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My Father..Salvador De los Santos Sr. and some questions

Discussion in 'What Granddad did in the War' started by sdsantos, Aug 14, 2015.

  1. sdsantos

    sdsantos New Member

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    [SIZE=12pt]Hello All,[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]I’d like to share some image files of my father’s separation paper (back) and also a photo of him in, what I believe were Class A’s of that era, less his headgear. I have some questions about both. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]From my research, I have come across a site with information which assists in interpreting the discharge documents of that era. I have not vetted the site, but I would be inclined to believe the information shared is fairly accurate (link below). [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]http://www.80thdivision.com/PDFs/ReadingUnderstandingWWIIDischargeDocument.pdf. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Referring to their pdf and from reading what others have posted regarding the information contained within the boxes, I can make some general assumptions. For instance, my understanding is that my father’s ASN, beginning with “38” would indicate he had been drafted.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]However, there seems to be missing information, such as the qualifications or marksmanship badges. The comment is “None” for Box 31, but I have read some post with others seeing this on discharge papers as well and thinking it odd as infantry men would have qualified with the M-1 Garand at least. Perhaps the document is incomplete, I’m not sure, but whatever the case maybe, the information in the document doesn’t seem to match what is being worn in the photo. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]When you review the separation document and view the photo, there are few issues that stand out. The Combat Patch, which to my understanding is that of the 12th Army Corps and not the 80th ID which was the last unit he was assigned to. From reading the pdf mentioned above, I understand why this was the case.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]The photo did not capture the rank. Box 3 of the separation papers show PFC, but Box 38 indicates Tec 3. From what I have seen, the Tec 3 rank would be three chevrons, one rocker, and a “T” between them. I’m not sure if that is correct, but that is all I could find searching the internet. I’m not too sure why there is a discrepancy with this, unless he got “busted down” for some reason.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Above the right breast pocket, which is not shown in the picture, you can see something. I am not sure what would be worn there, perhaps a Presidential Unit Citation? [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Above the left breast pocket are the ribbons, but there appears to be more than the four listed in the discharge papers. I am thinking that there are six-ribbons. A safe assumption would be he is wearing at least three ribbons on the bottom row, but I am thinking it is most likely 4. Whichever the case, it appears more than the four-ribbons listed. Unfortunately, the photo is blurred so it is difficult to identify the ribbons.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Now the big one; look at the object worn above the ribbons. There is something there. To me the shape and the location at which it is worn would indicate a CIB. If you adjust the picture with the contrast, you can clearly see something is there. Whatever it is, it is not listed in the discharge papers.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]On a side note, I believed he was assigned to C Co., 611th Tank Destroyer Battalion at some point. Possibly state side in training? [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Your thoughts and comments are welcomed, as well as appreciated.[/SIZE]

    View attachment 22865 View attachment 22866
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Regards to your father for serving my - our - country.

    I get a 404 error accessing the site you provided.

    38 is a number representing the geographical area that he entered service from, which in this case included Texas.

    His MOS in box 30 shows him to be an MP, not an infantryman, although he could have served in an infantry unit at some time. You say he was in an infantry division, which is possible and he still not be an infantryman, as different parts of the division had different specialties.

    The patch you see in the picture is on his right shoulder, which is for units that he had served with previously. That sound reasonable also, as a corps was a large, ever-changing formation, made up largely of command and support units to which divisions and other units were attached as needed. An MP company would have also been a integral part of a corps. You really need to see his other shoulder to know which unit he was in at the time the photo was made

    A Technician Grade 3 was roughly equivalent to a staff sergeant in rank but was intended for men who had a special skill not necessarily intended for command in direct combat. e.g. clerk, mechanic. Air gunners often had technician stripes but were not expected to have command responisiblities. One reason this was done was to provide men with needed skills with higher rank and pay without giving him command of "combat" soldiers.

    Looking on his left breast (our right looking at the photo) at his ribbon rack, I can't really distinguish any specific ribbon from the others, but it does look like to me as though he has a Combat Infantry Badge (CIB) above his ribbon rack. The others can weigh in agree or disagree. Having that would make me think he served as an infantryman. I don't see anything that looks like Presidential Unit Citation (PUC), unless the photo has been trimmed.

    My supposition is that he joined the army and served as an MP in the 12 Corps, where he made Tech 3 rank as an MP.. He then, either by choice or was volun-told, to go to an infantry formation, where he was reduced in rank to PFC, as he was not qualified to hold a Tech 3 position in a purely infantry formation and all other Tech 3 slots were already filled. Just conjecture, though, based on what you have presented. In Dec-Jan 1945, the army in Europe was needing infantry replacements and support units were combed out for personnel to shifted to the infantry regiments.

