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Cold War an extension of Nazi Policy


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#26 KJ Jr

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 01:03 AM

ok Kj..I have to say the nazi regime caused the most destruction, murder, etc only because they had the technology--if that's what you mean.....but there have been many evil regimes.....the Hutus murdered more Tutsis faster, ....so more people, by percentage, participated directly in the murders....


There is no way I am starting up that debate Bronk, lol.

My point was explaining why members, IMO, have a problem with comparing the US Cold War policy to the Nazi policy of propoganda. It's a tough sell for anyone.
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
 

 

#27 Belasar

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 06:50 PM

The central problem with the original premise is in the statement that US Cold War 'policy' was very similar to Nazi Policy. When one speaks of Nazi Policy the natural response is to contemplate the Final Solution in all it's malevolent splendor. The OP amended it somewhat by saying he only meant as it pertained to fear/hatred of Soviet Communism and the propaganda effort directed to that.

 

Unfortunately the OP included 'eugenic's and segregation' as part of his proof for this connection to a similar policy between Cold War America and the Third Reich. Awfully hard not to infer the worst from this. Worse they are not even good fodder for the discussion when looked at dispassionately.

 

Eugenic's had largely been discredited before American entry into WWII and was a taboo subject after the revelations of Germany's Final Solution. Please feel free to cite any that took place after 1945 and before the fall of the Soviet Union, but they are few and far between. Those that may have were not US government 'policy'. Regrettably many enlightened nations flirted with the pseudo science of Eugenics in the first half of the 20th century, but no one took it to the extremes that Hitler's Germany did and all officially dropped it after WWII.

 

Then there is Segregation.

 

Both Eugenics and Segregation have their root in racism which is hardly a Nazi invention. Racism predates Hitler by at least 3,500 years of recorded history and probably goes back to before the first encounter between Homo Sapiens and their less advanced cousins.

 

The thing is during the Cold War no greater progress took place in race relations and the fair treatment of African Americans than this period except for the Civil War. Truman integrated the Military in the late 1940's, the Federal government used all its organs, including the US military, to enforce civil rights. Not very Nazi like is it. A hard process to be sure and some work remains to be done even today, but the racism came from the bottom up, not the top down as it would in Hitler's Germany.

 

More to the point the generic racism practiced within the US had little impact on the Soviet Union. Not many 'African-Russians' over there, nor were we agitating about the Jewish population within Russia. Indeed they had more to fear from Moscow than Washington. Look up the "Doctor's Plot" of Soviet history. Nazi racism was founded on anti Pan Slavic feelings, our quibble had to do with Communism as a form of government. True Nazi propaganda denounced Communism, but even if they had been Republican's Hitler would still  have invaded.

 

Which brings us to the final point. We never invaded Russia, nor seriously contemplated the idea. We were ready to make them glow if they got too frisky, but US policy was to contain Russian Communism, not destroy it utterly. In fact it was called Containment from the beginning. Again, not very Nazi like.

 

We used some of the same tools to do this, but they were the only tools available and the same as Russia used against us. 


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#28 lwd

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 07:57 PM

....

 Regrettably many enlightened nations flirted with the pseudo science of Eugenics in the first half of the 20th century, but no one took it to the extremes that Hitler's Germany did and all officially dropped it after WWII.

 

....

Both Eugenics and Segregation have their root in racism which is hardly a Nazi invention

....

 

I disagree with a fair amount of this.  Eugenics isn't a pseudo science it's simply the application of selective breeding to humans.  The problem isn't so much with the science but the application.  For one thing people haven't been very good at selecting what traits to breed for even in dogs (witness a number  of breeds that have been rendered near on to useless due to breeding for certain traits).  The  other and related question is who should get to decide and perhaps more important should anyone get to decide.  The problem with Egenics isn't science it's politics and philosophy (and arguably religion).



#29 KJ Jr

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 12:11 AM

I disagree with a fair amount of this. Eugenics isn't a pseudo science it's simply the application of selective breeding to humans. The problem isn't so much with the science but the application. For one thing people haven't been very good at selecting what traits to breed for even in dogs (witness a number of breeds that have been rendered near on to useless due to breeding for certain traits). The other and related question is who should get to decide and perhaps more important should anyone get to decide. The problem with Egenics isn't science it's politics and philosophy (and arguably religion).


I would have to agree. Yes, there is a science to eugenics, but the philosophy of selection has momentous moral and political issues. It's a question of power. Those who are deemed suitable will likely be those that are pulling the strings.
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#30 lwd

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 12:30 PM

Not just power but even defining what is desirable is a rather difficult thing.  Some things can be easily recognized as undesirable but even now figuring out if other traits offset them or not is not a trivial exercise.



#31 Belasar

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 09:34 PM

I concede there is a element of science involved, but all too often mad science. lwd points out himself that so many 'pure bred' breeds of dog have serious health and temperament problems not seen in mixed breed 'mutts', who in my experience have always been better dogs. Then there is our genetically engineered crops which have both negative impacts on the environment and are often susceptible to problems of their own.

 

Gene splicing/ therapy might make a better human or be the end of humanity itself.


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#32 KJ Jr

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 02:49 PM



Gene splicing/ therapy might make a better human or be the end of humanity itself.


Your right about that. If eugenics were to proceed in the modern era, the science would be a huge component.
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
 

 

#33 lwd

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:34 PM

With Eugenics the how isn't all that much of a problem in many ways.  The why, the what, and the who on the other hand are huge problems.  There have been a number (well at least 2) SF stories by the title of Bladerunner (ignoring the movie based Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep I believe).  One of them dealt very well with a seemingly very successful Eugenics campaign that went horribly wrong.  (of course the premise - that physical health was the key characteristic to select for was rather questionable to begin with).



#34 GunSlinger86

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 07:02 PM

I meant Nazi policy in regards to Communism, and I'm in no way saying the US is an Occultist murderous regime like the Nazis were, they were basically all Occultists... I didn't say the US was out to kill Jews or any other Nazi policies, just that one area.  And we expanded West and killed and put Native Americans in forced camps along the way. 

 

That one 25 point example.. Jewish is a religion, so that doesn't make sense at all.  A person who practices Judaism born in Germany would technically have German blood.



#35 Belasar

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 08:08 PM

I meant Nazi policy in regards to Communism, and I'm in no way saying the US is an Occultist murderous regime like the Nazis were, they were basically all Occultists... I didn't say the US was out to kill Jews or any other Nazi policies, just that one area.  And we expanded West and killed and put Native Americans in forced camps along the way. 

 

 

 

 

 

Mixed message much?


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#36 lwd

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 12:04 PM

I meant Nazi policy in regards to Communism,...

 

Well you can make a case for it if you ignore the setting and the differences and only look at the similarities.  Even then not a particularly strong case though.



#37 Ben Dover

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 08:57 PM

It seems during the Cold War the US hatred, feelings, distrust, propaganda, and actions against Communism was similar if not alike to Nazi policy.  It was almost if we took over for the Nazis in the fight against Communism after we defeated them.  There are many similarities between Nazism/Fascism and US policies: Segregation, Eugenics, hatred of Communism along with negative propaganda against Russian Communism, economic policy where property and business is still privately owned but the government has a hand in controlling it (New Deal, Corporatism/Fascism).

 






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