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Hillary Clinton


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#26 CAC

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 12:28 PM

Interesting you say she's a war Mongerer Sloniksp...the way I've heard her speak in the past led me to think the same thing...I'm wondering though whether the over tough rhetoric from her is just a way of playing with the big boys and be taken seriously...problem I see here, for what it's worth, is the 'Thatcher Syndrome' (my creation) where a situation arises and her opponents and even the media may see her as weak because she's a woman, so there's an over reaction, war. And where is most likely to flare up at the moment? South China Sea methinks...really don't like how this is all panning out...

Edited by CAC, 08 June 2016 - 12:29 PM.

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#27 KJ Jr

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 01:47 PM

I can't really blame her for the strong stance on foreign policy. She is a woman and Trump has used it to take advantage. I have seen that as well. My opinion is at least she takes a stance on something. Trump has no policy on anything. I am really not looking forward to Nov.


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#28 lwd

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 03:31 PM

Hillary is a neoCon in skirt. She's a war mongerer IMO. Victoria Nuland will be her Secretary of State her husband is Robert Kagan (die hard NeoCon). Get ready for endless wars....

I'm certainly no fan of Clinton but I think you have pushed things well beyond reason in this.  The "war monger" title in particular doesn't hold much if any water.  NeoCon doesn't seem to fit real well either although I'm not sure there's even a clear widely accepted definition of that term.



#29 O.M.A.

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 03:40 PM

I'm going Gary Johnson in November, ever hear him speak? He talks like a human being, not a salesman. A vote for either of the other two twats is unAmerican.

I am the most default Rogue of all.


#30 rkline56

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:05 PM

Us Brits have our own problems but a choice between Clinton and Trump seems to put Americans between a rock and a hard place.

And since the media spins everything so well, we are left with very poor information, never knowing what may or not be truth. We cannot see well for the fog of this or that. 


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#31 rkline56

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:09 PM

Interesting you say she's a war Mongerer Sloniksp...the way I've heard her speak in the past led me to think the same thing...I'm wondering though whether the over tough rhetoric from her is just a way of playing with the big boys and be taken seriously...problem I see here, for what it's worth, is the 'Thatcher Syndrome' (my creation) where a situation arises and her opponents and even the media may see her as weak because she's a woman, so there's an over reaction, war. And where is most likely to flare up at the moment? South China Sea methinks...really don't like how this is all panning out...

Nice analysis, perhaps very close to the reality. China has nothing but time so we hope the China Sea chess game plays out slowly according to Sun Tzu's philosophies. The end game is Taiwan which heralds the age we do not want to ever see. So far the cooler heads have prevailed, thank heavens to mergutroid.


" I have heard. You are the grey rider. You would not make peace with the Bluecoats. You may go in peace." Chief Ten Bears

#32 KodiakBeer

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 05:02 PM

I agree. Whatever your politics, it's the abuse of capitalism that has enabled immigration to evolve into this negative connotation.

 

Actually, it's defining illegal immigration as immigration that is at the root of the matter.  Both sides want it to continue.  The Republicans see them as cheap labor, the Dems see them as potential voters (hence the faux outrage against states requiring voters to present an identification).  The whole thing is rather silly since it is easily solved by holding employers responsible, and eliminating social services for non-citizens.  That's why I don't "get" why Trump is popular on this issue.  Doesn't anyone see the enormous gaping chasm in his argument?

 

We should probably increase legal immigration quotas from Latin America if we ever get the illegal immigration under control.  


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#33 lwd

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 05:19 PM

Actually increasing legal quotas might be a good way of controlling illegal quotas.



#34 toki2

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 05:20 PM

Actually, it's defining illegal immigration as immigration that is at the root of the matter.  Both sides want it to continue.  The Republicans see them as cheap labor, the Dems see them as potential voters (hence the faux outrage against states requiring voters to present an identification).  The whole thing is rather silly since it is easily solved by holding employers responsible, and eliminating social services for non-citizens.  That's why I don't "get" why Trump is popular on this issue.  Doesn't anyone see the enormous gaping chasm in his argument?

