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Finally: Justice for Assange ...


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#51 von_noobie

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:21 AM

I was using the AUS government cozying up to China and the US as an example, If it has come across that way I have not intended to give any view of China's view of Assange and the US.

If it helps I'll try and lay out a little time line that lead to that remark of mine =).

Tamino said

The official position of Australian government proves nothing. Their point of view just reveals that they would hand over Assange to America.


then The Historian replied with

No, that's just paranoid BS.


So I came out with..

Very nice use of BS there, But if it is so please do inform me of what there official position is? Because as far as I can tell anything to do with China and the US as long as it doesn't involve both if one says jump then the Australian government asks "How high?"


So The Historian replied with

Posted Image Originally Posted by von_noobie Posted Image
Because as far as I can tell anything to do with China and the US as long as it doesn't involve both if one says jump then the Australian government asks "How high?"

Clearly not, since the Australian government just told the Pentagon to get stuffed where a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier group was concerned.



and to end it I came back with

You forget the part where I pointed out that they don't jump when it involves both the US and China. With the saber rattling China made over a marine base in Darwin even considering basing a Nuclear carrier battle group in Australia is simply insane. But to put it correctly, It was a proposal by a think tank, It was not an actual request by the US Government or USN.


Hopefully this clear's up the confusion mate.

Cheers, Matthew.

#52 lwd

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:47 PM

... 16 AUGUST 2012: Ecuador has granted Political Asylum to Assange!

That doesn't sound like it's going to lead to justice to me.

WHY Western Democracies Prosecute Assange!

Because there is significant evidence that he commited criminal acts.

On my knees I beg American patriots and other "Democrat" zealots to refrain from heated debate, to avoid closure of this thread.

Why? So you can use it to spew your personal opinion unopposed?

Agreed we shouldn't have the right to know all, But much of what was given out was already well known or simply so despicable it had to be brought to light.

??? Actually much the opposite. For the most part the "Wiki Leaks" articles showed the US to be operating within the laws and operating on a relativly elevated moral plane. Indeed if there is any justice related to this event to date it is that Assange's attempt to damage the US has had the opposite effect.

There are law's, Which wiki-leaks have shown the US of A to have broken on thousands of occasions.

Not from what I've seen. Care to list a just a few of them?

...
However, people should understand that there is a huge difference among:

(i) the personal right for privacy and
(ii) the right of the state institutions for secrecy.

The state is a stronger party in this relationship and must act transparently; else ordinary people are in great danger.

Which is a relativly minor part of the difference. Governement secrets may in some cases be things that should be revealed. On the otherhand some of them are things that could result in the deaths of thousands. Most fall somewhere in between.

Assange is anything but innocent. He got off easy on some of his previous criminal acts. Whether or not he is legally guilty of criminal acts in regards to "Wiki leaks" is an open question. Certainly he's guilty of recklass endangerment. Indeed he's justified it in rather cavalier statements about "colateral damage".

When I first saw the title of this thread I was thought it really did indicate a movement toward justice in this case. Instead it should more properly be Justice delayed for Assange.

#53 Poppy

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:50 PM

Plutocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tres interesting...Voted.

#54 texson66

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:50 AM

After seeing this self-important twit on TV deliver his statement from the safety of the Ecuadoran embassy (FYI Assange, Ecuador is NOT a real bastion of freedom of the press btw) , it seems it would serve justice a lot better for the UK to seize the twit and send him to Sweden and then the US. The Assange can have a shot for real justice.
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#55 Slipdigit

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:02 PM

Best I can figure, his surname is 4 letters too long.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#56 George Patton

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:13 PM

Hopefully this clear's up the confusion mate.


Fair enough. I still disagree, but there's no point to keep dragging this out.
Best Regards,
Alan

#57 von_noobie

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:17 PM

Fair enough. I still disagree, but there's no point to keep dragging this out.


Well at least we can be mature about this and agree to disagree =) So much more relaxing to not have to come back to drama after night out .. (went and seen Jeff Dunham in Melbourne.. HILARIOUS but not politically correct :P)

#58 George Patton

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:17 PM

Best I can figure, his surname is 4 letters too long.


