what do you think the greatest ground attack raid is that had the most impact? such as the Bruneval raid that captured a German technician and captured radar equipment...or the great St Nazaire raid where you have great seamanship in steering the Campbeltown at night, dead on target! ..and the dramatic explosion just as the Germans were 'laughing' at British ''incompetence''.... or does the Telemark operation seem an obvious choice?? not 1, but 2 operations that destroyed Germany's heavy water and hopes of building the big bomb? this is a large subject...with many aspects..... my pick would be the St Nazaire raid that gave the British a great morale lift, along with destroying the docks,etc.... there are other raids, and I'd like to hear your input...much thanks for all
No offense to the St Nazaire raiders, but as it turned out the key objective, destruction of the drydock, had little impact on the course of the war, for the simple reason that the Germans had already given up on operating major warships in the Atlantic. While the British were planning the raid, the Germans were planning the Channel Dash which took place about a month earlier, the withdrawal of their heavy ships from the French coast. The fate of the Bismarck indicated that raiding with capital ships no longer feasible, and the entry of the United States into the war made it even less so. Ships in French ports were targets for British air attack; all three of the Channel Dashers had been hit while in Brest. Meanwhile the advent of war with Russia and the North Russian convoys created a new potential mission for battleships in home/northern waters. Of course there was a degree of value in destroying anything in the occupied territories that the Germans could use for any purpose, but they were no longer likely to need the Normandie dock for the Tirpitz.
all good points Carronade...perhaps the Nazaire raid had more of a psychological impact? being a 'grander' destructive attack? bigger, better headlines? but they thought at that time the dock would be used, is that correct?...I'm impressed they made it all the way there, hit the target, and were able to destroy it, as huge as it was....well done
My vote would be for the Battle of Berlin - the Soviet offensive. The final chapter in the destruction of Hitler's Third Reich began on April 16, 1945 when Stalin unleashed the brutal power of 20 armies, 6,300 tanks and 8,500 aircraft with the objective of crushing German resistance and capturing Berlin. I heard one (or maybe it was six) million artillery shells a day + battle hardened soldiers, tanks... Germany's Strengths: 1,000,000 soldiers (also children and elderly) 10,400 artillery 1,500 tanks 3,300 aircraft Casualties and Losses: Exact losses unknown Estimate: 400,000 killed or wounded 500,000 POW Soviet's Strengths: 2,500,000 soldiers 41,600 artillery 6,250 tanks 7,500 aircraft Casualties and Losses: 360,000 dead or missing 1,997 tanks 2,108 artillery pieces 917 aircraft WWII Soviet Experience: http://www.eisenhowerinstitute.org/about/living_history/wwii_soviet_experience.dot "Americans have little conception of the Soviet Union's experience in World War II." "When we flew into Russia, in 1945, I did not see a house standing between the western borders of the country and the area around Moscow. Through this overrun region, Marshal Zhukov told me, so many numbers of women, children and old men had been killed that the Russian Government would never be able to estimate the total." 72,000,000 people in Western Russia in 1939 and barely a single house or building left standing. http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/russia.htm Soviet troops had this thought on their mind. Retaliation. Then victory. I have to wonder just how many buildings were left standing in East Germany after the Battle of Berlin. Albeit South East Germany got off relatively lightly. I drove from Poland to East Berlin in 1973. I would drive over vacant farmlands and then run into bombed out Cloverleaf Carriageways / Flyovers (Highway Overpasses) in clusters time and again. Nothing but wheat all around them. I wish there were better films of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_vFaNHmWI
Thanks, you make good points also. Part of the British/Allied strategy was just to raid something every month or so, keep the Germans on their toes, tie down troops, help morale, and let the Soviets know their allies were doing something. A major attack on a well-known port would serve all these purposes. And of course any damage to infrastructure the Germans could use was of some value. When they started planning Operation Chariot, late 1941 I suppose, Tirpitz breaking out into the Atlantic was an eventuality that had to be considered (the USN had brought the three Idaho class battleships, the most modernized of the older BBs, from the Pacific to guard the "neutrality zone" against that possibility). Preparations were well advanced by the time of the Channel Dash, and its significance in terms of German strategy may not have been as obvious then as it seems in hindsight. They were hopeful that the raid could be carried out and the raiders escape without excessive loss, so there was a case for going on, Tirpitz or no.
