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Sicilian Invasion

Discussion in 'Italy, Sicily & Greece' started by GunSlinger86, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    When the Allies invaded Sicily in 1943, what types of fighter aircraft were they using for cover. I read that the Allies were using more modern, up-to-date, improved aircraft that bettered what the Axis had. Was the US operating newer P47s and P38s, or the older P40s and P39s? Also, I'm sure the British had upgraded Spitfires and Hawker fighters.
     
  2. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    There is an Op Husky Aircraft Orbat in the British Official History for the Mediterranean and probably 8in the USAAF history of the campaign.

    At this time the main RAF fighter over Sicily was the spitfire Mk V with some Mk IX, all operating from Malta. The Desert Air Force organisation is given here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Air_Force The "rear element based in Tripoli were P40 fighters/ fighter bombers and included the US 57 and 79 FG with P40s

    The US 31st and 52nd Fighter groups (FG) also flew Spitfire, as part of XII Support command, I think based in Malta. along with the 33 and 324th FG flying P40s. There were Mustangs present - but in their original USAAF role as A36 Dive bombers equipping the 27th and 86th Fighter bomber groups.

    If anything the Axis fighter aircraft were technically slightly better than the Allied. The German Me109G and Italian Fait G55 and Macchi 202 were comparable to the latest spitfires and better than the P40 and P39. The Fw190 was superior to all but the limited numbers of Spitfire IX.

    However, the allies had the numbers. In may the axis had around 1,200 serviceable aircraft (all operational types) from Sardinia to Greece facing 267 allied Squadrons - some 4-5,000 aircraft.

    The 57th FG was part of the Coastal airforce responsible for escorting convoys along the North African Coast. The P39 equipped 81 and 350 FG were also assigned this role.

    The 1st 14th and 82nd FG flew P38F (?) were part of the Strategic air force along with the 325nd FG in P40s.

    you really need to dig this out for yourself.
     
  3. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    All the P47s must have been in England.
     
  4. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    The P47 was first used in April 1943 in the ETO from the UK and first in the MTO in September 1943. The P47 was a high altitude fighter with a reasonable but not exceptionally long range. It made more sense to deploy it in the 8th rather than the 15th AF.
     
  5. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    The first P-47 were operational in England by the end of December 1941, 88 of them. There were 341 there by the end of June 1943. The first operational sortie was in March, April, or June - sources differ, but appears to be 8 April. :eek: The first in the MTO were operational in October 1943.
     
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    Do you mean Dec 42 rather than Dec 1941? That would fit with a few months work up in European skies (and weather) before first operational missions in April
     
  7. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, yes, it's what I get for posting too early in the morning before the coffee has taken effect.

    EDIT: And posting with an iPhone!
     
  8. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Sheldrake has posted that there was something around 1200 Axis aircraft in the MTO at the time of the Sicily invasion. I do have to wonder how "serviceable" those aircraft were. The Jagdwaffe had been quickly pulled out of N. Africa at the last minute, leaving much material and shops behind. The German pilots had to use the expedient of cramming their ground crewmen into the rear of their fighters in order to keep them from going into the bag. From what I've read their moral was pretty low as was their fighting capability. The German planes that escaped needed extensive maintenance. Fuel was low. The Italians were worse off. My thinking is that most of the Italian planes were not up to date and the ones that were, were few in number. That plus the fact that the Allies were energetically bombing enemy air fields. My impression of that battle was that the Germans scored a few bombing successes early on but failed to put a real dent in the invasion. Their efforts trailed off as time wore on. Also, the biggest problem the Allied fighters had was range and time over target, flying from N. Africa.
     
  9. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    From the book I have "The 50th Anniversary of the Second World War" Apparently the Axis only had 320 serviceable fighters in the range of Sicily.
     