Just about every account I've read about him from his former co-workers calls him pompus and egotistical. That speaks volumes -- so you just might have a point there.
Best Regards,
Alan

#59 A-58

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:44 PM

Just about every account I've read about him from his former co-workers calls him pompus and egotistical. That speaks volumes -- so you just might have a point there.


That and the fact that he committed sexual crimes then ran off to 'seek political asylum speaks" well of his character too. From some of the posts here you'd think he was just a fine fellow.

"On the Plains of Hesitation, lies the blackened bones of countless millions who,
at the dawn of victory sat down to rest, and resting died"....

(Adlai Stevenson to Harry Truman on discussing the pros and cons of dropping the big one, or so I'm told)


#60 phylo_roadking

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:20 PM

A few aspects of this case seem to have been lost in the rhetoric from all sides....

Assange is NOT wanted on a charge of rape; no charge has been made against him yet. In Swedish law it's customary to only charge a person with a crime a quite short time before any court case....

Nor is he actually wanted for questioning with regards to a case of "rape"; it's a specifically Swedish law regarding consent to practice "safe sex" I.E. having slept with him apparently consentually, two women complained that he hadn't worn a condom! It's an allegation equivalent to rape in the UK...Important wording that - see my next comment regarding the penalty for this crime...

Also - in Sweden, if found guilty of this crime....he would ONLY be liable to a financial penalty, not imprisonment!!! How on earth did they get a European Arrest Warrant approved for this???

In penalty terms - it's not dissimilar to a European Arrest Warrant being issued for the arrest and extradition of a serial parking ticket avoider! :eek:

All of which has helped raise eyebrows over what the hell ARE the Swedes doing demanding the extradition of this guy???

...........................................................................................................................................................................................

The OTHER aspect is the foaming-at-the-mouth rhetoric that emerged from the great and the good across the Pond; things are a bit odd in the U.S. if elected representatives can call in public for Assange to be "assasinated" I.E. murdered! It doesn't really matter that some of them are generally regarded as feckwits - you just can't go around SAYING that sort of thing in public!

As for the calls for him to be tried for Treason - he's not an American citizen, for god's sake - HOW can he be a traitor, by definition???

...........................................................................................................................................................................................

Back at the Swedish end of things - there are OTHER funnies that need some light thrown upon them....

Assange WAS arrested and questioned on these charges already in Sweden - and no further action taken....

THEN the Wikileaks fiasco exploded....and NOW suddenly the Swedes are desperate to get their hands on him again???? :confused:

Something is rotten in the state of not-too-far-away-from-Denmark!

..........................................................................................................................................................................................

Personally, I think he's an obnoxious tit; but the British government have made a major political mistake over the last week with their thinly-veiled threat to enter the Ecuadorian embassy and seize him....and subsequent backpedalling faster than a parish priest cycling down a one-in-three hill!

"Et Dick tracy, il est mort? Et Guy LeClair?"


#61 George Patton

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

How on earth did they get a European Arrest Warrant approved for this??? In penalty terms - it's not dissimilar to a European Arrest Warrant being issued for the arrest and extradition of a serial parking ticket avoider! :eek:


Apparently European arrest warrants are given out for 'petty crimes':

-"People have reportedly been extradited for offences which would be considered trivial in the UK, such as bicycle theft and piglet rustling." (Source: European Arrest Warrants: unjust and ripe for reform? | Assange extradition News | The Week UK)

-"Hundreds of Britons will be extradited for minor misdemeanours ranging from driving offences and drunkenness to more bizarre crimes such as stealing chickens, under new rules which come into force next year. " (Source: Hundreds of Britons will be extradited for minor crimes under new rules - Telegraph)


The OTHER aspect is the foaming-at-the-mouth rhetoric that emerged from the great and the good across the Pond; things are a bit odd in the U.S. if elected representatives can call in public for Assange to be "assasinated" I.E. murdered! It doesn't really matter that some of them are generally regarded as feckwits - you just can't go around SAYING that sort of thing in public! As for the calls for him to be tried for Treason - he's not an American citizen, for god's sake - HOW can he be a traitor, by definition???


