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Best and worst division...


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#1 Friedrich

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 02:20 AM

Hallo, gentlemen! I posted an earlier thread about the best ten German divisions according to you, my dear experts.

But I think we did not get a conclusion right there. So, let's talk about the best, simply the best division in all the German armed forces, by its conbat records, reputation, testimonies, etc.

Many of you put the LSSAH in the top of your list... Was it the best? Or should we take Eisenhower's words and say that "Hermann Göring" Panzerdivision was the best? I would like to hear your opinions here.

And which would you think was the worst (of the regular forces which were entire divisions, no Volkstrumm or incomplete SS divisions, OK?)

For its records I would have to say that was 22. Panzerdivision which performed very poorly in the Eastern front...

Any opinions?
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#2 C.Evans

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 02:52 AM

I would choose the HG div/PzKorps as the best--and they never got into anykind of troubes by committing anykind of war crimes.

The worst div was the Dirlwanger bde.
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
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#3 Panzerknacker

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 12:50 PM

I would have to agree with Carl (sorry Herr General) on that one-the Dirlewanger Brigade were a pathetic excuse for a military unit, and its leader was a pathetic excuse for a human being. He was a rapist, paedophile and wanton criminal-now fair enough-the Germans wanted a berserker unit-but these guys were just filth!!!

The best unit was probably the LSSAH for it's utter obedience and battle discipline, or teh Hitlerjugend, who by comparison were a fierce fighting unit-teenagers that gave the Brits goosebumps-and quoting from Das Boot-because it utterly epitomises the HJ-"It would shame the Brits to se mere boys giving them hell"....
"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

#4 PzJgr

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 03:23 PM

I would have to choose the LSSAH as the best unit. Looking at their long history, they committed no more crimes than any other unit in both camps. As for the worst division, that is a difficult one. The Dirlwinger Brigade was not a division so I don't think they count but I do agree with the discription. With the exception of the Hermann Goering division, I would say any of the Luftwaffe divisions because they were a waste of manpower and resources.
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#5 Friedrich

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 03:43 PM

Thanks, gentlemen.

I think also that the price for the best would be win for the LSSAH or HG.

But... would anybody mind in telling me more about this Dirlwanger Brigade? My mind is blank about this...
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#6 PzJgr

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 04:20 PM

The Dirlwinger brigade was the Waffen SS version of the penal unit. It was commanded by Oskar Dirlwinger who was a mercenary; joined French Foreign Legion & Condor Legion and in 1935 jailed for sex crimes. He suggested the creation of a special Sonderkommando to SS-Recruitment officer Gottlob Berger as a method of atonement for SS men convicted of crimes. He was and infamous sadist & degenerate, supposedly entertained his officers with the convusions of female Polish Jews injected with strychnine.
Beaten to death June 1945, by Polish soldiers of French occupation army. The Unit was ultimately disbanded.
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#7 Friedrich

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 04:57 PM

Thanks, Herr Pertz!!! I knew I could count on you.

But are we talking about a unit which was leaded and conformed by pigs and criminals and just because of it is the worst unit? Or we are talking about that it was the unit (by the way, I said entire division) that performed the worst during the war? That is my question. I was talking about a former, real division which performed awfully... Any thoughts?
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#8 PzJgr

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 05:42 PM

This unit never grew to a full division. It was used primarily as an antipartisan unit. The whole unit participated in rapes and pillaging to the extent that Himmler was embarrassed. The unit never did any fighting, at least against the partisans. They just went around village to village raping and pillaging.
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#9 Friedrich

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 06:21 PM

They make me sick, then! Thank God it did not get to be a division...

But I am still with 22. Panzerdivision.
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#10 C.Evans

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 08:41 PM

I have to agree with PzJgr on counting some of the Luftwaffe Felddivisions as some of the worst in the entire Wehrmacht. The main reason they did poorly is, they were NOT trained as combat Infantry--nor had any "real" experianced Officers and NCOs, and most of these mer being Luftwaffe ground personnel--were more os the specialist types i.e. mechanics--bomb loaders--to being ordinary warehouse guards. Alot of these men also didnt have the fierce fighting hearts--as their Heer counterparts. As for which of these were the worst--I cant remember but of 20 Luftwaffe Divisions fielded--most were very lacking in all departments.
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
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#11 TheRedBaron

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 08:43 PM

1st Fallschirmjager division. No question. Hitler himself stated that the paratroopers performed better than any other unit in the war. Other than that why are you all obsessed with waffen-ss units? rather worrying. How about Grossdeutchland or 352nd Infantry or 10th Panzer or Brandenburg? I dont deny LAH are near the top but lets not forget the small proportion of troops the SS actually made up.
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

#12 C.Evans

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 08:45 PM

a PS on the Dirlwanger Bde. Though it never reached divisional status in actual--but was considered a division--on paper. I mentioned them as they for the whole--were nothing but the scum of the earth. Ive seen several pictures of them in action--and you can clearly see they are the filth they have the reputation to be.

