Germans got Panzerfaust idea from Allies!

I did some research on how the Germans took the bazookas they captured in the North Africa Campaign and boosted them into their deadly 88mm panzerschrek. I have found they did the same thing with the panzerfaust. Can you guess which US allied weapon? I believe it was the M9 early AT tank rifle grenade that could have also been picked up in Africa or maybe even early parts of the Normandy campaign and reversed engineered into the panzerfaust. There are very limited pictures of the M9 early at grenade online. The similarities are striking. I thought they might have got it from the piat but it is shaped differently. SHOCKING.

 

The shape is dictated by the requirements of such a charge/projectile.

If looking for roots of such rocket-propelled shaped charge rounds, Germany already had a reasonable heritage of recoilless stuff & fully understood shaped charges.
('Leichtgeschutz', should get you rolling on assorted projects going back to 1940-ish.)

Think it's a bit of a stretch to say there was direct 'copying' of a rifle grenade going on here. Maybe more of a shared technology. (While not denying the Schreck's more direct heritage, and things learnt from associated projectile/ballistics.)
Such charges are usually cone shaped, and the Key thing that made Faustpatrone/Panzerfaust unique was it's disposable nature and very cheap production.
It's often attractive to make assumptions on shape etc. in the evolution of weaponry, but even though bullets, shells, even tanks & aircraft, may be a similar shape, it's hard to assert direct connections based purely on looks.

 

I know wiki isn't the best place for accurate info but.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust says

''The Faustpatrone was much smaller in physical appearance than the better known Panzerfaust. Development of the Faustpatrone started in the summer of 1942''


That doesn't fit with your hypothesis. The Americans didn't land in North Africa until November 1942.
The Germans wouldn't have seen any until then.

 

Doesn't mean they acquired one from the war in Africa, maybe someone stole design planes or got 1 from normandy to be studied.

@ owen

Wikis dates may be wrong.
The 2nd part you posted which I didn't quote makes no sense, Germans still could have since we don't know just how they received or studied allied weapons such as this.

http://www.militaryitems.com/store/images/green-m11.jpg

 

eh ?
How would they get one from Normandy ?

Panzerfaust 30 appeared late 42 according to this.

View attachment 25176

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MuGsf0psjvcC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=Panzerfaust+30&source=bl&ots=K6ZFBdNEcK&sig=piEw9bYCYPAWBtpEOGGqPD3RMGM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibhp6DyLnQAhUDOSYKHeMpAwcQ6AEIWDAL#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Maybe Italy. Philippines. Who knows.

 

What Von Poop says is correct. I'd recommend heeding what he says.

 

They weren't in service in time to reach the Philippines early in the war. Like wise Italy wasn't invaded until 43 while the post above mentions German development started in the summer of 42. The bazooka's appearance may have stimulated the work on the German devices but the claim that they were based on it appears a bit shaky.

 

As a side note, take a look at the various anti-tank rifles (50 cal and 20mm) that everyone started the war with, and how quickly they became obsolete with the newer tanks coming online. What might work on the light tanks early in the war were completely useless as the medium tank became the main armor for all armies.

Taking that into consideration, it's not surprising that various shaped charge launchers kind of duplicate each other. There's only so many ways you can launch such a projectile from a man portable weapon. It's very simple engineering with limited options. The only one that really varies is the British Piat, and that only because the propellant was compressed air.

 

The Wehrmacht initially introduced the "Püppchen" to fire the projectiles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Raketenwerfer_43

Then they found out, that all the complexity of the Püppchen wasn't necessary. Most likely because the saw, what the US Army was using.
So i guess it is correct that they copied the american simplicity for their Panzerschrecks and Panzerfausts.

 

The Puppchen's a sort of latecomer to the German 'recoilless' family really.
Much depends on definitions, but while I'd agree that the Schreck is closely related to that rocket family of Puppchen, the Faust perhaps lies more closely in technological terms with things like LG40, 42 etc., and they entered service in 1940.
It's arguably marginal, but there is a difference between 'Rocket Propelled' & 'Propelling Charge' weapons.

 

Yes, that's true. The Panzerschreck was the simplified Püppchen.

The Püppchen wasn't recoilless. The mild recoil was simply absorbed by the weight and stability, an extra device wasn't necessary.

 

The opposite actually, Püppchen was the complicated Panzerschreck. It extended the range from 180 meters to 250 meters, but more importantly was more accurate. They were partner pieces, both beginning production in July 1943 with 10 Püppchen and 500 Panzerschreck completed. They both differed from the Panzerfaust in design principal and were considered weapons for issue whereas the Panzerfaust was considered a round of ammunition for issue.

 

The Püppchen was used in North Africa, the Panzerschreck was introduced in spring 1944.
Production of the Püppchen was halted when the drawbacks became obvious. Which was very soon.
The Püppchen wasn't near as mobile as the Panzerschreck and much more difficult to disguise. Aiming in different directions took much longer.

 

Sorry, but no. Manufacturer of the two began in July 1943...no Püppchen was used in North Africa. I suspect you are confusing it with the 7.5 cm Leichtgeschütz 40, which was deployed to North Africa with FJB Ramcke. The Püppchen was manufactured through February 1944 with 3,150 completed. Is eight months "very soon"? The Raketenpanzerbüchse was first deployed sometime after 5 October 1943; the Püppchen about the same time.

 

Looking at a Puppchen once in some museum, I forget where.
Really peculiar item.
I know hindsight is a marvelous thing, and not everything's apparent in the fog of the present, but it just seemed so odd to take the one massive advantage of a light tube with massive punch, and fit all that to a miniature field gun carriage. Sort of fascinating as to how nothing is really obvious to the weapon (or anything else) designer in a newish field .
The Pitt-Rivers museum in Oxford has roots in tracking 'evolution' of objects, specifically firearm locks. Suspect this is where my main interest in military technology lies - the evolution - what is the 'right', 'obvious' or 'least worse' solution, and how is that arrived at in the real world.
Light recoilless like the LG, Puppchen, Faust, Steilgrenate on PaK36, Bazooka, Piat, RPG2 etc. All being worked on at roughly the same time. All varying concepts, but all leading towards 'something'.

Anyway... Sorry for the ramble.
Errr. Returning to the 'faust.

A roof being constructed at Kummersdorf weapons range after Soviet capture.
The material?
Panzerfaust tubes, as so many were found in the area:
View attachment 25185

 

Ah, I found it. the text below says:
"A british officer displays a Püppchen which was captured in Tunisia 1943.
The low profile is easy to recognize. This rocket launcher....
Compaed to the RP 43 Series it was much more complicated and expensive to produce. The wheels could be removed if necessary.
"...inferior to the RP 43 even when it entered service."

 

Sorry, but the only evidence for that is the caption, which is incorrect. The photo was taken in Italy.

Yes, the Püppchen was more complicated than the Panzerschreck, did I not say it was?

 

No word about, where the photo was taken. The Püppchen was captured in Tunisia.
The Püppchen could be fired from inside buildings, which is a significant advantage.

 

Nice manuals for 'Schreck:
http://www.bergflak.com/psmanual.html

Along with other good stuff:
http://www.bergflak.com/index.html

(Really worth a stroll through his site. Some lovely details.)