 

We should probably increase legal immigration quotas from Latin America if we ever get the illegal immigration under control.  

I agree that lumping immigration and 'illegal' immigration clouds the issue. We are having the same discussions (actually, ranting and raving) regarding the EU referendum. I am of the belief that if we need workers with skills - in any discipline - from surgeons to labourers then they should be welcomed. I also think that we should have the right to decide who does or does not come to the UK with allowances for true refugees of whatever colour or creed.



#35 Mussolini

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 10:13 PM

It'll be an election between the lesser of two evils...which is why I am writing Otto in!   :salute:

 

I think one can safely say that the current political climate (IE. Hillary and the Trump) are a reflection of the Obama Administration and where things stand in this country right now? I think one can safely draw their own conclusions based on the candidates and their predecessor. 


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#36 Otto

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 10:56 PM

It'll be an election between the lesser of two evils...which is why I am writing Otto in!   :salute:

Now there is a white elephant. Who would want that job?! You can keep it Musso! :D
:otto_pistolfire: :mattc:


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#37 Belasar

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:54 AM

Anyone who writes in Otto for President get automatic cooler time.....if he leaves i'll actually have to do work around here and that's not happening!


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#38 gtblackwell

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 01:44 AM

Belasar. I PMed some of the members and we agreed to double your salary to stay on if Otto accepts a third party draft. a done deal.



#39 Belasar

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 03:59 AM

Twice bupkiss is still bupkiss!


Wars are rarely fought in black and white, but in infinite shades of grey

(Poppy is occasionaly correct, or so I hear)


#40 Kai-Petri

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 05:01 AM

If Trump does win I´d like to see the wall he´s gonna build...

 

Hillary at least will definitely beat Trump about foreign politics. Bet Trump thinks that Europe is a country and its capital is Europe. If he wants to isolate the US as I seem to see it, as he blames Europe and the EU, and is gonna build a wall against Mexico, one great politician move? Just my thoughts about it.

 

Hillary has some nasty deals in his books but will that make her lose the campaign against Trump?


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#41 Sloniksp

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:37 AM

What planet do you live on?
Trump is quite obviously for Trump. Certainly not for government but not for the people either. His business interest have repeatedly been designed to take advantage of (possibly to the extent of fraud) of the "People".

That isn't very nice. According to the polls, it's safe to say that many in this country stand firm behind Trump and his beliefs.

If it had any real accuracy yes it would be good but since it's just another example of what Trump will say to sell himself and his latest scam.....
Hardly. To anyone who has looked at all closely to what's happened and how such things are handled it's pretty much business as usual. Somewhat disappointing but hardly "mind boggling". Certainly not on the level of having two such disappointing candidates representing our two major parties.

This is your opinion. The same can be said about the other candidate.

As for how Hillary has gotten this far is in fact a very good question. Many in the US and around the world would rather see Hillary in a court room than the Oval Office. Her foreign policy alone is extremely dangerous and arrogant. With Victoria Nuland (whom I suspect) will be her Secretary of State is no cause for celebration.

I imagine Hillarys plan for removing fiscal debt would be to place all of it on a private server and then deleting it? :D

Edited by Sloniksp, 09 June 2016 - 06:39 AM.

The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

#42 Sloniksp

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:48 AM

If Trump does win I´d like to see the wall he´s gonna build...


It already exists in many places just does.not have enough personnel to guard it. Several years ago Hillary also proposed such measures but as we here in the states know, she flip flops quite often.

Hillary at least will definitely beat Trump about foreign politics. Bet Trump thinks that Europe is a country and its capital is Europe. If he wants to isolate the US as I seem to see it, as he blames Europe and the EU, and is gonna build a wall against Mexico, one great politician move? Just my thoughts about it.


I have my money on Trump. All he has to do is remind the American people of her WAR mongering. She voted for war in Iraq, supported the destruction of Lybia (laughing while the Islamists executed Gaddafii). Was involved in Ukraine and supported the illegal intervention in Syria, even calling for a no fly zone and shooting down Russian planes..... Yup her foreign policy is brilliant!

Can't wait for Trump to wipe the floor with her.