If you want a close second--as the worst unit in the entire Wehrmacht--add Kaminski to it--the Germans secretly executed him so as not to tick off his men--I think they blamed his death on Partisans.
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
:snoopy: :ww1ace:
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#13 Friedrich

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 08:56 PM

Well, I totally agree with you guys. Hallo, Red Baron! Welcome on board! You hope to see you around oftenly!

About the Luftwaffe field-divisions. Of course they were not trained for that. They were made of ground-personnel who knew nothing about ground-warfare. HG division was an army's division on dark-blue uniforms only which was ofitially of OKL, but was actually 90% OKH's...

The paratroopers were obviously the best infantry forces in the Wehrmacht, no doubt.

Red Baron, which 10th Panzer division are we talking about? The mediocre 10th of Von Wietersheim's Corps in 1940? The 10th Panzer anhilated in Tunissia? Or the 10th later formed in the Eastern front?
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#14 Erich

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 10:39 PM

You've seen the two Kommanduers of those idiot peanut units correct ? Just as ugly as the men that made up those wuss so-called divisions.
Most probably the higher ratings for the Wafeen SS due to the achievements by the Panzer sections in each one of the divisions, especially 1-5.
Aas you mentioned the 1st Fallschirm Korps would be on my high listing,even with the brutal slaughter at Crete but then the turn around in Sicily which still has not been covered well enough and into the boot and up the gut via Cassino and northward of Italy. What a show/fight these soldiers did. Also the Fallshirm units in 1945 in Holland, with what little armored reserves did put up a stout resistance. The Luftwaffe fled divisions although set aside as seperate units were filled with ex-fighter ground crewmen on occassion. Were there not a coupld of RK's presented to these men with the dark green collar patches ?

E
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#15 C.Evans

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 10:50 PM

More than a few, but I dont know how many--it would be interesting to know. Maybe IF I can ever finish my RKT project--we will know.......
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
:snoopy: :ww1ace:
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#16 Erich

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 11:38 PM

Carl ;

Are you thinking of picking up that new volume on the Luftwaffe Feld-Div's soon ? That would cover the chaps in brief form I would hope !!

E
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#17 C.Evans

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 11:43 PM

I havent heard of anything coming out about the Luft Feld Divs--please tell me more :D
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
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#18 Friedrich

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 11:55 PM

Yes, tell us more!!! I would love to learn more about those "flyers" divisions. I only know the 9.Flakdivision at Stalingrad. And that doesn't tell me much about them... :(
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#19 Erich

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Posted 18 July 2002 - 12:29 AM

Ok guys ! I hope I am correct and someone can give the right url if applicable.

Anthony Munoz will have a book on the Luftwaffe Feld divisions I think coming at the time of autumn through.....and this maybe wrong.....RZM
www.rzm.com

hope this works. The price is around 50.00 US I think ? ! help somebody....it is suppose to be pretty good from what I have heard but know nothing of Munoz's style or research.

E with questions.....
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#20 Friedrich

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Posted 18 July 2002 - 12:36 AM

Vielen Dank, Herr... what? You have not told me what you are, Mr.! :rolleyes:
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

#21 Erich

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Posted 18 July 2002 - 01:01 AM

Ah, ok, Herr Nachtjagdfleugzeugführer ...... a bit long eh ?

;) E
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#22 C.Evans

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Posted 18 July 2002 - 09:45 PM

Thanks Erich and, why are most books so expensive these days? I guess cause suckers like me will pay the price. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
:snoopy: :ww1ace:
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#23 Carl G. E. von Mannerheim

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Posted 19 July 2002 - 01:20 AM

IM suprised no one has mention the 100TH Jaeger Division, the proved themselves as great street fighters and brave soldiers as they were the last to surrender in stalingrad. Although maybe im a little biased

ww2sig3a-1.jpg

With broken heart and bowed in sadness, but not in shame, I report to your Excellency that today I must arrange terms for the surrender of the fortified islands of Manila Bay… With profound regret and the continued pride in my gallant troops I go to meet the Japanese commander. Good-Bye, Mr. President. - Gen. Wainwright, May 5, 1942


#24 C.Evans

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Posted 19 July 2002 - 07:35 PM

I like the set-up--especially the scene on the first page. It definately reminded me of my time when I was in Hagen and Hamburg back in 2000. No schnee yet though.

Did I ever mention to you that I have a set of Hauptmanns shoulderboards--from this unit? With metal and cloth cyphers. :D I picked these up from Herr Menzel of Goslar.
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
:snoopy: :ww1ace:
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#25 Friedrich

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Posted 23 July 2002 - 12:52 AM

OK, Herr Nachtjagdflugzeugführer von Brown!!!

And Carl von Mannerheim is right. 100. Jägerdivision was probably the best division in the 6. Armee. I always think about it when I speak of elite, but never mention it. Why? :confused: I don't know.

And the other Carl: yes, because suckers like US (don't forget about that :D ) will pay the price... :rolleyes:
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun




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