Jump to content


We Need Your Help - Become a Site Supporter

For 16 years we've been delivering WWII discussion and research, help support our efforts for the next 16 years. Become a WW2 Forums Patron!


Photo
- - - - -

Finally: Justice for Assange ...


  • Please log in to reply
230 replies to this topic

#26 von_noobie

von_noobie

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,079 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:59 AM

Agreed we shouldn't have the right to know all, But much of what was given out was already well known or simply so despicable it had to be brought to light.

There are law's, Which wiki-leaks have shown the US of A to have broken on thousands of occasions.

As for the laugh about Sweden extraditing Assange to the US, While some Wiki-leaks supporters seem to take it to far Sweden them selves have refused to state on the record that they will not extradite him to the US.

#27 TiredOldSoldier

TiredOldSoldier

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,163 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:05 PM

The biggest problem with a case like this it that it basically boils down to a foreign journalist publishing stuff embarassing to the US on a non US site. Very hard to justify US jurisdition in a case like this without creating a ridiculous precedent.
I don't think there are any international laws that cover this, except possibly the declaration of the rights of man on free speech.

Assange could possibly be tried for espionage but I think espionage is explicitly excluded from extradition treaties for obvious reasons, one country's "intelligence asset" is another's "traitor". And to call it espionnage the autenticity of the documents must be officially accepted, something the US has avoided doing up to now.

IMO the whole thing was set up to discourage journalists from exposing "US dirty linen" and cover up one security foul up and tonns of embarassing "low level incidents". Unfortunately it still looks likely to succeed.
Personally I think that the exposure, or the risk of exposure, is a critical to avoid governments, or government agencies from going too far "beyond the line", oversight is nowhere near enough. The "freedom of the press", like most freedoms, can be abused but, possibly because I live in a contry where independent journalism has gradually disappeared, I really don't like attempts to prosecute any journalist for publishing accurate data, all too often I've seen "official secret" claims being used to cover up mistakes, stupidity, and sometimes even crimes.

The "operatives" exposed by insufficienttly vetted data published accusation is serious, lives can be put at risk but what data was in possession of Assange was know long before he published it, so it's unlikely there was anything more serious than a loss of "assets", IMO if the "controllers" failed to pull them out they are a lot more responsible than Assange. To put that accusation in perspective the US "accidentaly leaked out" the identities of a number of Italian agents in Afghanistan after they negotiated the release of an Italian hostage against US wishes, the head of the team was "accidentally" killed at a US roadblock, That is one story I would have loved an Assange to dig out some info through all the "official secrets".
When I was a kid one of my neighbours was "revealed" by a newspaper as the head of the CIA in Rome, nobody raised a fuss on that though we had a police protection detachment downstairs for a few months.

IMO the rape charges are impossible to prove or disprove, that sort of trial, especially in a case that hinges on "consent", and where there was no apparent violence, boils down to conflicting testimonies, and in this specific case no witness is reliable, there is just too much chance of "outside pressures" (money or threats).

BTW: this does belong in the stump, it can hardly be more political.
  • von_noobie, 36thID and Tamino like this
Truth is the first victim of conflict

#28 The_Historian

The_Historian

    Pillboxologist

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,468 posts
  • LocationStirling, Scotland

Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:06 PM

If that was the case then there would be no need for Embassies and Consulates, The Australian government routinely as do most every government get involved with the citizines when they are facing crimes in another country, How is it the Government will get involved for a person that tried to smuggle drugs through Bali but a person wanted by the US and Sweden gets pushed to one side?


They make representation on behalf of those citizens. They don't actually represent them in court. They couldn't stop two Australian drug couriers being hung in Malaysia in 1986, since they had no legal powers to do so.
Regards,

Gordon

#29 Tamino

Tamino

    Doc - The Deplorable

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,462 posts
  • LocationUntersteiermark

Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:37 PM

Dear friends,

In this thread I was expressing myself very frankly and I am sorry if I have insulted anyone. I just wanted to present my view. Real friends must be honest.

However, people should understand that there is a huge difference among:

(i) the personal right for privacy and
(ii) the right of the state institutions for secrecy.