Lets not forget about her taking financial contributions from foreign states such as Saudi Arabia!!!! What a patriot she is!
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

#43 Sloniksp

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:50 AM

It'll be an election between the lesser of two evils...which is why I am writing Otto in! :salute:

I think one can safely say that the current political climate (IE. Hillary and the Trump) are a reflection of the Obama Administration and where things stand in this country right now? I think one can safely draw their own conclusions based on the candidates and their predecessor.


He's alive!!!!!
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

#44 lwd

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:15 PM

That isn't very nice.

Some times the truth isn't.

 

According to the polls, it's safe to say that many in this country stand firm behind Trump and his beliefs.

A few flaws in your logic there.  There are quite a few people in this country, although far from the majority, that agree to some extent with what Trump says.  That doesn't mean that it's what he believes by any means.  Trump has a pretty clear history of saying whatever will "close the deal" for him at the time.  It's unfortunate that many of his supporters haven't really looked closely enough at his history to figure that out.

 

This is your opinion. The same can be said about the other candidate.

Indeed it is my opinion but it is one based solidly on fact and logic.  Indeed it can be said about Hillary as well some with considerable justification but I wasn't replying to a post about her was I?

 

As for how Hillary has gotten this far is in fact a very good question. Many in the US and around the world would rather see Hillary in a court room than the Oval Office. Her foreign policy alone is extremely dangerous and arrogant.

Except for the part about her foreign policy being extremely dangerous and arrogant I'd agree.  Now if you had generalized the latter I'd say you were understating the case.. With Victoria Nuland (whom I suspect) will be her Secretary of State is no cause for celebration.
 

I imagine Hillarys plan for removing fiscal debt would be to place all of it on a private server and then deleting it?

You think she has that much of a plan? 

 

.... All he has to do is remind the American people of her WAR mongering. She voted for war in Iraq, supported the destruction of Lybia (laughing while the Islamists executed Gaddafii). Was involved in Ukraine and supported the illegal intervention in Syria, even calling for a no fly zone and shooting down Russian planes.....

...

That's an incredibly distorted representation of what happened.  The definition of warmonger that I looked defines it as promoting aggressive war.  So looking at your examples:

 

The war in Iraq - Iraq committed acts of war against the US and failed to live up to treaties agreements with regards to Sadam's aggression.  That's pretty clearly not an aggressive war.

 

Lybia - Lybia was already coming apart NATO and the US acted to limit civilian casualties.  Indeed it can be argued that the limited response was one of the reasons there are so many issues there now.  So the problem was not the intervention nor does this really qualify as aggressive war.  I'd like to see a source on her laughing when Gaddafi was executed but I certainly don't have any sympathy for him.

 

Ukraine - It's hardly promoting aggressive war to support a country that we have a treaty with that another country has broken.  Indeed the US support to the Ukraine has been such as to  limit the conflict rather than see it run out of control.  Russia and Putin were clearly the aggressors here and in violation treaties with a number of powers including the US and in violation of their obligations as a member of the UN.

 

Syria - nothing illegal about our intervention there.  I'd like to see your sources where she calls for shooting down Russian planes.  Not that I have all that strong of objections to those who support Assad suffering for the same.

 



 



#45 KJ Jr

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 03:21 PM

This is exactly what makes politics ridiculous to argue. It reminds of certain religious devouts (in no way am I knocking religion, to each his own) who judge others because they believe their faith is the "best." It's the same with politics. Instead of being proactive about the issues, as KB was doing, others expound how others are wrong, without any opinions of their own. Beginning a sentence with a negative will never end in a positive. You may not agree with someone beliefs, but listen and counter it with something of substance, not just words degrading other's views.

 

Rant over.


Edited by KJ Jr, 09 June 2016 - 03:21 PM.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
 

 

#46 LRusso216

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 03:48 PM

No one will ever change anyone's mind by stating his or her views. You can argue til you're blue in the face, but ultimately your ideas are worth no
more than those of anyone else. I'll close now.

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#47 Sloniksp

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 05:20 PM

Some times the truth isn't.

