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Chamberlain


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#1 bedhead

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 03:56 PM

I've heard that Britain's foolish prime minister mister Chamberlain inane meddling in the affairs of Europe before Germany's evasion of Poland made matters worse. That a German coop was waiting for Hitler to enter the Sudetenland but the Munich agreement squashed it. "Peace in our time"

#2 OpanaPointer

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 04:27 PM

Chamberlain was a (mostly) rational person trying to get a (mostly) irrational person to be rational. 


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#3 KJ Jr

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 05:15 PM

Chamberlain was a (mostly) rational person trying to get a (mostly) irrational person to be rational. 

 

Sums it up in one short sentence. OP, you should knit that on a pillow.


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#4 LRusso216

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 06:17 PM

I find OpanaPointer's analysis to be spot on. Chamberlain expected Hitler to act in a "normal" way. He thought he had acted for the good of Europe by brokering a deal. Hitler was anything but "normal".

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#5 green slime

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 06:36 PM

Why start a new thread?



#6 lwd

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 07:20 PM

That's a hint by the way that this topic has been discussed previously on this board.  Indeed there are several threads on it.  Of course thanks to this one we have Opana's well worded and succinct quote. 



#7 OpanaPointer

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 07:36 PM

Aw, shucks.

"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


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#8 OhneGewehr

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 09:02 PM

Hitler was disappointed by the Munich agreement. He regarded the Wehrmacht as already prepared for a war against France and Britain. Chamberlain delayed the war for a year, we will never know if this was important for the later outcome of the war.



#9 phylo_roadking

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 11:08 PM

yes we do ;) When the 1935-6 Air Estimates were passed by Cabinet and parliament in the UK, the layered Air Plan was for the RAF to be ready to fight a European war at the end of the European barley harvest in 1939. Traditionally, this released large numbers of farm labouring reservists for call-up ;)

 

So I've seen it argued on this and other bases that rather than being the arch-appeaser we've always been told he was - Chamberlain was in effect only buying time in the year from 1938 to 1939 for the completion of the RAF's rebuilding to the level at which it could fight a war - the level it was at in November 1918 ;)

 

There's only one problem with this - what Chamberlain thought of the Munich Agreement. And there's one IMO very telling argument that he thought he WAS indeed buying peace with the sacrifice of the Czechs. Not a year's breathing space - but "peace in our time". And it was his official Downing Street Christmas Card of 1938...

 

This didn't feature any seasons' greetings or jolly fat man in a red suit, or Victorian snow scene with leaded windows in little cottages. Just a simple black and white photograph - of the aircraft he flew back from Munich on! THAT'S how proud of the peacemaking he was ;) Not the breathing space-buying.


Edited by phylo_roadking, 01 December 2016 - 11:09 PM.

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#10 Kai-Petri

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 05:52 AM

And then there´s the Oster conspiracy...

 

https://www.amazon.c...r/dp/0060955252


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#11 OhneGewehr

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 04:09 PM

The Oster conspiracy was an amateur attempt to get rid of the Nazis at the wrong time. Even if Hitler could be killed, Göring would replace him.



#12 KJ Jr

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 07:25 PM

The Oster conspiracy was an amateur attempt to get rid of the Nazis at the wrong time. Even if Hitler could be killed, Göring would replace him.

 

And Goering would have been the same?


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#13 OpanaPointer

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 07:50 PM

And Goering would have been the same?

Goring had Hitler to keep him somewhat under control. If Big G had been the top dog things would have gone to Hell rather more quickly, I think. I don't know if his subordinates would have been able to rally 'round to take up the slack or not. The jailers at Nuremberg had to taper him off the morphine slowly to avoid causing his death by a non-approved method. 


"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


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#14 OhneGewehr

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 08:21 PM

Göring (or Hess) would soon become puppets of Himmler and Heydrich.

By the way: It was the other way round - Göring tamed Hitler, who was a gambler by nature.

 

After the Austria annexation, Hitler was at his peak of popularity. No one would understand an uprising by parts of the military. Even in summer 1944, the majority of germans followed Hitler.

 

When the war started in late 1938, would there be such a big difference? The Wehrmacht would have to fight against the Czechoslovakia and Poland in the East, no Skoda tanks, no oil from Russia. The point is: Not only the RAF improved its preparations for war. 


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#15 KJ Jr

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 08:46 PM

Goring had Hitler to keep him somewhat under control. If Big G had been the top dog things would have gone to Hell rather more quickly, I think. I don't know if his subordinates would have been able to rally 'round to take up the slack or not. The jailers at Nuremberg had to taper him off the morphine slowly to avoid causing his death by a non-approved method. 

 

I was being a tad facetious. I completely agree. Most certainly Himmler and Heydrich, IMO, would have battled it out. Although they were ideologically similar in many ways, they had sharp contrasts. Goering was in no way capable of commanding the Wehrmacht, running the nation and fending off other suitors. Not to mention he did not garner the respect he thought he did. 

 

I always wondered though. if Hitler was ousted by the conspiracy or at any other time, let's say after Barbarossa and the establishment of the Jewish pogroms, would the events have been the same? 


