatory. Again all they did was to fight the soviets. None of them has ever been accused of any war crimes.

Here's some related quotes:

"After the war, in the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organisation owing to its essential connection to the Party and its involvement in war crimes and the Holocaust. The exception made was for Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted owing to their involuntary servitude."

"
Conscript divisions[/h] These soldiers from Estonia and Latvia were not volunteers[6] but conscripts which the German authorities had denied their wish to form national military units allied to Germany. Under such circumstances, these had either volunteered to the Wehrmacht and had later been forced into the Waffen-SS or were illegally conscripted by general mobilisations.[7] In an April 13, 1950 message from the U.S. High Commission in Germany (HICOG), signed by General Frank McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the "Baltic Legions": they were not to be seen as "movements", "volunteer", or "SS". In short, they were not given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members. Subsequently the US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that

The Baltic Waffen-SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.

The governments of the Baltic states consider these men as freedom fighters.[7]

"

This is only a Wiki-link but it has relevant quotes.

Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Summa summarum - I stick to my statement that freedom fighters do deserve their parades and respect, whatever the organization they served in was like.

P.S.

Although it is off-topic, I still cannot forget the fact, that at the same time the well-known soviet war criminals parade free with chests full of medals, which they "earned" by their "heroism" in attacking women and children. The official Russia - or any Russia for that matter - doesn't want to hear a word of their crimes.




That all sounds good until you look at the actual make up of the Baltic SS units, take 19th SS for instance, one of it's core units was the 2nd SS Motorised Brigade or the Waffen SS Lettische Brigade part of which was the 18th, 24th and 26th Schuma battalions.

15th grenadier division had as it's base 6 Schuma Latvian battalions



Info on Latvian Schuma battalions. 3 Latvian battalions (18, 26, 24) participated in Operation Sumpffieber (Swamp Fever) in Belarus in 1942. The operation lasted one month, as von dem Bach-Zelewski reported the results were 389 partisans killed, 1274 "suspects" and 8350 jews executed and 1217 people deported 158 settlements were looted or destroyed. During the operation Slonim ghetto was liquidated - Latvian battalions participated in it. Plus the 18th battalion participated in later liquidation of Borisov ghetto.

Schuma battalions were volunteers and served with some enthusiasm in the anti-partisan (read extermination) operations. They were then conscripted into the SS but just because they committed no crimes as Waffen SS troopers does not mean they were all saints.


People of every colour marching side by side
Marching cross these fields where a million fascists died
You're bound to lose, you fascists are bound to lose


#19 LRusso216

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:31 PM

Thanks for the backup. As far as I'm concerned, the Waffen-SS participated willingly and whole-heartedly in the hunting down and killing of Jews and otner "undesirables". I don't care if they were conscripted or not. My readng leads me to believe that they participated. They deserve no parades or other recognition.

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Lou


#20 Karjala

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:51 PM

That all sounds good until you look at the actual make up of the Baltic SS units, take 19th SS for instance, one of it's core units was the 2nd SS Motorised Brigade or the Waffen SS Lettische Brigade part of which was the 18th, 24th and 26th Schuma battalions.

15th grenadier division had as it's base 6 Schuma Latvian battalions



Info on Latvian Schuma battalions. 3 Latvian battalions (18, 26, 24) participated in Operation Sumpffieber (Swamp Fever) in Belarus in 1942. The operation lasted one month, as von dem Bach-Zelewski reported the results were 389 partisans killed, 1274 "suspects" and 8350 jews executed and 1217 people deported 158 settlements were looted or destroyed. During the operation Slonim ghetto was liquidated - Latvian battalions participated in it. Plus the 18th battalion participated in later liquidation of Borisov ghetto.

Schuma battalions were volunteers and served with some enthusiasm in the anti-partisan (read extermination) operations. They were then conscripted into the SS but just because they committed no crimes as Waffen SS troopers does not mean they were all saints.


I'm well aware of those facts. Although the core units really were those earlier (prior 1943) voluntary Schuma (Schutzmannschaft) battalions they only made a small minority out of the total number of the Latvian Waffen-SS men. Some of those Schuma-men did commit some war crimes in the early stages of the war while fighting the partisans, out of whom many were war criminals themselves.

However in early 1943 it became practically compulsory for e.g. Latvians to join the German army - meaning the Waffen-SS. This great majority of the men I'm talking about and who you try to mix with the earlier, much smaller and different group of men. All these 1943 onwards guys did was to figth the brutal invader.