US politicians are famous for saying dumb things. Recently, look at Joe Biden (saying a racially insesitive thing to a group of African Americans), Todd Akin (his comments on rape), Dick Cheney. Also refer to the some of the dumbest acts from US politicians: Senator Larry Craig arrested in a men's room, Dick Cheney shoots a lawyer in the face, NY Gov Elliot Spitzer's extra-maritial affair, IL Gov Rod Blagojevich trying to sell a senate seat. The lesson here: most of these people aren't that intelligent (or moral). Congressmen do not speak for the US government. A lot of these 'vocal' congressmen are an embaressment -- calling Assange a 'traitor' is a perfect example of this.

Assange WAS arrested and questioned on these charges already in Sweden - and no further action taken....THEN the Wikileaks fiasco exploded....and NOW suddenly the Swedes are desperate to get their hands on him again???? :confused:Something is rotten in the state of not-too-far-away-from-Denmark!


Assange was questioned on August 30th while the investigation was ongoing. At some point (either before or immediately after he was questioned -- I don't know), the case was dropped. On September 1st the case was reopened. He left Sweden on September 27th, which Sweden says was when they informed Assange's lawyer of his imenent arrest ("Swedish prosecutors asserting that Mr. Assange left their country the day his lawyers learned that an arrest warrant was going to be issued for him. " Source: Assange Fled Sweden After Arrest Threat - WSJ.com). Wikileaks did not release the diplomatic cables (which is what really angered the US -- there wasn't as much of an outcry about the Afgan/Iraq documents) until November 28th. The formal arrest warrant was issued on November 18th (in other words, ten days before he really pissed off the US). Whether this is 'something rotten' is up to you. To me, it seems like a typical judicial waiting delay. The trial was ongoing as he released the documents. Maybe they stepped up the charges after he angered most of the free world by leaking the cables, but these charges aren't 'fabricated' just as some convoluted way to bring him to the US.
Best Regards,
Alan

#62 phylo_roadking

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:43 PM

Wikileaks did not release the diplomatic cables (which is what really angered the US -- there wasn't as much of an outcry about the Afgan/Iraq documents) until November 28th. The formal arrest warrant was issued on November 18th (in other words, ten days before he really pissed off the US).


Maybe "corporately" pissed off the U.S. ...but there was certainly very major discussion and ongoing outcry in the UK before the 28th of November ;) Especially with the release of the Afghanistan/Iraq files regarding some of the more famous here "blue-on-blue" incidents where British servicemen caught a packet at the hands of U.S. servicemen. At that time there was spiralling outcry being heard in Britain from the American end.

EDIT: just checked - WIkileaks began publishing the Afghan war logs on July 25th! That's two months before the allegations were revived in September ;)

The trial was ongoing as he released the documents. Maybe they stepped up the charges after he angered most of the free world by leaking the cables, but these charges aren't 'fabricated' just as some convoluted way to bring him to the US.


Just two minor points - there hasn't been a trial yet...except by public opinion, perhaps; and nor has he been charged yet in Sweden, just investigated. IIRC this was one of the issues raised during his appeals against extradition here.

The thing is - this case needs to be handled squeaky-clean, with EVERYTHING done transparently and most importantly correctly. And there are interesting ommissions; several times now the Swedes have been asked to give a simple assurance that he wouldn't be onwardly extradited to the U.S. or rendered....and they haven't done this.

I'm not saying at all that the allegations have been fabricated for that purpose - but on the other hand, time and events will tell if they have indeed been "used" for that purpose ;) Capone's tax evasion case comes to mind as an example...

US politicians are famous for saying dumb things. Recently, look at Joe Biden (saying a racially insesitive thing to a group of African Americans), Todd Akin (his comments on rape), Dick Cheney. Also refer to the some of the dumbest acts from US politicians: Senator Larry Craig arrested in a men's room, Dick Cheney shoots a lawyer in the face, NY Gov Elliot Spitzer's extra-maritial affair, IL Gov Rod Blagojevich trying to sell a senate seat. The lesson here: most of these people aren't that intelligent (or moral). Congressmen do not speak for the US government. A lot of these 'vocal' congressmen are an embaressment -- calling Assange a 'traitor' is a perfect example of this.


But at least in the UK there are strict rules regarding "trial by media" - how do you find twelve uninfluenced "good men and true" to try the case whenever he's been hung drawn and quartered in every corner of the American press for months???

Edited by phylo_roadking, 22 August 2012 - 12:25 AM.

"Et Dick tracy, il est mort? Et Guy LeClair?"


