Wilhelm von Thoma (and "the prussian officer class")

I was reading his Wiki link.....Churchill had a wicked sense of humor. I really wish I could have spoken to him.
Upon his capture, I guess Montgomery invited von Thoma for dinner.
To quote Winston.... "I sympathize with General von Thoma: Defeated, in captivity and... (long pause for dramatic effect) dinner with Montgomery".

Anyway.....I always hear about "The Prussian Officer Class" and that Hitler, did not like them-did not trust them-was jealous of them, etc etc.
Was von Thoma fairly typical of a Prussian Officer.? They seem to be rather well educated, smart, good soldiers but also concerned about the brutal realities of war.
von Thoma seems to have been in general regret of what The Wermacht did in WWII .....including France and Poland.
Thank You

 

von Thoma was not a typical Prussian officer: he was a Bavarian oficer who gained in WWI the order of MaxJoseph and the title of Ritter .

A counsel : for your own good: if you ever would be in Munich,do never say that there is no difference between a Bavarian and a Prussian :the Bavarians are polite people,but there is a limit to everything .

After WWI,the Prussian officer class ceased to exist,because the Prussian army ceased to exist: til 1918,there was no German army,but all German states (25 of them) had their own army .

If you see a German general with the title of Ritter (knight) there is a big possibility that he is Bavarian:Ritter von Leeb,Ritter von Greim,...

 

Good points.
I guess by the time of WWII, the whole "Prussian Thing" was in its twilight.
It is just that, so often, I hear the phrase woven into a much bigger topic .....Hitler, Stalingrad, Jet Engines, Lack Of Fuel... "but the Prussian Officer class was always".......
You know...like that. It seems to be a term that holds (or did hold at the time) a lot of weight.
I have always been curious about the term, and the people it refered to.
Thanks

 

Personally I always thought that the Prussian General meant that the army was in your family, you were perhaps from Prussia or represented the Prussian army values but I definitely could be wrong. For example von Rundstedt being an example here. Hitler wanted political army, who would drive through his political means. In the late 1930´s Hitler sacked many top rank officers and changed the Army to his liking, like Blomberg etc were kicked out. More took place during the war. And anyone saying no to him was kicked out later on, except some very useful ones.

 

Those are good points.
If "things" had gone on longer/differently.....do you think the Wermacht would, ultimately, have been replaced by the SS.?
Isn't that, kind of, what Hitler wanted.?

 

Yes, Model, Schörner etc were Hitler´s favourites..

I guess this was something what Hitler wanted:

"Schorner the Nazi led the troops under his command with great severity (“More fear in the back as from the front!”) and on 1 February 1944 to head the newly created National Socialist Joint Staff of the Army appointed. In this role he was responsible for the training of the troops in the Nazi sense."

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I recall reading that Schörner was pretty weird. He could lower and promote the rank of his driver on short or long trips and the driver had two different rank uniforms with him during the trips....

 

you have bavarians, prussians, swabians, etc. i suppose you have to have "lived it" to understand the difference.

"A counsel : for your own good: if you ever would be in Munich,do never say that there is no difference between a Bavarian and a Prussian :the Bavarians are polite people,but there is a limit to everything ."

i remember once, we ate at an iranian grill and one of my friends made the mistake of referring to the proprietor as an arab. very politely he (the proprietor) said they were not arabs, but rather persians.

 

To outsiders all Germans are just Germans, but Germany looks different from the inside. Historically Germany is a rather young country, being 95 years younger than the United States. Local provinicial traditions are very strong and were stronger still 75 years ago. Prussia and the Prussians were not popular with many other Germans, and this affected the military to some extent too. I know a story of one German officer born in the old Kingdom of Hanover who chose to serve in the army of Saxony or Wurttemberg in WWI because Hanover was annexed by Prussia in 1866 and he regarded the Prussian cockade with disdain. It is a good idea to keep these differences in mind when reading about the German high command and German army politics. As you can see below, the other regions of Germany were well represented in the higher ranks, though the Prussians tended to set the overall tone. Hitler himself was an Austrian and most of his early Nazi companions were Bavarians, so he was never very impressed by the Prussian aristocracy.

Prussians: Guderian, Bock, Manstein, Kluge, Rundstedt, Kleist, Richthofen, Manteuffel, Blaskowitz, Salmuth, Stumpff, Mackensen, Weiss, Choltitz, Stulpnagel, Witzleben, Hausser, Geyr, Heinrici, Arnim, Seydlitz, Kempf, Fromm
Bavarians: Leeb, Griem, Jodl, List, Kesselring, Schorner, Brandenberger, Harpe, Dollmann, Hollidt
Hessians: Paulus, Beck
Hanoverians: Keitel, Hoth, Busch, Hoepner, Warlimont, Wohler, Jaenecke
Saxons: Model, Friessner, Herr
Austrians: Rendulic
Wurttembergers: Rommel, Sperrle, Eberbach
Brunswickers: Heusinger
Westphalians: Cruwell, Cramer, Vietinghoff

There were important class differences within the German armed forces too. Not all German generals were aristocrats by any means, and under the Nazis promotion was often given to middle-class men like Model and Rommel who would not have risen so fast or so high under the old German Empire.