"The Latvian Legion was created in January 1943 on the orders of Adolf Hitler following a request by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. The initial core of the force was provided by Latvian Schutzmannschaft battalions, which were formed several years earlier and had been previously engaged in anti-partisan duties. Thus, technically, it was a volunteer unit, but one month after the unit was founded, German occupation authorities in Latvia started conscripting military age men, as close to none had volunteered. They were given a choice between "volunteering" for SS Waffen legions, serving in the German army (Heer) as "auxiliaries" (labourers behind the front lines), commanded by German officers and often treated as subhumans, or being sent to a slave labour camp in Germany. Those who tried to avoid one of those options were arrested and sent to concentration camps.[8] As a result, only 15-20% of the soldiers serving in the legion were actual volunteers.[6

"

Latvian Legion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited by Karjala, 14 August 2012 - 01:54 PM.
addtition

"We do not want a single foot of foreign territory..." -Stalin
"The idea of a concentration camp is excellent" -Stalin
"I repeat that is in the interest of the USSR that a war breaks out between the Reich and the capitalist Anglo-French Bloc" -Stalin 1939


#21 Karjala

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

Thanks for the backup. As far as I'm concerned, the Waffen-SS participated willingly and whole-heartedly in the hunting down and killing of Jews and otner "undesirables". I don't care if they were conscripted or not. My readng leads me to believe that they participated. They deserve no parades or other recognition.


The Waffen-SS as an organization did, not the conscripts 1943 onwards. If you cannot see the difference you haven't obviously read enough...

For comparison: The Red Army was technically the army of the Russian communist party, not of the country. Since communism was the greatest evil the humankind has so far experienced every Red Army soldier must have been a war criminal as well, right...?

"We do not want a single foot of foreign territory..." -Stalin
"The idea of a concentration camp is excellent" -Stalin
"I repeat that is in the interest of the USSR that a war breaks out between the Reich and the capitalist Anglo-French Bloc" -Stalin 1939


#22 ptimms

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:08 PM

Of the 8350 Jews killed in the anti-partisan operation I quoted how many were war criminals ?


People of every colour marching side by side
Marching cross these fields where a million fascists died
You're bound to lose, you fascists are bound to lose


#23 LRusso216

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:31 PM

I'm betting none were. Read Burlegh's Moral Combat for a more thorough consideration of the various squads. His information comes from the records kept by each unit.

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#24 ptimms

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:59 PM

To be fair it was a rhetorical question, the Germans used "anti-partisan" sweeps as a tool to slaughter civilians, Jew or otherwise.

I've posted it before so apologies if you've seen this but it cannot be put in the public domain often enough as far as I'm concerned.

"Total I:
139,884 partisans/civilians killed

Total II:
100,070 partisans/civilians killed, 9,360 firearms captured

Total III:
112,603 partisans/civilians killed, 1,533 dead in German and auxiliaryformations

In the above listed major anti-partisan actions in Belorussia between 1942 and1944, at least 139,884 partisans and civilians were killed. The list is atranscription / translation of the one in Gerlach’s a.m. book, which is basedon the contemporary German records that the author could get hold of. Thenumber of dead was probably even higher, given that Gerlach’s list alsoincludes the “prisoners” who, according to Gerlach, were mostly executed. Thesefigures I have left out for simplification reasons.

The “Total II” of the above list gives the number of partisan / civilian deadin such operations for which the total of apprehended firearms of all types(rifles, pistols, machine guns, occasionally also heavy weapons) could beestablished. It shows that the number of dead was more than ten times higherthan the number of apprehended firearms, which suggests that 90 % of thosekilled were not partisans but unarmed civilians.

The “Total II” of the above list gives the number of partisan / civilian deadin such operations for which the number of dead in the German and auxiliaryformations could be established. It shows that in these operations 112,603“partisans” but only 1,533 members of anti-partisan formations were killed – aratio of 73 to 1 - , which is another indication of how few of those killed bythe German formations were actually partisans. "


People of every colour marching side by side
Marching cross these fields where a million fascists died
You're bound to lose, you fascists are bound to lose


#25 LRusso216

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 12:28 AM

I realize that your statement was rhetorical, and I only mentioned Burleigh in hopes that it would be read by others. I appreciate your posting of those numbers. It doesn't matter to me what year is being discussed, the Waffen-SS were guilty of many crimes against civilians, Jews, and others who displeased them in different theaters. There should be no parades to recognize them.

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Lou





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