Did the British really use the shotgun from Americans in WW2

They definitely on occasion (as well as Canada which was technically British Commonwealth) used the M1 Garand and the carbine against the Japs and the Aussies as well since the Brit Empire often had similar campaigns with the Americans it wasn't a logical nightmare for them to use them. However, I know the Americans when engaging in Jungle warfare were greatly assisted by their shotguns which were more useful than in Europe. I know the British used them not that long after in Malaya and such. I have however heard from some people the Chindits (an elite team of the Brits in the jungles: they used all kinds of weapons) and such used them. I don't think it's true, I mean sure they were skilled but I think it's an exaggeration. Any evidence for this claim? Sorry if it sounds incoherent/rushed or is full of run-on sentences.

 

That's a damned interesting question. I've often wondered why shotguns in warfare are such an American thing. Why wouldn't special British units use them? Or the Japanese, or the North Vietnamese for that matter?

 

Now this is just supposition.

Cost
A modern box of 20 308 cartridges costs about $10 or $.50 cents a round.

A modern box of 25 shotgun cartridges costs about $70 or $2.80 a shell.

America is rich enough to support this most other countries especially after fighting for years are not.

Versatility.

A rifle can be used in close quarters though not as well as a shotgun.

A shotgun cannot be used at long rifle ranges.

The shotgun is a powerful weapon but is very costly to use and has a very specific role.


An earlier thread on the subject. http://www.ww2f.com/topic/2854-shotguns-in-ww2/

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-436947.html

 

I don't know where you shop, but I see boxes (25 shells) of 00 buck for well under ten bucks.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/953219988/estate-ammunition-12-gauge-2-3-4-00-buckshot-9-pellets

 

Modern day ammunition prices are skewed all over the place. , in the 60's , in my 20's I do not recall great price differences between shotgun shells and centerfire rifle cartridges. We bought 30-06, 22-250, 9mm as well as .410, 20, 16 and 12 gauge....and of course in WW2 prices paid by the Army would have been lower that in the 60's but if there was a huge difference I think I would have remembered but it is certainly possible my old mind is slipping. .
I do not personally see cost as a big factor.

They would have no doubt have used US brands as the Brits made fine side by sides were in the US pumps seemed to be more popular. . Ummmmmm, a 20,000 pound Purdey side by side (WW2 pricing) would have been a beautiful trench or jungle gun. , The British had class !!! No one ever accused the Winchester 97 or model 12 of being pretty, well KB and I probably are exceptions, but I would hate to be ion the receiving end of either at close range. I feel certain I have seen a British or Commonealth infantryman holding a M 97 but it was WW1.

 

I think the British term for 00 Buck is SSG. Just the thing for leopards back in the African colonies, what?

Maybe the only real reason it's such an American thing is our early love for pump shotguns. As the professor points out, the British just produced doubles so the lack of repeaters probably kept the ordnance people from thinking about adding such an item to the inventory. I suppose the same would be true of the Japanese and North Vietnamese who faced American shotguns.

If I was in dense jungle, I'd feel pretty comfortable with a shotgun and a bandoleer of buckshot.

 

Hmmm. Apparently my price fu is weak. I'll bow to those who actually purchase ammo.

Perhaps it is just a cultural thing. I don't recall any mention of the other major powers using canister shot for cannon either.

 

This is an old story. The shotgun manufacturers pushed the shotgun as a weapon for the trenches in WW1 "Trench broom" and as a weapon for the Jungle. Its been reinforced by Hollywood which falsely portrays the shotgun as a more effective round than a ..300, .303, .357, 38 .or .45 small arm.

But this is BS. The shot gun was not a poplar weapon for clearing trenches in WW1. . A shot gun is good for killing birds and small mammals. Buckshot is not a great anti personnel weapon. If you fire a single slug it is a musket, obsolete in 1850, inferior rot the bolt action rifle. The combination of grenade plus rifle and bayonet/ sharpened spade worked and improved on by the addition of an automatic such as a Lewis gun or Bergman SMG.

Think about it. The armies of WW1 were led by men familiar with hunting and shooting.

There were no VCs awarded for wielding a shotgun, but several for men firing the Lewis from the hip.

 

That is hardly correct. A pump with slugs can fire half a dozen rounds almost as quickly as a semi auto and probably faster than a bolt action. A slug at close range carries more momentum and is likely to drop more KE than a rifle round. I've seen shotguns with bayonet lugs as well.

 

Read up on the use of shotguns in combat my friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun

You might appreciate this little snippet as well. This is taken from wiki of course.

Invented in the 16th century by the Dutch, the blunderbuss was used through the 18th century in warfare by British, Austrian, and Prussian regiments, as well as in the American colonies. As use of the blunderbuss declined, the United States military began loading smaller lead shot in combination with their larger bullets, a combination known as "buck and ball". The buck and ball load was used extensively by Americans at the Battle of New Orleans in 1814 and was partially responsible for the disparate casualty rates between American and British forces. The advantage of this loading was that it had a greater chance of hitting the enemy, thus taking wounded soldiers out of a fight. The disadvantage of this load was that the buckshot did not cause as severe wounds at longer ranges, and contemporary accounts show many of the British wounded recovering quickly as they had been struck by the buckshot rather than the ball. Fowling pieces were commonly used by militias, for example during the Texas Revolution. However, buck and ball worked as well or better in standard or even rifled muskets. Buck and ball loads were used by both sides of the American Civil War, often by cavalry units.