The state is a stronger party in this relationship and must act transparently; else ordinary people are in great danger.

flag_eu.png


#30 George Patton

George Patton

    Canadian Refugee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts
  • LocationOntario, Canada

Posted 18 August 2012 - 05:41 PM

I've always thought that if you really wanted to know all of the US's secrets, you should join the CIA or DIA. If you're serious about this, do it right! -- don't spend all day looking at "AboveTopSecret.com" or the equivilant ;)

Best Regards,
Alan


#31 The_Historian

The_Historian

    Pillboxologist

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,468 posts
  • LocationStirling, Scotland

Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:59 PM

Well, I'm certainly not insulted.:)
Regards,

Gordon

#32 Poppy

Poppy

    grasshopper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,252 posts
  • LocationShambhala http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv9DwzU3KP0

Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:57 PM

Julian is one of the worlds largest nerds. And my first impulse would be to pull his pants down in public, followed by snake burn or a snow bath.. While in Sweden, Assange Stole Reporter's Girlfriend, Too - Days after odd encounter he's with women who accuse him of assault But, he was able to expose a lot of interesting stuff. If he was able to uncover sensitive info, then imagine what China, Russia etc were/are able to gather. The hypocrisy and double speak of governments should be exposed...Assange is an easy, soft target... Why don't they go after the governments and actual spies who do the real crime?..Oh yeah, much more difficult.

#33 von_noobie

von_noobie

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,079 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:58 AM

They may not represent them in court, But they sure well go and use there political connections when they feel like it or when it suits them.

Assange has gone and upset our biggest defence Ally, Of course the Australian government will leave him out to dry.. Recording have even come out that The current Australian government wont contest any extradition of Assange to the US, But would like a little warning before anything is made public..

#34 Slipdigit

Slipdigit

    Good Ol' Boy

  • Administrators
  • 16,573 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:13 AM

Thread moved to The Stump.

And to clairify, the United States of America is not a democracy. It never has been one.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

SlidigitAxe.png


#35 Poppy

Poppy

    grasshopper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,252 posts
  • LocationShambhala http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv9DwzU3KP0

Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:17 AM

Not a democracy? Please explain.

#36 George Patton

George Patton

    Canadian Refugee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts
  • LocationOntario, Canada

Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:33 AM

Assange has gone and upset our biggest defence Ally


Although the aircraft carrier proposal wasn't made through official channels, the AUS government shot it down pretty fast (within hours of it being released, if I recall correctly) -- I wouldn't call that "being nice" to their "biggest defense ally". There were some grumblings about the USMC brigade as well.

The AUS government can't represent him because it has no jurisdiction, as Gordon pointed out. And even if they could, I doubt they would -- he's caused Australia a lot of headaches, and he has a criminal record there. Its hardly an incentive to go out on a limb for him. Of course, this is a moot point since they can't do anything regardless.

Best Regards,
Alan


#37 von_noobie

von_noobie

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,079 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:08 AM

Although the aircraft carrier proposal wasn't made through official channels, the AUS government shot it down pretty fast (within hours of it being released, if I recall correctly) -- I wouldn't call that "being nice" to their "biggest defense ally". There were some grumblings about the USMC brigade as well.


And as I have stated previously, Anything to involve both the US of A and China is a very sensitive area, The ranting coming from China for just 2,500 Marines to be based in Darwin, Do you think they would not complain about a full Carrier battle Group in Perth? As incompetent as the current AUS government is (my personal opinion) even they would have realised the problems that would have arisen from basing a USN CBG in Australia permanently.

I had already pointed this out previously, It would be appreciated and respected if you would read the entire post and not use lil tid bit's to try and change what I was saying.

The AUS government can't represent him because it has no jurisdiction, as Gordon pointed out. And even if they could, I doubt they would -- he's caused Australia a lot of headaches, and he has a criminal record there. Its hardly an incentive to go out on a limb for him. Of course, this is a moot point since they can't do anything regardless.


They can't do anything in the Court room, But they sure as hell can use the Political connections to do stuff, But I agree, They wont go out on a limb for him because that would be putting the AUS government at odd's with the US and quite frankly our government just doesn't have the gut's to tell another country what's what.. Even if some of what he released showed US government official's criticizing Australia or complaining about what we are trying to do.. One actually was angry that Australia wanted to built military equipment in Australia and said that they should Just buy it all from America.....

#38 TiredOldSoldier

TiredOldSoldier

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,163 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:15 AM

Julian is one of the worlds largest nerds. And my first impulse would be to pull his pants down in public, followed by snake burn or a snow bath.. While in Sweden, Assange Stole Reporter's Girlfriend, Too - Days after odd encounter he's with women who accuse him of assault But, he was able to expose a lot of interesting stuff. If he was able to uncover sensitive info, then imagine what China, Russia etc were/are able to gather. The hypocrisy and double speak of governments should be exposed...Assange is an easy, soft target... Why don't they go after the governments and actual spies who do the real crime?..Oh yeah, much more difficult.