IMO that's a bit more than a "raid". I don't think of raids for instance as really designed to take and hold territory. Usually they are designed to destroy certain material or to capture specific items or people then return to the launch site, although the retrun was often either problematic or not addressed.
K. I will put my thinking cap on. (That'll be a first, eh Jugga's?) The German Paratroop Raid on Crete probably extended the war by a good full half. Or Axis Oil Fields and Refineries would have been toast in a heartbeat. http://www.ww2f.com/topic/42449-nazi-occupation-of-crete/ Once all the South East European Oil facilities had been knocked, out, little thought would have been made to any other Bomber Targets in Northern Europe.
Ground raid with the most impact...That is a simple one. The Marine raid on Makin Island. Granted, that the impact it had was most definitely a negative for the attackers. The Japanese had not given much thought to fortifying their many island conquests until the Marines raided Makin. After the Makin raid, the Japanese began fortifying as many of their island atolls as possible, and this made it more difficult for the Americans later on in the war.
I seam to recall reading of a fair number of raids in North Africa. Not sure how important any of them were though. SEA also had a number of actions that might be considered as such. Again not familiar enough to single one out. It may depend on whether or not you consider an ambitious attack by an inferior force designed to take an area until relieved as a raid or not. That would describe Crete but also Eben Emael and Myitkyina airfield as well as a number of others.
Myitkyina, Berlin, Crete...those aren't raids, they are major offensive operations designed to seize and hold ground. To me, a raid is (usually) a small scale operation, designed to get in, inflict damage, and get out. Makin is indeed a good candidate for the most important such operation of WWII, but I think Dieppe (Operation JUBILEE) may have been even more important. It was on a much greater scale than most raids (which was one of the many problems with it), but it was essentially a hit-and-run operation. The consequences were very important, contributing to major revisions in Allied amphibous technique. Of course, the whole thing was a lousy idea and it should not have cost so many lives to learn things that should have been clear from the first.
I like all the Tallboy operations. The big U-boat bunkers, the big bridges, Tirpitz. What a bomb! And you needn´t always hit the bull´s eye....
many varied, interesting, and enjoyable posts..much thanks to all ...how could I forget the SAS raids that destroyed many aircraft in North Africa!?? destroying critical supplies and aircraft, plus forcing the Axis to divert troops from the front? Takao, excellent in naming a negative impact..heavy surf could've doomed the Raiders..they had a super tough time getting out.....kind of reminds me of the Choiseul Island raid with future Commandant Victor Krulak....although the kill ratio was good, from my readings, it did not accomplish the major mission of diverting attention away from Bougainville...it is one of my favorite raids..both raids are fascinating to read about I'd have to agree with Terry on what a raid is.....Dieppe was a large raid.... I was thinking ground raids...could have separate threads for air and naval raids haven't seen you in awhile Kai...
I throughout some of those that were on the fringe of what I would consider a "raid" in hopes to get more peoples opinion on what constituted one. I'm pretty much in agrement. Eben Emael remains a question mark for me of the ones I listed. I can see a case either way.
I like Makin, the Gung Ho Raid, but no real impact other than to prove we could do it. That and give the Japanese plenty of time to fortify their occupied islands. We just don't always think these great plans through.
What popped into my head was Taranto...but thats not a ground raid... Cant help thinking of the Australian raids in Nth Africa...
Eben-Emael. Naturally the troops were flown there with gliders but taking the fortress meant pretty much everything to the northern attack zone.
I haven't read, in depth, on that operation.....ground raid for sure....and a classic.....was this the first time gliders used in ''mass'' for an assault?