This Texan Confederate cavalryman liked his shotgun. Obviously he liked great big Bowie knives too.





This US Marine probably found that the shotgun came in handy in clearing rooms.




This WW2 Marine's weapon of preference was the good old shotgun too. Probably came in handy clearing caves and bunkers since there were not many houses and rooms in the islands of the PTO.




Here's another Marine with a shotgun. Man, the Marines really like their shotguns.




Here you go lwd, the shotgun w/bayonet lug and bayonet. Probably just a Marine thing. You know how much the Marines likes bayonet lugs on things. I bet that formerjughead has a bayonet lug on his _________ (fill in the blank yourself). We had shotguns in the Army too. They had bayonet lugs as well. When we went to the field, the platoon sergeants and first sergeant carried them to shoot at bears in case they got in too close (we were in Alaska, ask Kodiakbeer about bears in Alaska when they get in too close).




Now this is just too cool. A clip fed automatic shotgun. Dang I bet that thing is just "fantastic" as John Denver would say. This is a Daewoo USAS-12, a South Korean made weapon. No bayonet lug is pictured here, so I guess the USMC won't accept it into their arsenal. So it looks as if the shotgun will have it's place in modern warfare for some time to come. At least in South Korea and the US of A that is.

 

At close range a shotgun with 00 buck is far more deadly than any FMJ rifle or pistol round. You're shooting nine .33 caliber balls at 1200 fps. I would guess that nobody has ever taken a load of buck to the chest and lived. Plenty of people have survived a FMJ rifle round to the chest.

Just for comparison, a 9mm is 35 caliber and traveling at about the same speed. So, at 20 yards where the spread is less than a foot wide, it's like shooting somebody 9 times with a 9mm. And you have another 9 slugs on tap instantly, and another four (9 slug) shots behind that one. You can throw out 6 shots (54 slugs) in 4 or 5 seconds.

At 50 yards you're still going to get a pattern about 24 to 30 inches wide (with the open choke of military shotguns), so you're still going to get 4 or 5 hits on your target. In Americanese, "buckshot" was named that because it was used for deer hunting. You could take your fowling piece (if that's all you had) and kill big game. If it will kill deer, it's also a good people killer - within the limited range of the shot spread. Yet, even at 100 yards you still have better than even odds of putting one or more of those balls into your target.

In the right environment, a shotgun is an excellent weapon.

 

Cow tipping must have a different meaning in Alabama.

 

I think you will find that the disparity on casualties between the American and British troops at the battle of New Orleans had more to do with the American deployment in entrenchments supported by a flanking battery!

Wiki reads like promotional literature.

Oh yeah?

Sure, shotguns may have been popular with some individual Americans and the USMC. Shot guns were not part of the British and commonwealth armoury.

The Administrative History of 21st Army Group includes the daily rates of ammunition for 49 different weapons from 20 rounds per day of 240mm Howitzer to 30 bangalore torpedoes per infantry division per day. Serials 30-38 covers small arms from 15mm Besa to .38 and .45" pistol ammunition, with no mention of shotgun cartridges. Shotgun ammunition was not supplied for British, Canadian or Polish troops fighting in NW Europe.

Partisans may have used shotguns, but mainly because they were their own hunting weapons and had not been supplied with military weapons.. The Sten gun was the weapon supplied by the million. Given the chance to add weapons to a infantry squad the popular choices were extra Bren guns Thompsons or if available the MG 34 or MG42.

I am not an expert on the Buima campaign, but I would be surprised if the Chindits, infantrymen at the end of a very long supply chain were equipped with shotguns. The famous photograph of Calvert and Lumley has one of them with a US .30 carbine, a popular choice regarding weapon and ammunition weight.

Some shotguns may have been used by individuals, but these would mainly have their own private weapons and probably used for sport or the pot.

PS as alluded to in the wkipedia article the use of lead shot was against the Hague convention http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1899f.htm So OK for use against civilians tyou might suspect of being terrorists, but not against lawful combatants.

 

The American argument was that since we were using chilled shot (hardened lead) there was no expansion and therefore it was legal under the convention. It's a far different thing than using a soft point rifle slug designed to expand.

On a related note, US ordnance is at this very moment debating a change to hollow points for pistol ammunition.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/tech/2015/07/09/handgun-system-solicitation-hollowpoint/29886907/

 

That picture of the marine with the camo helmet cover is the only picture I've ever seen of an American infantry man carrying a shotgun in WWII. Are you sure that wasn't taken during the Korean War? I've seen a couple of books mention some units using shotguns but I'm skeptical. The USAAF used a lot of pump shotguns to train air gunners in how to lead targets. That might explain the shotgun ammo being shipped to Britain.

I sure wouldn't want to use a shotgun for very close range fighting. 00 buck doesn't spread out very much until at least 20 yards, and even then it is only about a 10" pattern and you only have four or five shots before you have to reload a tubular magazine.

 

You have to aim them. It's comparable to firing a 9 shot burst from a Sten and having them all hit the aiming point. You'd have to reload the Sten after about 3 such bursts.

Go to google images and type in something like "WWII Marines shotgun" and you'll find hundreds of pix.