  10. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    The Luftwaffe orbat for 17 may 1943 is here http://www.oocities.org/sturmvogel_66/LWJul42.html
    This shows a total of 1039 Luftwaffe aircraft of which 542 were serviceable
    Of these 218 were serviceable fighters. This was only a week after the surrender in North Africa

    This ignores Italian aircraft which played a more important part than is often imagined. Here is a link to the Regia Aeronautica Orbat http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/940IXAL.pdf

    The Reggio 2001 , MC 202 and MC205 were all fighter aircraft comparable to the Me109.
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I was lucky enough to be stationed in Sicily for three years. I hit all the beaches, and drove Patton's End Run.
     
  12. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Correction: According to the book I have, the Italians had 200 serviceable, and the Germans 320, so just over 500.
     
  13. harolds

    harolds Member

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    The following is quoted from David Baker's bio of Adolph Galland: "On Sicily the numerical imbalance made defeat inevitable, nevertheless the Luftwaffe poured men and aircraft into the area. The tally of single-engine fighters in the Mediterranean grew from 180 on 14 May to 380 on 3 July,... Fighter unit availability averages rose from 43 per cent to 49 percent; and despite the relatively limited resources Galland's Jagdflieger gave a good account of themselves in the closing weeks before the invasion...When the landings began on 10 July Galland had few usable airfields left for his fighters. II./JG51 was flown back to Sicily from Sardinia to join the crowded air battles that broke out all across the island. The army called for the fighters to carry out ground-attack sorties, splitting the available forces between that requirement and the need to blunt the massive air offensive. In just three days the Luftwaffe was effectively wiped out of Sicilian skies."
     
  14. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    According to Johannes Steinhoff, Sicilty was not Adolf Galland's finest hour. https://www.amazon.com/Straits-Messina-Johannes-Steinhoff/dp/0233963138
     
  15. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    As of 9 July 1943 the Regia Aeronautica had the following serviceable from units reporting (not all unit strengths reported) (Chris Dunning, Courage Alone: The Italian Air Force 1940-1943)

    On the mainland:
    72 fighters
    36 bombers
    15 dive bombers
    41 transports

    Sicily:
    163 fighters
    6 dive bombers
    39 maritime reconnaissance/bombers

    Sardinia:
    120 fighters
    28 maritime reconnaissance/bombers

    Total:
    355 fighters
    36 bombers
    21 dive bombers
    77 maritime reconnaissance/bombers
    41 transports
    530 total
     
  16. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    The strengths on 9th July or any single day, don't necessarily reflect the level of fighting or the number of aircraft deployed by the Axis during the period. These are the aircraft numbers after a six week air battle over Sicily. We also need to know how many aircraft were supplied to the Luftwaffe and RA over this period?
     
  17. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but they remain a benchmark. For example, II./JG 27 was reformed in Germany after being withdrawn from Africa on 6 December 1942 and went to Trapani and San Pietro on 27 february 1943, staying there till 20 June when they moved to Lecce, and then San Vito dei Normanni on 7 July, before returning to Germany on 1 August. They began 1 May with 49 Bf 109, lost 23 (9 to combat), received 24, and began June with 50, then lost 43 (16 in combat), received 26, and had 33 on 1 July.

    In any case, yes the Allied estimates were pretty much on the mark for operational strengths, about 530 Italian and around the same number of German, with a hundred or so in Greece.
     
  18. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    So besides upgraded Spitfires, Some P38s, upgraded P40s and upgraded P39s, The Allies didn't have that much of an advantage for cutting edge fighters. The book I read said the Allies had better performing, more modern fighters for the Sicily campaign.
     
  19. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    I skimmed through the operational and airfield histories on Sicily and it seems it wasn't so much the air combat that was the problem, it was the relentless pounding of the airfields by Allied bombers. It looks like all the Sicilian airfields were evacuated by around 12-13 July and many non-operational aircraft were destroyed in place. So the categorization of those lost "in combat" may be a bit hazy.

    Anyway, it seems to indicate the quality of the Allied fighter aircraft may have been a bit moot.
     
  20. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Allied Naval power was also decisive at Husky. Allies battleships took out tanks from the sea, from one account I read.
     

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