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#16 OpanaPointer

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 08:54 PM

I think if Hitler suddenly died the Night of the Long Knives would have been an interesting, but minor, event in National Socialist history. The polite term is "consolidating his position." 


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#17 KJ Jr

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 08:59 PM

I think if Hitler suddenly died the Night of the Long Knives would have been an interesting, but minor, event in National Socialist history. The polite term is "consolidating his position." 

 

In addition, I wonder how deep the NSDAP would have gotten into the heart of German politics if the head was chopped off?


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#18 OhneGewehr

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 09:25 PM

Goering was in no way capable of commanding the Wehrmacht, running the nation and fending off other suitors. Not to mention he did not garner the respect he thought he did. 

I am not so sure. Göring was the only high-ranked Nazi with a reputation of a war hero (successor of von Richthofen) and serious political experience (president of the german parlament before Hitler got to power). Himmler for example was a joke without the SS, he was a farmer and hardly known to the public in 1938. Heydrich was more dangerous and obviously an intelligent guy.

 

It was always a fault to underestimate Göring, because he was fat, conceited and had this ridiculous uniform fetish. He had a high IQ, was capable to think and argue logical and was one of the more realistic Nazis. Without Hitler, he surely would have tried to establish something like a monarchy with him as a king and Hitler as an icon. 

 

Rudolf Heß was Deputy Leader of the NSDAP. If Hitler was killed, he would be his successor as the Führer



#19 OpanaPointer

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 11:06 PM

I am not so sure. Göring was the only high-ranked Nazi with a reputation of a war hero (successor of von Richthofen) and serious political experience (president of the german parlament before Hitler got to power). Himmler for example was a joke without the SS, he was a farmer and hardly known to the public in 1938. Heydrich was more dangerous and obviously an intelligent guy.

 

It was always a fault to underestimate Göring, because he was fat, conceited and had this ridiculous uniform fetish. He had a high IQ, was capable to think and argue logical and was one of the more realistic Nazis. Without Hitler, he surely would have tried to establish something like a monarchy with him as a king and Hitler as an icon. 

 

Rudolf Heß was Deputy Leader of the NSDAP. If Hitler was killed, he would be his successor as the Führer

Hess was not a leader, he would have been a figure-head at best. That boy weren't none too smart. 


"One of our King Tigers could take five of your Shermans, but you always had six of them."


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#20 KJ Jr

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Posted 03 December 2016 - 03:23 AM

Ha ha. Hess.
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#21 GunSlinger86

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 01:08 AM

The Night of the Long Knives happened because The Hitler/Nazi clique felt Rohm was getting too powerful/popular and hungry for more revolution, getting there with or without Hitler.  If there wasn't a strong personality like Hitler for Rohm to compete with and guys like Himmler trying to kiss Hitler's ass by making up stuff about Rohm, I doubt there would have been a purge without Hitler.



#22 OhneGewehr

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 07:33 PM

I doubt there would have been a purge without Hitler.

Without Hitler, no one of the other Nazis ever would have been a person of historical importance.

 

Hitler had to choose between the SA and the Wehrmacht. And the Wehrmacht was simply easier to handle as the SA, which already had 3,5 million men (!). The Wehrmacht 100000 men. The SA expected influence and positions in gratitude for the street battles with the Commies.

Röhm wasn't very popular, the SA was widely regarded as a bunch of thugs, unemployed men and even criminals.   


Edited by OhneGewehr, 25 December 2016 - 07:36 PM.


#23 KJ Jr

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 09:03 PM

Without Hitler, no one of the other Nazis ever would have been a person of historical importance.

Hitler had to choose between the SA and the Wehrmacht. And the Wehrmacht was simply easier to handle as the SA, which already had 3,5 million men (!). The Wehrmacht 100000 men. The SA expected influence and positions in gratitude for the street battles with the Commies.
Röhm wasn't very popular, the SA was widely regarded as a bunch of thugs, unemployed men and even criminals.


I agree. The SA was also more obtainable than the Wehrmacht. Though much higher in numbers, the SA was a much more disorganized group. They had their strengths, but without the purge, Hitler and the NSDAP could not have gained ground. Politically it bolstered their appearance in the eyes of the military and resulted in support.
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#24 harolds

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:47 PM

Personally, I believe a coup by the Heer was a real possibility from about the time of the Rhineland occupation up until the conquest of France. Before then, a disaster would have made a coup politically possible. The Heer generals would have needed a justifiable reason they could take to the public for deposing Hitler. After the successful French campaign Hitler was untouchable. Even if successful, a new government wouldn't have the consent of the governed.

#25 KJ Jr

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 10:43 PM

Personally, I believe a coup by the Heer was a real possibility from about the time of the Rhineland occupation up until the conquest of France. Before then, a disaster would have made a coup politically possible. The Heer generals would have needed a justifiable reason they could take to the public for deposing Hitler. After the successful French campaign Hitler was untouchable. Even if successful, a new government wouldn't have the consent of the governed.


I can buy that. His commanders knew he was taking tremendous gambles, but it also didn't take a genius to ascertain that Europe wanted no part of aggressive action.

Edited by KJ Jr, 05 January 2017 - 10:43 PM.

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