He's not exactly what I would call a role model but he serves a useful role, IMO we would be poorer and less secure without people like him, leaving a lot of rather diststateful personality traits aside, he doesn't come out as stupid, so he must have realized he was making very powerful enemies for himself, and it takes guts to do what he did (can't believe he was so full of himself to think he was above retaliation).

IMO the world has come to a sad state when we must rely on Iceland and Equador to stand firmly behind basic principles of freedom.
Truth is the first victim of conflict

#39 Tamino

Tamino

    Doc - The Deplorable

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,462 posts
  • LocationUntersteiermark

Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:29 PM

Not a democracy? Please explain.

USA is a plutocracy like many other western "democracies".

flag_eu.png


#40 Slipdigit

Slipdigit

    Good Ol' Boy

  • Administrators
  • 16,573 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

Not a democracy? Please explain.


The US is a republic.

There are no pure democracies in the world. That would be mob rule.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

SlidigitAxe.png


#41 George Patton

George Patton

    Canadian Refugee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts
  • LocationOntario, Canada

Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:39 PM

And as I have stated previously, Anything to involve both the US of A and China is a very sensitive area, The ranting coming from China for just 2,500 Marines to be based in Darwin, Do you think they would not complain about a full Carrier battle Group in Perth? As incompetent as the current AUS government is (my personal opinion) even they would have realised the problems that would have arisen from basing a USN CBG in Australia permanently.

I had already pointed this out previously, It would be appreciated and respected if you would read the entire post and not use lil tid bit's to try and change what I was saying.


I hardly think that I'm picking out small points from your messages. What I responded to was a key point in your argument; namely, your reason for Australia not assisting him. You could not have "pointed this out previously" as I haven't replied to any of your other messages. I agree with what you said in this message, but you implied that the AUS government sucks up to the US and hence would co-operate fully with the US if they wanted Assange extradited. This is hardly the case, as the aircraft carrier event demonstrates. Indeed, the very fact that the AUS government listens to China shoots this argument down. Australia is a sovereign country, and it hardly is the puppet state of another country.

Moving onto other topics: even if Assange was helped by Australia and (for example) allowed to return home, he would still eventually be extradited to Sweden. From the first article of the Australia-Sweden Extradition treaty: "Each Contracting Party undertakes to extradite to the other Contracting Party, subject to the provisions of this Treaty, any person found in its territory who is charged by a competent authority with, or has been convicted of, an offence against the law of the other Contracting Party, whether committed within or outside the territory of that Party."

In other words, if Australia assisted him somehow (for example, bringing him to the Australian Embassy for protective custody), they would be breaking the law by not extraditing him. There is nothing they can do, "strings" or no "strings". They are legally required to extradite him, as are most of the other countries in the world that have valid extradition treaties with Sweden. Ecuador does not, which is likely why he picked to go to them.

Australia can't intervene, Assange has shown them no respect, he is wanted by a (friendly) foreign government and is political dynamite. Why would they help?

Edited by George Patton, 19 August 2012 - 02:44 PM.

Best Regards,
Alan


#42 George Patton

George Patton

    Canadian Refugee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts
  • LocationOntario, Canada

Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

Another interesting tidbit to throw out there:

Ecuador | Freedom House
The World Today - 'Climate of fear' for local journalists in Ecuador 17/08/2012

-"President Rafael Correa [of Ecuador] attacking private media are an alarming illustration of Correa’s growing attempts to silence critical media."
-'One member of the local press says he and his colleagues face a weekly torrent of accusations and abuse from the president himself during his addresses to the nation."
-"the government of Rafael Correa has become notorious for its mistreatment of local journalists."
-"President Correa every Saturday in his weekly addresses maintains an anti-journalist stance which has made many city dwellers think they have the right to attack journalists when this shouldn't be the case."

Its going to be interesting to see how Assange fits in over there, considering he is about as independent that a "journalist" (yes, that is in quotes on purpose) can get. He's hardly making a stand for free speech and internet freedom -- he is saving his own hide.

Best Regards,
Alan


#43 Tamino

Tamino

    Doc - The Deplorable

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,462 posts
  • LocationUntersteiermark

Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:20 PM

Julian Assange statement at Ecuadorean embassy - live

Posted Image

flag_eu.png


#44 Slipdigit

Slipdigit

    Good Ol' Boy

  • Administrators
  • 16,573 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:30 PM

... and shame for western "democracies"!

On December 11th, 2010, one of my the most favorite members of this community, Volga Boatman from Australia, wrote:



Amen to that!

The thread was closed.

16 AUGUST 2012: Ecuador has granted Political Asylum to Assange!



WHY Western Democracies Prosecute Assange! Why was he expulsed?