A few flaws in your logic there. There are quite a few people in this country, although far from the majority, that agree to some extent with what Trump says. That doesn't mean that it's what he believes by any means. Trump has a pretty clear history of saying whatever will "close the deal" for him at the time. It's unfortunate that many of his supporters haven't really looked closely enough at his history to figure that out.

Indeed it is my opinion but it is one based solidly on fact and logic. Indeed it can be said about Hillary as well some with considerable justification but I wasn't replying to a post about her was I?

Except for the part about her foreign policy being extremely dangerous and arrogant I'd agree. Now if you had generalized the latter I'd say you were understating the case.. With Victoria Nuland (whom I suspect) will be her Secretary of State is no cause for celebration.

Again we will agree to disagree

You think she has that much of a plan?

:D

That's an incredibly distorted representation of what happened. The definition of warmonger that I looked defines it as promoting aggressive war. So looking at your examples:

The war in Iraq - Iraq committed acts of war against the US and failed to live up to treaties agreements with regards to Sadam's aggression. That's pretty clearly not an aggressive war.

Lybia - Lybia was already coming apart NATO and the US acted to limit civilian casualties. Indeed it can be argued that the limited response was one of the reasons there are so many issues there now. So the problem was not the intervention nor does this really qualify as aggressive war. I'd like to see a source on her laughing when Gaddafi was executed but I certainly don't have any sympathy for him.

Ukraine - It's hardly promoting aggressive war to support a country that we have a treaty with that another country has broken. Indeed the US support to the Ukraine has been such as to limit the conflict rather than see it run out of control. Russia and Putin were clearly the aggressors here and in violation treaties with a number of powers including the US and in violation of their obligations as a member of the UN.

Syria - nothing illegal about our intervention there. I'd like to see your sources where she calls for shooting down Russian planes. Not that I have all that strong of objections to those who support Assad suffering for the same.

None of the US military interventions above were approved by the UN Security Council nor asked for by the country's internationally recognized govts. This makes them illegal.

Below is a video which was sent to me by a friend. It's in Russian but with US subtitles. Russian Secretary of State, Lavrov is grilled by a famous Russian reporter on Russia's INACTION in Ukraine....

http://russia-inside...r-video/ri14791

Russia is in Syria legally. Russia is bombing terrorists legally. When Russia is flying in Syria and Hillary calls for. a no fly zone in the area, how does one in force it?

Edited by Sloniksp, 09 June 2016 - 05:28 PM.

The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

#48 lwd

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 05:58 PM

....
None of the US military interventions above were approved by the UN Security Council nor asked for by the country's internationally recognized govts. This makes them illegal.

Not really.  You need to take a closer look at the UN charter.

 

...
Russia is in Syria legally. Russia is bombing terrorists legally. When Russia is flying in Syria and Hillary calls for. a no fly zone in the area, how does one in force it?

In some senses of the word the Russian intervention in Syria is legal.  However aiding Assad who is quite clearly a war criminal brings to question that "legal" status in some ways.  Then there's the quite clear case of the Russian interventions in Georgia and the Ukraine being illegal in the case of the Ukraine in at least two and probably more ways.  As for no fly zones there are a number of ways of enforcing them or not.  Note that she has specifically called for "deconflicting" this with regards to Russian operations.  So it seams you are a bit off in saying she's calling for shooting down Russian planes.

 



#49 LJAd

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:53 PM

There is no proof that Assad is a war criminal : he is the legal head of state of Syria and what he is doing in his country is not the business of anyone in the US .

 

Besides, objectively Assad is an ally of the West :he is fighting against ISIS which is the enemy of the West and anyone who is indirectly/directly supporting ISIS is the enemy of the West .If he is a Western citizen, he is a traitor .

Hillary calls for a non fly zone , to prevent Russian and Syrian aircraft to attack ISIS, that means that she is a traitor of the West . 



#50 WW2HistoryGal

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 03:26 AM

I refuse to vote for Clinton or Trump. REFUSE. 

 

The rest of the world is laughing at us, and for good reason. These are the best the two parties could come up with? I'm an independent because I'd rather not be aligned with either party and I'd rather vote for the person (which is sadly becoming impossible to do).

 

I dunno. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach.


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