 

That is interesting info.
I would imagine much of that "stuff" has faded away at this point in time.?
I will assume I am not the only, but so be it, if so.....I always thought that any officer with a "Von" in his last name was of the "Prussian Officer" system.

 

Only Germans could tell you that.

 

Schorner was worse than weird. He was one of the most brutal disciplinarians in the German army and had many of his own troops executed illegally for desertion and other offenses, real or imagined. At the end of the war he deserted himself, abandoning his command on the Eastern Front and changing into civilian clothes. He ran away and was eventually captured by the Americans. Postwar the Federal German government convicted Schorner of ordering illegal executions and he spent several years in prison for it. He was a pretty low character, so it is no wonder that Hitler was fond of him.

 

I believe it was von Thoma who after he was captured, was actually given a press conference, being paraded before the press corps by Monty. Von Thoma was asked how he would describe the North African war. His answer was, "A tactician's paradise and a quartermaster's hell."

 

There Germans generals came with different personalties and political differences. The Army Generals were typically from aristocratic families, the von did matter. (But landowners in Eastern Europe were ten a penny, and the Prussian army was stuffed full of "vons" who needed the state salary.

The Kreigsmarine was a more middle class organisation. In the C19th it was championed by the pan gwerman nationalist middle classes against the armies whose landowning officers whose loyalty lay with the individual states. There was a socialist dimension to National Socialism. The SS and Luftwaffe were positioned as new German institutions officered via meritocracy. (Though in prqactice a lot of Old Nazi cronies and thugs were promoted beyond their competence. Deitrich was considered by the Germans as grossly over promoted...

Halder's report on von Thoma was "War horse. Front line soldier through and through with inclination to be adventurous. Outstandingly practical with comprehensive technical knowledge and rich expereince of battle. A man who knows how to help out in every situation and never loses his sense of humour. Outstandingly well proven at the front."

von Thoma was described by the UK CSDIC interrogation team as "Very intelligent and exceedingly well read. He has a striking personality and is violently anti Nazi. Plays neither cards nor chess, but prefers to study art, history and politics. His reminiscences are as interesting as his political views and he has had many varies contacts with all sorts of eminent people from New York actresses to Balkan Monarchs. Entirely void of "side" and will not suffer fools gladly. He could be a great leader if only he possessed the ability to co-ordinate his ideas and the courage ot support them by action."

"Von Thomas" was also the nickname given to General Ivor Thomas, GOC of 43 Wessex Division a notorious hard task master and a man famously devoid of a sense of humour.. .

 

There is one theory that Thoma was wanting to be captured in that battle. I've seen a picture of him shortly after his capture, battle-grimed and weary giving a salute to British officer. At his feet, IIRC, was a small valise, suggesting he had packed a few things.

 

I THINK...during that same time frame, he had commented that the Italian "officers" had packed luggage...as if they were going on a vacation
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during dinner with he and Montgomery.!

 

My impression was that the "Von" indicated German nobility and not just Prussian nobility. Such may have found their way in to the "Prussian Officer system" but I don't think you can assume that either A implies B or B implies A in this case.

 

Has not faded - but turned more to make fun about the others, people from Berlin eg. would make parodies about Bavarians, while the latter would call them "Saupreissn", not really dislike but some traces of rivalry still left. But much more between west & east. Good posts btw.

 

My name is William Thoma. If you deduce a similarity between my name and Wilhelm von Thoma. There is a reason for that. The man known as General Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma is an ancestor. I grew up in foster care, and was unaware of the relation, until my time working for a General. I am 43, and spent ten years as a U.S. Marine. This was in 1994, and library's were still in use. My understanding at the time, was while a superb soldier and strategist, a Nazi. It wasn't until later in life, and the broad reach of the internet, that I came to understand him as a man.

The man was fearless, and honorable. He openly defied Hitler, yet had the respect of his men. He was sent to Africa to fail, and was wise enough to understand that. There are times, such as having my name called in a VA hospital and every once in awhile a WWII vet pops his head up, that I used to feel shame. Now, I have given serious consideration to having the "von" put back in my surname (my grandfather dropped it post WWII).

The debate of Prussian or Bavarian is moot. They are Germanic. It was not unheard of to send young men in that culture off to study the art of war. In those times, you sent them to Prussia. Prussian military companies were known for their discipline, tactics, and turned the tide of more than one conflict.

I find more and more people in interested in Wilhelm. I appreciate the objectivity I have seen.