On my knees I beg American patriots and other "Democrat" zealots to refrain from heated debate, to avoid closure of this thread.


I would like to go back and address your opening comment.

What is the origin of this supposed "shame" you say that "western 'democracies'" should have? When you have answered that, I'll have another question for you.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

SlidigitAxe.png


#45 Tamino

Tamino

    Doc - The Deplorable

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,462 posts
  • LocationUntersteiermark

Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:42 PM

I would like to go back and address your opening comment.

Please, do so.

...What is the origin of this supposed "shame" you say that "western 'democracies'" should have? When you have answered that, I'll have another question for you.

I know we would disagree on this subject, so why bother. By the way, strangely, but it seems to me that you intend to start a cross-examination with me. ;)

flag_eu.png


#46 The_Historian

The_Historian

    Pillboxologist

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,468 posts
  • LocationStirling, Scotland

Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:45 PM

Having seen his "address" earlier, the guy really does have a Messiah complex.:rolleyes:
Regards,

Gordon

#47 Slipdigit

Slipdigit

    Good Ol' Boy

  • Administrators
  • 16,573 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:12 PM

Please, do so.

I know we would disagree on this subject, so why bother. By the way, strangely, but it seems to me that you intend to start a cross-examination with me. ;)


Oh, for sure we would. I just want to know what I am going to disagree about.

You are the OP, I figured I should start at the beginning and establish specificially what it is we disagree about.

Why should "western democracies" be ashamed?

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

SlidigitAxe.png


#48 von_noobie

von_noobie

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,079 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:52 PM

I hardly think that I'm picking out small points from your messages. What I responded to was a key point in your argument; namely, your reason for Australia not assisting him. You could not have "pointed this out previously" as I haven't replied to any of your other messages. I agree with what you said in this message, but you implied that the AUS government sucks up to the US and hence would co-operate fully with the US if they wanted Assange extradited. This is hardly the case, as the aircraft carrier event demonstrates. Indeed, the very fact that the AUS government listens to China shoots this argument down. Australia is a sovereign country, and it hardly is the puppet state of another country.

Posted Image Originally Posted by von_noobie Posted Image

Because as far as I can tell anything to do with China and the US as long as it doesn't involve both if one says jump then the Australian government asks "How high?"


I have clearly stated that if it involved 'both' the US and China they do not go and do as asked (or told). Now if you havn't read this before might I suggest reading the whole thread from the start? It's a problem I have had in the past and can very easily cause confusion and arguments and my personal opinion, If the thread doesn't even have 50 posts yet then reading them all is no big time waster or challenge.

Cheers.

#49 George Patton

George Patton

    Canadian Refugee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts
  • LocationOntario, Canada

Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:32 PM

I have clearly stated that if it involved 'both' the US and China they do not go and do as asked (or told).


I think I understand what you're trying to say. No offense intended, but this disproves your comment that the AUS government is 'cozy' and/or 'sucking up' to the US. If that were the case, they wouldn't care what China does. My original message still stands. I'm assuming that you're implying China has no objection to Assange being tried in the US, hence they wouldn't be annoying them in any way. What makes you think that China wants Assange punished? His organization has been a consistent thorn in the side of China's largest geopolitical enemy, and has made a mockery of it on the world stage (leaked embassy cables insulting foreign leaders, 'kill footage' of civillians, etc). If I were in China's position, I'd be egging him on, not hoping that he ends up in a prison cell (and yes, this would involve pressuring foreign powers to let him go free). Assange has not shown China much 'aggression' asides from 1 interview with TIME magazine -- they have no reason to dislike him (putting aside the fear that he would do something similar with Chinese government cables, which given the security in that country, is highly unlikely).

Now, as for your comment that "if you would read the entire post and not use lil tid bit's to try and change what I was saying."..... ;) (hint hint: that message had more than 1 paragraph)

Edited by George Patton, 19 August 2012 - 11:08 PM.
more thoughts

Best Regards,
Alan


#50 George Patton

George Patton

    Canadian Refugee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts
  • LocationOntario, Canada

Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:37 PM

Having seen his "address" earlier, the guy really does have a Messiah complex.:rolleyes:


That's something I've agreed with for a long time. All I have to add to this:

"Assange has fallen out with his lawyers, collaborators, staff and some former supporters, who complain of his monstrous ego, chauvinism towards women and meagre gratitude to those who worked hard for WikiLeaks' success. Perhaps most damaging of all, Assange now looks like a hypocrite."

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
  • Slipdigit likes this

Best Regards,
Alan





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users