    He may have arrived in the US with the 80th, but not actually have served with that formation. As troops were coming home, they were assigned points based on longevity, awards for valor, etc and men with higher points came home first (in theory). They did not send them home individually, but in formation, so oftentimes, men in different units were shuffled around to get "high point" men in the same unit that was shipping out, even though they may have not actually served with that unit. e.g. The 30th Infantry Division and the 77th ID swapped high and low point men in June, 1945, since the 30th was slated to go to the Pacific and the 77th was not.

    As far as the qualification badges, they were not necessarily required unless he was wearing Class-As. Not knowing when the photo was made also is a hindrance, though if that is a CIB above his ribbons, it very well could have been late war. It would have been good for him to have been turned the other way (left shoulder divisional patch) and they had gotten his stripes. He may have not had his service records when he arrived at the separation center, he could have been in a hurry to get home, there could have been a language issue; there are many reasons no qualification were listed. I would think that as an MP, he would have at least qualified with the 1911 and the carbine.
     
  3. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Are you certain he was drafted?

    He was around 35 when he joined/ drafted

    Was he a citizen and/or married at the time? There is box in the upper right with with AUS (Army of the US) in it. AUS usually means they were drafted. I am assuming that he was Filipino at the time of induction. With the Philippines being a US territory at the time, was he a US citizen? I don't know how that worked back then. The reason I bring that up is that I am wondering if he volunteered for service but was not placed in the Regular Army because he was not a US citizen?
     
  4. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    I believe you mean the 76th ID rather than the 77th (already in the PTO). My son's maternal great grandfather was a low pointer in the 76th who was swapped over to the 30th ID in June/July 1945. His discharge paper has 30th ID rather than the 76th ID.


    BTW, I cleaned up the link to the PDF: www.80thdivision.com/PDFs/ReadingUnderstandingWWIIDischargeDocument.pdf
     
  5. sdsantos

    sdsantos New Member

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    Thanks for the response; I appreciate it.

    No, I am not certain he was drafted, but with all the information out there, I could have misread something and assumed the wrong thing. I actually think this is the case. I had confused the ASN with AUS. That is why I assumed he was drafted. I had always thought that he had enlisted, but the AUS threw me.

    Yes, my father was older when he joined. His family was killed during the occupation of the Philippines and I believed he enlisted sometime after that.

    You might be correct with your hunch that he was not placed in the Regular Army because he was not a citizen. He was actually naturalized in February 1943 at Camp Bowie, Texas. His records show his induction to be October 22, 1942. He was naturalized while serving.

    I have a short article written on my father that mentions C Co., 611th Tank Destroyer Battalion. This is the only reason I brought that up. I was planning to post it as well, but I received a message saying I was exceeding the limit. I think it was written to be a morale boosting article prior to the men being deployed or it could be just about one man in the Army. I want to post it in this response, but can't see the attachment button...I'll put it up here somehow.

    Yes, I wish we could have seen more in that picture, but that's what we have.

    Again, thanks for your input and your hunch with the citizenship makes sense.

    Sal
     
  6. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    The 611th TD Bn saw Continental USA service only and was deactivated in Feb 1945. It is possible that he did serve for a short time with the 611th before going overseas. However, while news articles can be helpful, they can also be misleading. It would be best to have some corroborating evidence.
     
  7. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Naw, it was the 71st, not the 77th. I'm a dork in a hurry.

    thanks!

    Earned his citizenship the hard way. Good man.
    I would not think you should be over the attachment limit. If you want, I can send you my email via private message and you can mail it to me and I'll post it for you? Just let me know.
     
  8. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    As an experienced dork, I can assure you it takes more that that to qualify for the dork club. ;)

    I'll defer to you on the 71st, since I don't know much about that Division. However, the 76th and 30th did swap low & high pointers.
     
  9. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Sometimes (actually a lot) I'm not real bright. I had to go back a look at my notes. It was the 76th. I don't know what I was thinking.
     
  10. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    No worries, Jeff. BTDT myself a few times.
     
  11. sdsantos

    sdsantos New Member

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    I would not think you should be over the attachment limit. If you want, I can send you my email via private message and you can mail it to me and I'll post it for you? Just let me know.

    Yeah, not sure why I was having difficulty with the attachments. I thought I was under the limit, but still had to reduce them significantly to finally get them uploaded.

    I sent you a PM with my contact. When we get the opportunity to exchange information, I am hoping you might be able to add the article to this thread, if possible.

    Again, thanks for your assistance.

    Sal
     

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