#63 Belasar

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:55 PM

I revere Free Speech, but I wish in this case it had a better or more worthy candidate.. The gentleman holds governments to high standard's but does not seem to hold himself to the same standards. His argument that Sweden would extridite him to the US to tried and executed is bull, The serviceman who gave up the info is only liable to life with out parole at most.

Wars are rarely fought in black and white, but in infinite shades of grey

(Poppy is occasionaly correct, or so I hear)


#64 phylo_roadking

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:59 PM

His argument that Sweden would extridite him to the US to tried and executed is bull


Given the foaming at the mouth of the aforementioned Congressmen - he probably fears illegal execution was much as the legally-sanctioned type! The falling out of an aeroplane in flight, or slipping and breaking his neck in the prison shower while on remand, or falling down a flight of stairs a couple of dozen times type...

I know people will say that sort of things doesn't happen...except when it does :P How is he supposed to expect anything better given the ranting of America's lawmakers regarding illegal killing???

There are other questionable aspects - what on earth is the DoJ doing drawing up a case against him - when he's NOT an American citizen and the Wikileaks website was hosted in Sweden under Swedish law? If I libelled someone from the U.S. on a British-hosted website under British law, for example - I would expect a British law firm representing an American plaintiff to take the case forward in a British court if there's one to answer.

If Wikileaks has broken ANY crime...they have to be Swedish crimes, and brought to book in a Swedish court.

Edited by phylo_roadking, 21 August 2012 - 11:11 PM.

"Et Dick tracy, il est mort? Et Guy LeClair?"


#65 Slipdigit

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:43 PM

If Wikileaks has broken ANY crime...they have to be Swedish crimes, and brought to book in a Swedish court.


Sheer speculation on my part:
If he paid a bribe or other renumeration and those transactions occured on US soil, then I would think that a case could be brought by the US against him or his company.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

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#66 phylo_roadking

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:30 AM

There's no sign in any of the Bradley Manning material that he ever met Assange; all communication was by an encrypted Internet conferencing service. Army investigators told the court they only ever found 14–15 pages of chats between Manning and someone they believed to be Assange, but no decisive evidence was found in them of Assange offering Manning any direction. Be a bit hard then to even prove conspiracy...which is the only thing they could try and charge Assange with - IF he had been on American soil, which looks dubious.

"Et Dick tracy, il est mort? Et Guy LeClair?"


#67 George Patton

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:56 AM

I said that the Afgan/Iraq documents were released before, but there wasn't nearly as large of a outcry in the US as there were when the diplomatic documents were released. I believe the US Justice Department brought up the possibility of using the Espionage Act, but never moved forward with charges. In the case of the Afghan documents, the Afghan government even said there was not much "new" information there. Of course this is all subjective, but this is the feeling I got. I don't recall mass groups calling for criminal charges -- at least nothing compared with the diplomatic leaks.

I didn't mean to say trial (of course there hasn't been one -- he hasn't even been extradited yet!), I should have said 'the case'. Frankly the Swedes don't have to report to anyone. Again, they're a sovereign country and shouldn't have to report to anyone, let alone an activist group. Again, just my opinion. ;)
Best Regards,
Alan

#68 George Patton

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:14 AM

I think if the US wanted him killed illegally, it would have been done already. Doing it now would be a disaster given that all the media is focused on the case.

There are other questionable aspects - what on earth is the DoJ doing drawing up a case against him - when he's NOT an American citizen and the Wikileaks website was hosted in Sweden under Swedish law?


I don't think the DoJ can charge him under the espionage act (I couldn't find anything about charging a foreign national about it on any official website). However, I did go onto the FBI site and they said a foreign national can be charged for "economic espionage" as per the "Economic Espionage Act". Didn't Wikileaks publish some US corporate documents a while back -- they might draw him up on those charges?

If a foreign national can be charged with "economic espionage", I would assume there is some type of provision for this in the Espionage Act as well.
Best Regards,
Alan

#69 von_noobie

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:36 AM

Personally while I believe in what he is doing he should just go in to Sweden, At this time know the US couldn't risk trying to extradite him, If Sweden agreed to it would make them look bad and if the US did it then would make them look even worse for punishing a man trying to bring some facts to light.. I think the US is angry more so nt that the stuff was released but due to how bad it made them look with how there ambassadors talked about other countries and there leaders.. I think the US and Assange need to take a chill pill and both come back to reality =).

But hey if Assange want's another group to go after, Ford management in Australia please.. Seems they are trying to kill the Aussie falcon just to make Ford management in Detroit happy, All the workers in Australia be stuffed ... Can he please find out if there doing this on purpose or collaborating with Detroit? =)

#70 The_Historian

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:38 AM

Just found this-
"The Swedish government will not extradite Assange to the US should he face the death penalty there, as any possible extradition request from Washington is then subject to strict conditions, an official from the country’s Justice Ministry declared.­“We will never surrender a person to the death penalty,” the deputy director of the Service for Criminal Cases and International Cooperation of Sweden’s Justice Ministry said in an interview with the Frankfurter Rundschau newspaper on Tuesday.
This means there should be strict guarantees from the US government that “the prisoner will not be executed in any case,” added Cecilia Riddselius. But, she added, so far her country has not received any extradition request from Washington.
In June, Cecilia Riddselius admitted there were opportunities for countries to request different types of guarantees in relation to extradition. Sweden may request that an extradited person will not be sentenced to the death penalty, he or she will not be tortured, should not be prosecuted for offences other than those which he or she was delivered for and not to be charged before a special court.
However, Riddselius then stressed, Sweden cannot guarantee in advance that Assange will not be extradited."
Sweden: If Assange faces death row in US we won
I'm putting money on him still refusing to go. ;)

Regards,

Gordon


#71 lwd

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:07 PM

... But at least in the UK there are strict rules regarding "trial by media" - how do you find twelve uninfluenced "good men and true" to try the case whenever he's been hung drawn and quartered in every corner of the American press for months???

Are you kidding? If went out after work to say the local mall and asked 100 people what they thought of him I wouldn't be surprised if 90+% said "Assange? Who's that?" He's old news here. Haven't seen anything on him in months until this last flair up.

... - he probably fears illegal execution was much as the legally-sanctioned type!

Which would indicate he is both deluded and deluded as to just how important he really is. Of course that seems perfectly in character so perhaps you are correct.

I know people will say that sort of things doesn't happen...except when it does :P How is he supposed to expect anything better given the ranting of America's lawmakers regarding illegal killing???

In a case like this it would be unheard of. On the otherhand if he really believes in his "cause" then shouldn't he be willing to become a martyr?

There are other questionable aspects - what on earth is the DoJ doing drawing up a case against him - when he's NOT an American citizen and the Wikileaks website was hosted in Sweden under Swedish law? If I libelled someone from the U.S. on a British-hosted website under British law, for example - I would expect a British law firm representing an American plaintiff to take the case forward in a British court if there's one to answer.

If Wikileaks has broken ANY crime...they have to be Swedish crimes, and brought to book in a Swedish court.

US law does claim extraterritoriality in a number of cases. There are however some serioius questions as to whether or not they would apply to Assange. Serious enough that it would be almost guaranteed to go all the way to the Surpreme court if he was found guilty. Now if some of his previous crimes haven't haven't passed their statue of limitation dates that's another matter.

#72 Tamino

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 01:00 PM

It appears that there is justice for Assange: 

 

Julian Assange should be allowed to go free, UN panel finds

 

How can West claim to be free without the right to know the Truth? In fact West deliberately renounces the Truth in favor of illusion of safety.


flag_eu.png


#73 The_Historian

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:19 PM

He's not being "arbitrarily detained" by anyone. He chose to hole up in the Ecuadorian Embassy, unless you can prove the Ecuadorians have armed guards on his door. Since they granted him asylum and he remains on their "soil" voluntarily, he can hardly be "arbitrarily detained". 

Meanwhile, he's wanted for skipping bail...a criminal offence. That's why British Police are looking for him. 


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Regards,

Gordon


#74 Tamino

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:33 PM

It is now the task of the states of Sweden and the United Kingdom as a whole to implement the verdict.

Jullian Assange

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#75 The_Historian

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:41 PM

It isn't legally binding. It tells you that in your own link.

And he's still wanted for a criminal offence in the UK.


Edited by The_Historian, 05 February 2016 - 02:42 PM.

Regards,

Gordon





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